Gunship over Gunboat arguments are silly on a couple of levels - the first being that the Gunboat is an imperial ship, and the Wookship is Rebel - it's also a new release not an ace or epic pack or anything - so it's not like it can directly address the X-Wing. There's a scheme to how new products are built and released. There is a pattern of the immense corporate machine to be followed here, one that is mapped out as much as a year in advance. As there's physical media to be printed involved, just ******* it all up to stick in something new is very hard. And for all those people complaining all these terribly uniconic ships coming out last I heard X-Wing was the best selling minis game in the world, over 40k even. So that has yet to make a serious dent in their market share, personal perceptions aside.

And then, once you get past all that stuff - one should remember X-Wing is a game first. You want just the cool ships you can buy some micromachines, but new material has to be built for a purpose in the game, not just "because people will buy it". That's how your game gets pretty bad pretty quick, releasing just things that people think looks pretty without bothering to actually plan what it will do in the game. The Auzituck is weird, sure (though I'll fight anybody critiquing the aesthetics of a HIND) but it's very clearly doing something relatively new, adding Reinforce to standard play with specific rules on how it works for large and small ships. It'll give rebels a double-crew upgrade which is the opposite of the styles in Imperial and Scum. So it'll be doing new things in the game space.

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

Also, lol, you talk about the gunship and then complain that we are stuck with ships that are unrecognisable to the general public...yeah the Gunship will CERTAINLY help that problem. Everyone recognises the Gunship from...uhm...which Star Wars film did it appear in again? Or was it in that new TV show Rebels?

I think it's very presumptuous and somewhat arrogant of you to assume Rebels isn't something for 'the core audience', there are also a lot of people who are diehard Star Wars fans and do watch (and enjoy) Star Wars Rebels. Yet you seem quick to want to dismiss those yet 'iconic' ships like the X-Wing should get love. I think the X-Wing is iconic as well, but the Ghost is just as iconic.

I will admit the Wookiee Gunship was a headscratcher...but at least it's a canon ship in a recent piece of Star Wars media and not some holdover from a 25 year old video game that while incredible and has so many fond memories for me, has aged terribly and people seem to put certain ships on the 'Iconic' pedestal when that term is very subjective. I mean in my opinion, there is nothing special about the gunboat at all.

Actually, I didn't even mention the gunboat. I hate that ugly thing and I played (and loved) that 23 year old game. But, players have been asking for it for ages. Also, it may not have been clear by my wording but I actually like the Rebels show. They just seem to be drawing heavily from it lately.

I remember that time people said a third faction would screw with the game.

Haha.

Wes Janson (28) + Veteran Instincts (1) + R5-P9 (3) + Integrated Astromech (0) => 32

Wedge Antilles (29) + Opportunist (4) + R2 astromech (1) + Integrated Astromech (0) => 34

Luke Skywalker (28) + Opportunist (4) + R2 astromech (1) + Integrated astromech (0) => 33

Total: 99 pts

Focus fire and have fun!

10 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

So... which is it? More canon ships doing well or more obscure ships from a 25-year-old video game?

The second one.

Well Star Wars hasn't been ever just about X-Wings and X-Wing never just about X-Wings! It is vast alternative universe with ton of cool stuff.

I guess I just have excellent group of friends whom I play X-Wing, they actually are trying so many different variations of squads that we never really end up playing "meta" on purpose. My friends "motto" is "I want to win with all ships and try out new stuff always"

10 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Sorry. I am pissed off.

Seriously FFG, whats so freaking difficult about putting some XWings into the XWing game?

I am seriously trying to make the T65 work with lists like Expertise - Luke , which sound promising first, until you realise that this 2-green, lousy dial, 1 straight red turn, 5 HP ship is going to be eaten alive by some unworthy toilet seat looking ships, as well as a lot of other power creep monsters.

Expertise on an x-wing really doesn't strike me as a great plan anyway. It's good on a couple ships, but too expensive for most ships that are only attacking once anyway. And with integrated astromech you have 6 health, not 5.

