Considering my local group of player,

we have the feeling that empire/orc are the strongest factions and chaos/dwarf the weakest factions (nevertheless it´s just a feeling).

In particular, orc rush or agro-control is unstoppable when the opponent try to develop his quest and his kingdom phase,

of course due to the vomit/ and the big orc...

But if the orc player´s opponent try to blitz, even if the deck is not built for that (an standard dwrf deck for example), the orc faction can sometimes be defeat.

I just want to know if you have the same feeling: is it absolutely necessary to play blitz against an orc deck ?

I think it's a very bad idea to blitz against an orc deck, since they have the cheapest hitters in the game.

Troll Vomit isn't really a problem in most cases, since it's kill orcs too. Grimgor could be dangerous, but you could recver fast (especially if you used bth units and supports fr economy, and you have some cheap permanents in hand)

Againts orcs just slow down and stop their horde (even let some damage come, or even a zone to burn) while increasng your kingdom and quest... they will eventually run out of steam, and you could win the war of attrition

Cain_hu said:

as far I have tested building in kingdom or quest is useless as grimor or vopit destroy merely everything

vopit = vomit, soory

I only buy 2 of every deck, so my experience is based on that, but Orcs can be defeated.

Right now I'm playing with Dwarfs, and the key is to use tactics that deflect damage or cancel all damage. You can use Demoralize to deflect 2, and I have 3 of those in my deck. You can use Franz's Decree to stop a unit from attacking. You can destroy attacking units with Grudge Thrower Assault. Cancel all damage using Master Rune of Valaya after Battle. Move units using Forced March. Also, use Vaul's Unmaking to destroy Attachment Cards, handy if you see a Choppa come out.

I just finished putting together an Orc Deck and will play it against the Dwarfs tonight. We'll see how it does, but if you are having trouble with beating Orcs, I would try a Dwarf Deck, fill it with tactics you can use to delay the Orcs onslaught, and I think you will like the results.

smalldwarf said:

Vomit : You are doing something wrong, if yo are more unit dependant than the orcs...

Grimgor : He is dangerous, but for hs cost it's ok... could be worked around.

Just keep some spare units and supports in hand.

When I say , do not develop the kingdom or the quest, it´s more just the minimum...

And thks for all your comments^^

I only buy 2 of each as well - i dont play in tournies or anything, but i have 4 decks that i build the best that i can. Empire has a REAL hard time with the Orc blitz. Chaos / Dark Elf deck i run fares better with corruption + sniping, but still hard to win. the Dwarf deck, however, usually wins. Helpful cards being: Master Rune of Dismay, capital healing,

Surprise Assault indirect damage (they are already all damaged up so they dont take much),

Zhufbar Eng./Veteran Sellswords/Dwarf Miner sacced for Dwarf Ranger grudge combos with Grudge Thrower, using that damage to damage capital.

I try to attack their Kingdom Zone hard off the bat then move on to their Quest Zone. I defend Battlefield & Kingdom; my Quest burns first..."Mr. Durgnar, line 1"

Master Rune of Valaya & Grudge Thower Assault together or separately at the right time...

Also, pretty soon a Skaven/Chaos corrupting deck should give problems,

hope that helps

I regularley play with and againdt Orc rush decks as fast as they can be built, they are total beatable. If they get good starting hands, which they often will, they win, but well rounded decks can beat them.

The biggest mistake I see players make facing orc rushes is "panicing" and reacting to the orcs.

You have to play cool and collected and be as objective as heck, only block if you absolutley must. I win many games vs orcs well on the brink of destruction, you just got to hang in there.

As a side comment, I see some players say they buy 2 sets, but thats ok cause they do not play in tourneys. I say that 2 sets of everything is plenty. You do not need three of awsome card X to win. I agree that having only one of some of the really good cards and lack of key "theme" units can make it tough, but if you are building a 50 card deck, you should have no trouble building good decks with doubles of your big cards and finding compariable filler, with two core sets and two of each battlepack, its not like you will be running with crap cards if you do not have threes..

