One of the control upgrades on the Influence force power allows you to add force dice to a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check.
The power description says you can spend pips to either add a Success or an Advantage result.
What is the range of this effect?
Do I also have to spend pips to increase the range or number of targets effected?
the upgrade affects your check, (it's described as improving your charisma and your ability to hold a cohesive argument), as such the magnitude and range upgrades have no effect on this part of the power. So the range is the range of the corresponding check.
I don't know that I'd let it apply over a comlink or other long-distance communication, but as long as the characters are present in person I wouldn't worry about range. If they're close enough to hear you, they're within range.
Thanks for the answers!
So I guess we should think of the additional force dice as enhancing your ability rather than directly effecting the mind of the target.
What does this mean for the number of targets affected?
For example, if I make a Leadership check to inspire battalion of soldiers, or a Charm check to impress a kings court?
Can I potentially influence hundreds of people, while the basic power only effects one target?
That is correct, it enhances your skill essentially making you more charismatic or more influential, in fact (although I am definitely in the minority here) I believe that because you are not using the the force to affect another, that the special rule doesnt apply to this use (you are not affecting the emotions of another, your skill at influencing does), as I said though im in qthe minority here.
2 hours ago, syrath said:That is correct, it enhances your skill essentially making you more charismatic or more influential, in fact (although I am definitely in the minority here) I believe that because you are not using the the force to affect another, that the special rule doesnt apply to this use (you are not affecting the emotions of another, your skill at influencing does), as I said though im in qthe minority here.
Just looking at the rules again, and they suggest you are correct. On page 295 of FaD. the Influence control upgrade is described as follows:
Control Upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.
I would say that "enhance his arguments and charisma" means the social Skills of the force user are actually improved. In other words, it is not a "mind trick" which effects the observer.
In addition, the wording for the upgrade is identical to the wording used to describe the Enhance basic power:
Page 288 FaD:
When making an Athletics check, the Force user may roll an Enhance power check as part of the pool. The user may spend [pip] to gain [suc] or [adv] (user's choice) on the check.
Page 294 FaD:
When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership or Negotiation check, the Force user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool. He may spend [pip] to gain [suc] or [adv] (user's choice) on the check.
In the case of the "Enhance power check", we know that the power is directly affecting the user (not the observer, or the ship he is piloting, for example). Because of the identical wording we can assume that the "Influence power check" similarly affects the force user.
And, in this case, it means that Coercion, Charm, ... etc. force enhanced checks will also effect Droids and other creatures immune to force powers, and also actually work over comlinks and other long distance communications, in as far as the basic Skill does this.
Edited by JabberwockiThink of it as a character in D&D/Pathfinder casting Eagle's Splendour on themselves; it enhances their own Charisma stat, thereby making them better at skills like Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. It has nothing to do with the people you use those skills on, it's a buff for the person doing the talking.
21 minutes ago, Krieger22 said:Think of it as a character in D&D/Pathfinder casting Eagle's Splendour on themselves; it enhances their own Charisma stat, thereby making them better at skills like Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. It has nothing to do with the people you use those skills on, it's a buff for the person doing the talking.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me.
1 hour ago, Jabberwocki said:Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me.
This being the case you can argue that it is usable over a comlink.
4 hours ago, syrath said:This being the case you can argue that it is usable over a comlink.
Sure, you can absolutely make that argument. Personally I wouldn't let it, my reasoning being that personal charisma is a thing that's mostly noticeable when you're in the actual presence of the person in question, but if anyone wants to run it differently at their table then they are of course free to do so.
6 minutes ago, Krieger22 said:Sure, you can absolutely make that argument. Personally I wouldn't let it, my reasoning being that personal charisma is a thing that's mostly noticeable when you're in the actual presence of the person in question, but if anyone wants to run it differently at their table then they are of course free to do so.
As a player Im cool with either interpretation myself, as a GM I would let it , my justification is simple , If I didnt allow it over a comlink then this would have to be down to the fact that the target lf the social checm couldnt see them. I would feel that I would also then have to limit a persons Presence statistic in a similar manner since Presence also takes into account how someone looks as it affects how others react to you even before you opened your mouth. Take charm , if someone who you find attractive asks you for something you have a higher chance to do it for them, however it they were rude to you you would be less likely, so we have the flip sides of the coin here but how do you differentiate both here. Simple Presence is how they appear to you and Charm skill is how they put across the question.
In the game though there is a way of limiting someone who is trying to do exactly that, add setback. It is easier to talk someone into something based on your physical presence, your body language , however it affects those not using the force equally to those using the force to "jack up their charisma". Though it is easier to go the KISS route and just leave the check as is , comlink or not (or to apply setback equally when using a comlink)
As I'v mentioned in another current thread, I disagree with this interpretation of the upgrade in question. As stated in the opening sentence, by its very nature, Influence , is a mind affecting power, this includes the Social Checks upgrade. It works by making the target more suggestible to your arguments/skills. The game mechanics of the upgrade are the way they are s a consequence of how skill checks are done in this system . Therefore, it has to be applied to your skill check instead of the defender's, check, since the defender doesn't roll a check. Therefore, the range of the Social Check upgrade should be the same as that for any other aspect of the power.