10 hours ago, Schu81 said:

I mean.. WTF? Why does a turreted ship have a white turn anyways? It doesnt even need one.

Why dont you FINALLY give us Luke , Wedge and co back into this game?

Wedge just won a store championship last weekend.

10 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Go ahead, give them a fix already. If they are OP afterwards... who cares? Id rather see tons of Luke s at tournaments than Rau and Dengar .

Why do you push Scum so much anyway?! Ill buy your stuff. Dont worry. Just bring more. But why do you seriously put a third faction, which is only a sidekick in the Star Wars universe, above Vader and the Imperials or Luke and the Rebels?

This SUCKS!

Xwing fix. NOW. Goddamnit.

And give us a Gunboat too, when the XWing fix is done.

Screw the gunboat. I'm tired of people asking for it in practically every post on the board...

7 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Slowly? We got past slowly a long time ago. At least the gunboat fanatics keep the screams to one thread...

The screaming maybe. Doesn't stop them constantly asking for it all the time in other threads...

7 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Basically, there's a lot going on, and rushing it will only make it worse. Besides, not everyone is going to be 100% satisfied 100% of the time. The game is called X-wing because... well because they didn't have a better name. Seriously. The argument I keep hearing is the game is called this, so it should be super strong. Why? It's just a name. It was chosen due to marketing.

Pretty much this. Even back in the first few waves the tie swarm was still better than the x-wings were.

6 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

Me neither but they're trying to attract the Star Wars Rebels kids. Meanwhile, their core audience is left wanting.

Kids aren't the only ones that like Rebels. And a lot of my favorite ships in the game are from that show.

6 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I like the Scurrg, I'll admit, but the rest of this wave is a big yawn. The X-wing does need a fix and scum needs dialed back a bit. Rogue One was a perfect opportunity to boost the T-65 but the window is slipping away into TLJ mania. Vader 's signature ship is still pretty meh even after a fix. Power creep killed the iconic characters and we're stuck with ships that are unrecognizable to the general public. I think that's why they're pushing the Rebels stuff so much lately. X-wings showed up in the trailer for Rebels Season 4. If we're ever getting a fix, it'll probably be a Rebels-based one since the Rogue One ship sailed.

Vader in the tie advanced was fantastic iwth the fix. he just got TLTed into oblivion almost immediately after...

6 hours ago, NakedDex said:

In defence of the gunboat, I think a lot of people are holding out hope that it's eventually arrival will herald the ultimate ordnance fix, as well as bringing in a ship that is a world apart from the standard Imperial style. A lot of it is nostalgia, but there's some solid arguments for that being a great "fix" ship, as well as a way to give them Imps a shake up.

The jumpmaster was the ultimtae ordnance fix. After multiple nerfs, triple uboats (or 2 uboats + 1 other ship) is STILL a fantastic list. Do you really want another OP alpha strike squad? I wouldn't argue with getting another non-tie variant at least.

To be fair the Jumpy wasn't the ordnance fix, it was just an unfortunately priced ordnance platform. An proper ordnance fix would mean TIE Punishers might hit the table, and Y/B-wings might actually be able to throw out some spike damage.

(Although really a fix for the Punisher would be a title that costs 4 points and says "you now have infinite ordnance. Go nuts")

12 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Sorry. I am pissed off.

Seriously FFG, whats so freaking difficult about putting some XWings into the XWing game?

I am seriously trying to make the T65 work with lists like Expertise-Luke, which sound promising first, until you realise that this 2-green, lousy dial, 1 straight red turn, 5 HP ship is going to be eaten alive by some unworthy toilet seat looking ships, as well as a lot of other power creep monsters.

I mean.. WTF? Why does a turreted ship have a white turn anyways? It doesnt even need one.

Why dont you FINALLY give us Luke, Wedge and co back into this game?

Go ahead, give them a fix already. If they are OP afterwards... who cares? Id rather see tons of Lukes at tournaments than Rau and Dengar.