RE Troll vomit. If your deck is a nice mix of unit and support, you can be in a position that trol vomit hurts the orcs more then you, I have been there myself at times, where I stablized the situation, orcs troll vomit cause they have no place to attack in srengh and I snip everything that comes into play, they troll vomit to clear the board, sucks for me, but THEY have too lopw a card draw and kingdom build up to recvoer faster then me, and I am set up again before they are. Just cause I have 6-8 kingdom points and can big units down again right away.

Some times I will keep a good unit in hand if the situation looks like a troll vomit is becoming an attractive option for the orcs.

I didn´t agree with everything, in particular the strategy of growth in our side without take care of the orc deck is doing...

you will be dead, for sure, if the orc deck is well build.

I agree, on the fine balance to find between the growth in defense and attack, try to defense for stop him, and attack quicky because an orc deck has NO defense.

specialy on attack quickly

I have proven too many times vs too many players with orc rushes, that you CAN stabilize the situation. I just played a best out of 7 last night vs an orc deck that is INSANE fast. As good and in some cases better then any rush deck posted. I lost 4, but won 3. And that is about the ratio that comes up a lot with my chaos/DE deck.

I CAN build a deck that always beats the orc rush, but I wanted to find a well rounded balanced deck that can deal with a varity of oppenents and still beat the orc rush.

I will not run arround telling players its easy, it take a cool collected player with experience on EXACTLY how to play, when to block, when not to etc to beat them. I have done it way too many times to expect the convention it can;t be done.

And no one can tell me I am not playing against fast enough orc decks, I play vs exact models of some of the ones you see here. Nor can I be told my oppenents are not playing them right or are not experienced enough. I play vs about 15-20 different oppenents, some of them hardcore, 3X of everyset, constant deck tuning, and play well over 30 actuall games a week.

I am not trying to say I am the best or anything like that, but just that my experience is pretty wide ranging, and I accnoledge that the orc rush is very difficult to beat, I in fact would get tired of the game if I had to play against them all the time myself, BUT the deck is totaly beatable, and beatable enough that I feel there is no "problem" with it.

One thing that IMO takes the credibility away from the "Orcs can be beaten" camp, is that when a post like this comes up, there will be IMO some BAD advice for beating them mixed in with the good! SO when the "Orcs are unbeatable" poster reads them, there may be an inclinaction to ignore it all, cause obviously they do not know what they are taking about syndrome, gets applied to the whole thread.

I agree you can't just build up and hold them off. IF you do not have some means of unit removal yourself, they will sonner rather then latter get a WAAAGH going, and even a small handfull of units is now running you down with 36 points + of damage.

My Chaos/DE posted list often beats the rush. All it takes is an oppeneing hand with marudars, or armourires and/or innovation. Give me 5-6 points on the 2nd turn and a snipper unit in hand to on the third, a seduction or need blood card in the mix to buy you a point or two... and its all over for the orcs.

Innovation on my hand on the 1st turn can give me a vile sorc in the quest zone on the first turn, I get that play, the orc rush has no chance in hell, did it last night in one of those games. Orc rush player was telling ME I had a chessy cheaten deck, and told me how broken the vile sorc was, all in goof ufn of coarse, but my point is made!

As an aside, looking at the current mix of DE cards, I am pretty sure DE will be the bane deck to the rush, we will not have these posts anymore when the next big expasion comes out.

hmm small dwarf, if you think that attacking the orcs back is nessary, it tells me something. You do NEED a unit controll element going on, but attacking the orcs back is infinitly less important then stablizing the situation, you need to get a get up where they can;t get anycards into play for more then a turn, and keep there unit count in the BF down to 2 or less! You for sure need to attack back as soon as possible, you got to win before troll vomit comes arround and sets the reset button, but you have to stablize the front.

I have won lots of games with one zone buring and 6-7 hit points and clining on with developmetents in the other.

