This came up in a bull session after a game. I chuckled at first but when I started looking at the rules and doubt set in. Here it is. If rerolling dice is considered modifying and the Defender has the chance to mod attack dice first, shouldn't the reroll from the Target Lock be done after the Defender has a chance to mod the dice?

Have I been playing this wrong for two plus years?

Edit: Rules Reference Guide, Page 5

Defender modifies Attack Dice first. Effects like Elusiveness, R7 and M9-G8 make an attacker reroll before the attacker can spend a target lock to modify dice. Dice rerolled from the defender's modifications cannot be rerolled by any effect the attacker has, but they can be modified again in other ways.

You've been doing it wrong.

14 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Defender modifies Attack Dice first. Effects like Elusiveness, R7 and M9-G8 make an attacker reroll before the attacker can spend a target lock to modify dice. Dice rerolled from the defender's modifications cannot be rerolled by any effect the attacker has, but they can be modified again in other ways.

You've been doing it wrong.

Forget about Elusiveness and the mechs. Just your plain old Taget Lock. Myself and everyone else I know of have been using the following sequence.

1) attacker rolls dice.

2) attacker spends TL and rerolls dice.

3) defender mods dice. Whatever ability whether pilot or upgrade card.

4) attacker mods dice. Focus or Guidance Chips as an example.

It's this sequence that was called into question by the RRG on Page 5. With rerolls being mods and the defender modding attack dice first the question was asked if the TL should be spent after the defender has a chance to modify dice. Step 2 would be removed in the above sequence and step 4 would include spending the Target Lock and then the focus token.

Is this one of FFGs inconsistencies that pop up from time to time?

There is no inconsistency. This was always like that. Rerolling is a modification and done on the modification step.

If it was done before, M9-G8 would be really really bad... And the "this dice cannot be reroll" part would be pretty useless on Sensor Jammer.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

This came up in a bull session after a game. I chuckled at first but when I started looking at the rules and doubt set in. Here it is. If rerolling dice is considered modifying and the Defender has the chance to mod attack dice first, shouldn't the reroll from the Target Lock be done after the Defender has a chance to mod the dice?

Have I been playing this wrong for two plus years?

Edit: Rules Reference Guide, Page 5

Yes.

The other guy always modifies your dice before you get the chance to.

32 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Yes.

The other guy always modifies your dice before you get the chance to.

Because it's after 10 PM, I need to make absolutely sure I'm reading this correctly.

1) Attacker rolls dice.

2) Defender mods dice by any ability available.

3) Attacker spends Target Lock to reroll dice if able.

4) Attacker spends Focus token to mod dice.

This is what you guys are saying, right?

6 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Because it's after 10 PM, I need to make absolutely sure I'm reading this correctly.

1) Attacker rolls dice.

2) Defender mods dice by any ability available.

3) Attacker spends Target Lock to reroll dice if able.

4) Attacker spends Focus token to mod dice.

This is what you guys are saying, right?

Yes. Steps 3 and 4 can be resolved in either order. Usually you want to spend the TL first, but there are some situations (like using R4 Agromech) where you'd do it the other way around.

I remember this rule as the owner of the dice always having the last say.

1 minute ago, fhdz said:

Yes. Steps 3 and 4 can be resolved in either order. Usually you want to spend the TL first, but there are some situations (like using R4 Agromech) where you'd do it the other way around.

I remember this rule as the owner of the dice always having the last say.

Ok, then we have a problem. There's a change from the Red core set rules to the Blue. An omission is a better description. The Red set rules has the attacker spending the Target Lock immediately after rolling attack dice. There's an example given with illustrations. The same type of example is in the Blue set but Target Locks are not part of the example. This is why I asked the question.

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

There is no inconsistency. This was always like that. Rerolling is a modification and done on the modification step.

If it was done before, M9-G8 would be really really bad... And the "this dice cannot be reroll" part would be pretty useless on Sensor Jammer.

I'm only referring to the timing of spending the Target Lock for rerolls. This was the only "step" that was questioned.

Just now, Stoneface said:

Ok, then we have a problem. There's a change from the Red core set rules to the Blue. An omission is a better description. The Red set rules has the attacker spending the Target Lock immediately after rolling attack dice. There's an example given with illustrations. The same type of example is in the Blue set but Target Locks are not part of the example. This is why I asked the question.

Yeah, but in the core set there are no ways for either the attacker or defender to modify the other's dice. They're just skipping over that step because it doesn't happen. Keep in mind that the core set rules are for totally new players, so the example is probably intended to illustrate a very basic attack, showing the ways dice can be modified.

What effects are you having that have the defender modifying the attack dice? As I recall there are very very few of those (and mostly they suck, so no one ever uses them) so it shouldn't come up, basically, ever.

1 minute ago, Forgottenlore said:

What effects are you having that have the defender modifying the attack dice? As I recall there are very very few of those (and mostly they suck, so no one ever uses them) so it shouldn't come up, basically, ever.

Sensor Jammer is one that comes to mind.

The question was brought up by a potential new player. He saw us roll attack dice then spend a target lock to reroll some of them, followed by a defender doing a mod (hit to focus) then the attacker spending a focus to flip the eyeball back to a hit. The question was asked if rerolls are considered modifications (which they are) then why are target locks spent before the Defender Modifies Attack Dice step in the attack sequence?