Why do you push Scum so much anyway?! Ill buy your stuff. Dont worry. Just bring more. But why do you seriously put a third faction, which is only a sidekick in the Star Wars universe, above Vader and the Imperials or Luke and the Rebels?

This SUCKS!

Xwing fix. NOW. Goddamnit.

And give us a Gunboat too, when the XWing fix is done.

You are taking X-Wings and they make it into top winning lists (they made it to second place at Worlds this year) so they are in the game. The game would be very dull if all Rebels took were X-Wings because they are over powered. They seem pretty balanced to me. I think perhaps your gripe is you want to take Luke. Has he ever been competitive? There is only a 25% chance of rolling a focus per die and it only works on one of them. How often if that going to trigger? I've never even took his ability in HotAC. I don't thin the X-Wing as a ship is not broken and doesn't need a general fix. Maybe we need a new Luke ability - they reissued Poe so why not Luke?

Actually, I dont want the XWings to be overpowered, because I dont want anything in this game to be overpowered. I really hope for a great balancing, regarding all ships and factions.

My point was... if there would be an XWing fix someday, which gave XWings a slighty OP ability, such as Tie Defenders before they got nerfed again, it would be much better to see iconic ships on the table than toilet seats.

Anybody saying "but Biggs is in the game, so are XWings" seems to be misunderstanding this whole argumentation on purpose.

You know very well, that the XWings dial sucks very much. Its action efficiency sucks. It is slightly overcosted. It has got too few hitpoints for its 2 green dice, so its survivability sucks too. Biggs sees play because he will take the punishment to keep your REAL fighters alive. Hes just the one who gets to catch the bullet.

22 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

You are taking X-Wings and they make it into top winning lists (they made it to second place at Worlds this year) so they are in the game. The game would be very dull if all Rebels took were X-Wings because they are over powered. They seem pretty balanced to me. I think perhaps your gripe is you want to take Luke. Has he ever been competitive? There is only a 25% chance of rolling a focus per die and it only works on one of them. How often if that going to trigger? I've never even took his ability in HotAC. I don't thin the X-Wing as a ship is not broken and doesn't need a general fix. Maybe we need a new Luke ability - they reissued Poe so why not Luke?

First, you can't point at Biggs and say X-Wings are in the game.

The issue is that there isn't much of a place for straight jousters in the game. Between Whisper, turrets (TLT in particular), and ordnance (am I missing anything else?) how do you "fix" the X-Wing to competitive levels? Integrated Astromech was at least 4 squad points of free value, and it still wasn't enough. How far can you push it? We all saw what happened with x7 Defenders. WHAT HAPPENS TO BIGGS??

I'm sure a fix is possible. It's just crazy tricky.

Oh, and Luke (DTF + R2-D2) was extremely competitive through Wave 3 (before Whisper). There's a 44% chance that Luke's ability procs, EVERY time he's shot at. 58% at range 3. I do hope we get a new Episode VIII Luke. Who knows if he steps into a fighter though...

16 hours ago, Schu81 said:

the name of this whole game.

Truth be told, I never liked such a specific, one-sided name. They could at least call it "X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter" like the old video game. Even better would be something like "Star Wars: Dogfight", which would later find a perfect counterpart in "Star Wars: Armada".

If, years from now, they'll ever make a brand new version of the game (backward-compatible with the miniatures, of course), I hope they'll change the name. That would also solve the perceived issue of not having the one titular ship as the real protagonist of the games.

I haven't looked at the forums for like a week and a half. the first thing I see when i log in a this thread crying about X-WINGS NEED TO BE FIXED NOOOOWWWW!!

I know everyone will think I'm being the negative Nancy, but threads like this are why no one uses these forums.

4 hours ago, Mynock Delta said:

Oh, and Luke (DTF + R2-D2) was extremely competitive through Wave 3 (before Whisper). There's a 44% chance that Luke's ability procs, EVERY time he's shot at. 58% at range 3. I do hope we get a new Episode VIII Luke. Who knows if he steps into a fighter though...