You never just walk over the rush orcs, it wil always be an close match, unless you get a vile sorc out on the first turn.......

we have different point of view, yours is insteresting, of course. In your case, I believe it´s more easy to stabilize when it´s chaos vs orc,

nevertheless I believe that this is good strategy to lose a match .

To put in perspective, my group of player is very bad quality, that´s why we understand nothing, but we try to watch "yu-giho" for

make great progress^^

I agree re chaos. They are better at stablizing the situation then the other races, but I have beaten rush decks with the other races as well, but its tough.

I will repeat, it takes ALOT for skill and experience to play against an orc deck then with one, orc rushes play themsevles pretty much, BUT a player that does everything right WILL CAN and DOES beat them.

WHY STABLIZATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN COUNTERATTACK

When trying to survive an orc rush, you have these priorities, in this order.

1) Keep one zone alive- obvious I know

2) Remove the orc units, or block the damage- Chaos can do the first, dwarvs can do the 2nd with toughness, empire with unit moving, although the latter two lose units in the process. Order has access to cards that can do the latter

3) Have options avaible to do number 2 - THIS is the reason you do not counterattackl, without income and card options, orcs will outdeploy you, and you lose, if you can;t beat the orc rush its BECAUSE you are trying to counter attack to early, they will burn you faster then you can burn them. You need a good income pool, and a mittfull of cards in hands to deal with the orcs, if you are dropping units in the battlefield in a failed bid to out damage the orcs. No you need high income pool and good card draw.

Once you have stablized, as I put it, (keep in mind I am not talking a total stablization, just that you have slowed down the bleeding.) THEN and ONLY THEN can you afford to start dropping units into the battlefield and attacking the orcs back.

Actually I did a play by play vs an orc rush deck I beat in another post, I will give you the link.

One little trick you may or may not know, sometimes if blocking or droping a dev can save you a burn, its worth it cause they have to attack that zone again, and that extra turn is all you need.

Small dwarf, in one of your early posts you mentioed that fighting orc blitz with a blitz is the only way, YET that told me you are on the wrong track, cause as another mentioned orcs do it better.

Do not try to beat orcs at there own game, you beat them by doing your game. Perhaps I will get arround to writting another play by play, but I beat them enough to know. We are not talking theory hammer, but real experience. I did lose a best oput of 7 vs an orc deck two nights ago, but it was THAT close.

thks for all,

I have made a mistake to use the word "blitz", It´s more develop to the minimum and attack ASAP.

I will build a chaos deck soon, and then I will follow your advice, I have nothing to loose.

but I confirm this method works for several reason:

1) less you develop, lower is the effect from the big grimbor and the vomit.

2) An orc deck has NO defense (if it´s a rush - blitz deck...), and he don´t care about the defense, because he never stop to attack .

3) defense a minimum, to limit his damage (in average he has already bring 2 to 6 damage to the capital at the first turn... if he don´t start... so)

4) the troll vomit has only one function, bring every player back to the starting point: at this point the orc faction is always better

5) attack a maximum because all damage are irreversible.

that´s a stupid technique, but that´s the better that we have found

smalldwarf said:

works in the chance at least you have a chance to win

smalldwarf said:

Could you please post a balanced(not a meta-game deck) deck that can beat more that 50 % of the time a "control" orc or a "blitz" orc deck.

Because where i live dwarf deck are the weakest and orc are powerfull too

Fair enough. I would not agree with not developing. Troll vomit dosn;t effect developments, and troll vomit will only make the orcs position better if you don't have a good set of supports in the kingdom zone.

Now if your orc oppenents are constantly getting troll vomit and following up with grimgor right away, I say its time to start checking there shirt sleeves!

I agree about them hitting for 4-6 damage 1st or 2nd turn, that would be about average.

another question for you.

with your deck chaos/DE sniper, have you some problems against empire ?

how do you proceed for survive against a jugement at the third turn ?

because it´s a never ending problem for some chaos player in my group.