7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:Therefore, the range of the Social Check upgrade should be the same as that for any other aspect of the power.
OK, so if the Range is also restricted, what about the number of targets and the duration?
And, do I have to expend pips to increase these parameters, just as I would do for the other aspects of the power?
Is there anyone out there that actually plays it like this...?
I have read the other thread, and no-one has actually confirmed that they actually spend force points on this stuff.
Influencing more targets at greater range is far easier to handle by modifying the difficulty of the skill check. Opposed checks are going to generally be very challenging, especially when the target is an important NPC. Setback for doing the check amongst a noisy crowd or over longer distances, in poor weather or during combat as well. Upgrades if your attempting to influence a larger group, or negotiate between multiple hostile groups.
The idea that range/magnitude need apply drastically limits this upgrade, it's already limited enough. Remember that due to recent answers from the developers this Force Power can only be used as a standard/basic skill check. It can't be combined with a Talent that requires a social check (Scathing Tirade, Field Commander, Inspiring Rhetoric etc). This is due to the Force Power requiring a Action to activate and the Talent requiring an Action as well, you can't use 2 Actions at the same time.
23 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:Influencing more targets at greater range is far easier to handle by modifying the difficulty of the skill check. Opposed checks are going to generally be very challenging, especially when the target is an important NPC. Setback for doing the check amongst a noisy crowd or over longer distances, in poor weather or during combat as well. Upgrades if your attempting to influence a larger group, or negotiate between multiple hostile groups.
This makes sense to me, but what you are saying is: do not apply the Range/Magnitude/Duration restrictions that apply to the other parts of the power. Instead, handle it more like a normal Skill check.
I agree that this upgrade would otherwise be not very effective.
23 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:The idea that range/magnitude need apply drastically limits this upgrade, it's already limited enough. Remember that due to recent answers from the developers this Force Power can only be used as a standard/basic skill check. It can't be combined with a Talent that requires a social check (Scathing Tirade, Field Commander, Inspiring Rhetoric etc). This is due to the Force Power requiring a Action to activate and the Talent requiring an Action as well, you can't use 2 Actions at the same time.
I accept the dev ruling, which I am sure they apply for "balance" reasons, but the explanation about 2 actions does not make sense, because using the Influence Social Upgrade already requires doing 2 actions at once .
If you read the rules, page 294 of F&D:
QuoteWhen making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check , the Force user may roll an Influence Power check as part of his dice pool.
So you are doing 2 checks at once: the Skill Check is an action , and the Influence Power check is an action because every use of a force power is an action (unless otherwise stated).
So if the devs can make an exception in this case, they could also make an exception when using a Talent, and you roll a Skill check with a Force check while using a talent. In which case you would actually be doing 3 actions at once .
However! they have ruled against this, and they really do not have to give a reason, or make it sound logical: it is just the rule, so OK!
But, if they do give a reason for a rule, then they really need to get it right, or it just causes more confusion, for example the rule may be:
So if you are using a Talent, which is an action, and you are allowed or required to roll a Skill check, which is also an action (so you have 2 actions), then you are not allowed to also add a force power check, which would result in 3 actions being performed at once.
So the way this Upgrade reads is that it provides an entirely new way to use (Activate) this Force Power, it's not a modification of a pre existing way to use the power. You don't have to activate the base ability to use this upgrade.
I think the Force Power with a Skill Check is counted as a single Action due to it being outlined in The Force chapter. There is a section that outlines "Combined Force Power Checks" as being 1 way of activating a Force Power.
In the Combat chapter there is a list of Actions, one is "use a Force Power" (which includes using a Force Power as a combined check) another is "Activate a Talent".
40 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:So the way this Upgrade reads is that it provides an entirely new way to use (Activate) this Force Power, it's not a modification of a pre existing way to use the power. You don't have to activate the base ability to use this upgrade.
Yup, absolutely agree!
40 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:I think the Force Power with a Skill Check is counted as a single Action due to it being outlined in The Force chapter. There is a section that outlines "Combined Force Power Checks" as being 1 way of activating a Force Power.
In the Combat chapter there is a list of Actions, one is "use a Force Power" (which includes using a Force Power as a combined check) another is "Activate a Talent".
OK, got it: the reason why you cannot include the Force Dice when asked to make a Skill check during Talent activation is because you would then be using a Force Power (not making a Skill check), which is not allowed.
I can understand this, but counting Actions by way of explanation does not work , because a Skill Check is ALSO an action , and this is allowed during the Talent activation. So saying that the Skill Check does not count as an Action in the case, but the Force Power (with a Skill Check) does count as an Action just does not make sense. Because elsewhere, both are considered to be one Action .
Anyway, I am just being nit picky...
I understand the basic rule