I'd love to see luke go dark side and we get a F/O luke in a modified x wing. Oh the delicious tears from the rebels, a better ship in the opposite faction. Think I've seen that but where...

18 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Go ahead, give them a fix already. If they are OP afterwards... who cares? Id rather see tons of Lukes at tournaments than Rau and Dengar.

5 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Actually, I dont want the XWings to be overpowered, because I dont want anything in this game to be overpowered. I really hope for a great balancing, regarding all ships and factions.

So... which is it?

I also am personnaly disappointed as FFG had two wonderful opportunities (R1 and 40th of ANH) to help rebel xwings and ywings, but let them pass. In the meantime, we get more kids show *** nonsense.

1) This game lives as long as people buy new stuff. If the new stuff is better than the old stuff, people buy a lot more of the new stuff. Hence an easy way to make money is to simply print better stuff. This can give rise to power creep, which can be handled in a good or bad way. Unfortunately, FFG hasn't really found a good way to deal with this. Simple and expected part of the game. Earlier stuff will almost always be phased out (I myself liked the way this was done in the (very) old CCG Middle Earth: The Wizards. Core set was still relevant when the game eventually folded lots of expansions later). Marketing wise it makes sense to release all the well known stuff first. Hence all the well known stuff will suck after a few years if the game is successful.

2) Thematically, the T-65 isn't really a very good specialized ship for any particular role. It's a "jack of all trades"-ship and that role is difficult to fit in in a small dog fighting game where specialized ships will almost always be better. It shouldn't be as hard hitting as a B-wing, should be as maneuverable as an A-wing or as sturdy as a freighter. If the T-65 would generally be better than all those ships it would only make sense to fly the T-65 and that game would get boring very fast.

3) The game has a huge problem with maneuver dials. These cannot easily be "fixed" because you have to either make a totally new dial (will probably force a lot of rebalancing issues with other dials, and will probably cause a headache for most casual players) or give the ship lots of repositioning abilities but these usually require actions (if upgrades, they will probably also be available to almost all other ships). Once set, a maneuver dial is pretty much fixed. A green maneuver in the beginning was at a premium but power creep has given now given us ships with an abundance of greens and we're starting to get white s-loops/K-turns in some (ok, everyone except rebels) factions. The T-65's maneuver dial needs a major upgrade to be effective.

4) If you want to fly X-wings, fly T-70's. Triple (or even quad vanilla) T-70's are viable even in a tournament if flown well against moderate opposition (but I understand you really want to fix the T-65 and the pilots from the movies).

I agree it would be fun to fix the T-65 (but obviously not make it OP or anything) but so far FFG hasn't been very interested in fixing old ships instead of releasing new ones. They could easily have released upgrade kits (new pilots, upgrade cards and maneuver dials) but my guess is without ships they wouldn't get enough people to but them (most casual players would just proxy the new stuff). They could easily have released new sets like the imperial/rebel aces (I liked these a lot) but then again new ships sell better than old ones (since people already have the old stuff and again would only use the old ship models with the new (proxied) cards).

I guess what I'm saying is that commercially speaking, fixing the T-65 is pretty low on FFG's list of priorities. If you want to put it higher up, vote with your wallet and stop buying the new stuff until they fix the old stuff.

PS. One major gripe I have with the game is that large ships (specifically the jumpmaster) are way more maneuverable than the small stuff, which should be a lot better since they are designed to be dog fighters (most anyway). With engine upgrade on a large ship it really has no problems zipping around asteroids or outmaneuvering most small stuff. I really like the Lambda shuttles dial, that's how most large ships should have been IMHO.

On the one hand, the next X-Wing expansion will probably have articulating wings.

On the other, the X-Wing doesn't need a fix.

1 hour ago, Powermind said:

I agree it would be fun to fix the T-65 (but obviously not make it OP or anything) but so far FFG hasn't been very interested in fixing old ships instead of releasing new ones. They could easily have released upgrade kits (new pilots, upgrade cards and maneuver dials) but my guess is without ships they wouldn't get enough people to but them (most casual players would just proxy the new stuff). They could easily have released new sets like the imperial/rebel aces (I liked these a lot) but then again new ships sell better than old ones (since people already have the old stuff and again would only use the old ship models with the new (proxied) cards).