13 minutes ago, fhdz said:

Yeah, but in the core set there are no ways for either the attacker or defender to modify the other's dice. They're just skipping over that step because it doesn't happen. Keep in mind that the core set rules are for totally new players, so the example is probably intended to illustrate a very basic attack, showing the ways dice can be modified.

If you go beyond the Quick Start Guide to the Advanced Rules, target Lock and Tokens are explained and used,

I think this is why FFG added the timing chart to the FAQ. Previously. The ability of a defender to modify the attacker's dice and attacker to modify defender's dice didn't exist.

8 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

If you go beyond the Quick Start Guide to the Advanced Rules, target Lock and Tokens are explained and used,

Okay, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that there are no abilities that could be used to illustrate the situation that we're talking about here. It's not like the core rules are telling you to use your TL before Sensor Jammer. Whatever example is in those rules is consistent with the current rules: just because you can sometimes use a TL immediately after rolling doesn't mean that's always the case.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure, but I feel as if the original core set rules did account for the possibility, and it says under the "Modify Attack/Defence Dice" steps the order in which modifications occur. It's possible that I'm thinking of the TFA core set, though.

Just now, USCGrad90 said:

I think this is why FFG added the timing chart to the FAQ. Previously. The ability of a defender to modify the attacker's dice and attacker to modify defender's dice didn't exist.

Maybe, but I think it had more to do with the "After Attacking and After Defending" abilities that started cropping up and their interaction with multiple attacks.

Ah-ha. I happen to still have a copy of the original rulebook handy.

page 11, under "Modify Attack Dice" is pretty clear

Quote

If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker.

emphasis is FFG's

it then immediately (in the same section) explains how TLs work

The next page, in the sidebar on "Modifying Dice Results" also makes it pretty clear that rerolls are a modification.

Like was said, the example just doesn't include any abilities that involve the defender modifying attack dice and so it's not mentioned in the example.

5 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Ah-ha. I happen to still have a copy of the original rulebook handy.

page 11, under "Modify Attack Dice" is pretty clear

emphasis is FFG's

it then immediately (in the same section) explains how TLs work

The next page, in the sidebar on "Modifying Dice Results" also makes it pretty clear that rerolls are a modification.

Like was said, the example just doesn't include any abilities that involve the defender modifying attack dice and so it's not mentioned in the example.

Huzzah! Mystery solved.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, then we have a problem. There's a change from the Red core set rules to the Blue. An omission is a better description. The Red set rules has the attacker spending the Target Lock immediately after rolling attack dice. There's an example given with illustrations. The same type of example is in the Blue set but Target Locks are not part of the example. This is why I asked the question.

Forget about the example because the Academy Pilot in question has no ability that would allow it to modify the Rookie's attack dice. Hence the target lock reroll straight after the initial results are rolled. So it's by no means any kind of precedent.

If you go pack a few pages (to page 11), we have:

Quote

3. Modify Attack Dice
During this step, players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice. This includes adding die results, changing die results, and rerolling dice (see “Modifying Dice Results” on page 12).
If a player wants to resolve multiple modifying abilities, he resolves them in the order of his choosing. If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker.

The last sentence is the one that's relevant. This process hasn't been changed from the original rulebook to the TFA rulebook.

I have a feeling that a lot of us have been doing this wrong for awhile.

It's not 'wrong', just that in most games there's no need to pause for the defender to modify first. If you both know the lists, then you can just barrel through to the lock/focus.

In games I've played where myself or the opponent has had 'defender modifies reds' abilities, we've known to pause and let them happen first.

9 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

It's not 'wrong', just that in most games there's no need to pause for the defender to modify first. If you both know the lists, then you can just barrel through to the lock/focus.

In games I've played where myself or the opponent has had 'defender modifies reds' abilities, we've known to pause and let them happen first.

I'm pretty sure of being guilty of rolling, spending a TL and then having the Defender do his mod. I really need to pay attention the next time I'm facing a squad with defensive mod abilities. I think it has slipped by unnoticed more than once.

The only time I used Sensor Jammer, I played it right. My opponent used Lock only and after a couple of attack, he understood the lesson and started using Focus. Each time I was, sorry, you can't reroll the EYE with your Target Lock.

It's on the opposite side of the order chart, but Juke works similarly for defense.

-Defender rolls die

-Attacker meets requirements for Juke and invokes it. Defender must change an evade to an eye.

-Defender then can spend a focus token to change it back to an evade.

You shouldn't be too hard on yourself Stoneface. There have been a few changes to the way the game works (not necessarily rules errata, but also the introduction of upgrades and new mechanics such as Sensor Jammer and how Palpatine used to work) that have made steps ambiguous, and therefore required to be clarified in further detail. As it's already been said above You (being attacker or defender) roll dice, then the other guy gets to tweak them. Then you tweak them, then you either let him roll or compare results.

There have been many times when I used sensor jammer, that the attack rolls all blanks. The attacker then rerolls the dice and I cannot modify them, because we are past that step. Sensor Jammer is only good on the first roll. It's a weakness of the card. On a TLT however, sensor jammer can be used on both shots, that's why I love it. Same with gunner, because both of them are separate attacks.