I guess what I'm saying is that commercially speaking, fixing the T-65 is pretty low on FFG's list of priorities. If you want to put it higher up, vote with your wallet and stop buying the new stuff until they fix the old stuff.

I hear this arguments quiet often. It´ is all a matter of making it worthwile for players to buy such a pack. Nobody, really nobody, can tell me that a card only pack with upgrades and pilot cards will cost more in production than a blister with a model!

They could include NEW pilots for old ships in this way - so if you want to fly them you have to buy them. At least for tournaments. Such a pack could have revised cards with errata included. And if they included some upgraded maneuver dials no one can find excuse not to buy this stuff.

I would gladly pay for new pilots like Ciena Ree (Interceptor Pilot from Armada), Morna Kee (VT-49), Evaan Verlaine (Y-Wing), General Merrick (X-Wing) and Crewcards like K-2SO (how could the dare to forget him in the U-Wing)...

17 hours ago, Elavion said:

First of all, you egocentrics, not everyone is playing the game because it's star wars. I, as well as many, many other players came to the game attracted to the great ruleset (+ well painted minis with no assembly, short games etc.) not because it's some 4 decades old franchise. I don't give a **** if the ship I'm flying was the only one in the original trilogy or if it never made it to the screen. If it's a good looking piece of plastic and it's got a fun set of rules backing it up I'm good.

Wouldn't an X-Wing fix be a win-win then? We get a much desired fix to a beloved ship and you get new game pieces for your toolbox.

17 hours ago, Ebak said:

While I agree I'd like to see variety. This is a very slippery slope. Of course, it should matter if they are OP. The X-Wing should not get a free pass because it is "iconic". "Iconic" means nothing when it comes to the game design. Now, this isn't to say the X-Wing doesn't need help, I think it does but it should be a carefully balanced and considered due to the fact that I don't want you to take an X-Wing and it automatically be a good list.

I don't think @Schu81 is asking for an OP fix. I'm pretty sure he's just saying that if they accidentally over-did it a little like they did with Imperial Veterans he wouldn't be upset.

11 minutes ago, Bullox said:

I don't think @Schu81 is asking for an OP fix. I'm pretty sure he's just saying that if they accidentally over-did it a little like they did with Imperial Veterans he wouldn't be upset.

20 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Go ahead, give them a fix already. If they are OP afterwards... who cares? Id rather see tons of Lukes at tournaments than Rau and Dengar.

Need I say more?

I'm not opposed to the idea of fixing the T-65 at some point, but it should not be a priority. And I'm sick of SW weebs spamming threads like this one, glorifying the X-wing as the most important ship in the game.

Thx @Bullox

Thats exactly what I meant.

I think Mattman and Elavion actually understood this quite well, too.....

18 hours ago, Elavion said:

First of all, you egocentrics, not everyone is playing the game because it's star wars. I, as well as many, many other players came to the game attracted to the great ruleset (+ well painted minis with no assembly, short games etc.) not because it's some 4 decades old franchise. I don't give a **** if the ship I'm flying was the only one in the original trilogy or if it never made it to the screen. If it's a good looking piece of plastic and it's got a fun set of rules backing it up I'm good.

Yeah, well, there is a thread around here that shows you are outnumbered about 2 to 1. Star Wars is a key element of this game and it needs to stay that way. You will be unaffected if the game is good AND Star Wars, but 2/3 of players will be unhappy if the game is good but NOT about Star Wars.

4 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

Even better would be something like "Star Wars: Dogfight", which would later find a perfect counterpart in "Star Wars: Armada".

If, years from now, they'll ever make a brand new version of the game (backward-compatible with the miniatures, of course), I hope they'll change the name. That would also solve the perceived issue of not having the one titular ship as the real protagonist of the games.

I like that idea.

And everybody is affected if the game is terrible, but about star wars.