Well, I wasn't going to post this because we just had a good few days of actual discussions and not just nerf threads . . . but now the nerf threads are back, so here's my contribution.

The question: assuming FFG wants to nerf the Jumpmaster, what's the best way to do it?

The answer: remove the turret. Throw in an erratum that just says "The JM5K can only target ships inside its firing arc." Here's the reasoning:

• One of the major complaints about the JumpMaster is its dial. The thing is a monster. Without a turret, though, the insane maneuverability makes a bit more sense -- a big ship has to work hard to keep things in arc. It can still be a great blocker, but it'll be harder to block while also getting a shot. Oh, and the white sloop becomes a much more risky move -- yeah, it's white, but what if you end up facing the wrong way? Suddenly you're missing out on shots.
• Manaroo gets reigned in as a support ship. She can't kite around as effectively, and her options are pretty limited now that she has to be at Range 1. A lot of rounds, this basically means a trade-off between getting a shot and being able to pass tokens.
• Dengar is still nasty, but now there's a win condition against him. As it is, playing Dengar is really tricky for a lot of ships because the best you can hope for is to trade shots (he shoots you from out of arc, you shoot him, no revenge shot). Without a turret, though, it becomes imperative that the Dengar player actually gets you in arc more often than not; if he doesn't, he'll fall behind in the damage race.
• Tel stays pretty much the same, which I think is fair. In the case of the Worlds list, it makes Tel and Dengar much more comparable to Dengar and Bossk; Tel loses out on some late-game strength, but is still far more maneuverable than his counterpart.
• The combination of upgrades, while still a bit hard to swallow, is somewhat mitigated. Torp Scouts are still borderline busted, but at least they only get two good shots apiece. After that, they can block, but they'll be blocking each other as much as blocking you. The Elite slot is a bit much, but the second torpedo slot is now reasonable.
• Perhaps most importantly, it seems like a fix that's actually in keeping with FFG's credo. They don't want to change point costs or ban cards because doing so makes it easy for a new player to show up to a tournament or even a store's game night with an illegal list. There's a big difference between "aw, man, this card doesn't work like I thought it did?!" and "soooo . . . what you're saying is that I can't fly this list? Period?" I can't think of any list you could come up with that works only because the JumpMaster is a turret. Any list will obviously work better that way, but at least you can still fly your ships.

Basically, it seems to me like this is the simplest way to fix the Jump. It would remain a powerful ship, and it might still be a bit busted in conjunction with Mindlink -- but that's as much a Mindlink problem as anything else. Thoughts?

I mean if we're ripping things off of it just remove the torpedo slots. The ship is fine without an alpha strike and well costed for dial slots and stats without being overboard. I'd rather face the 2 die turret primary than the 4 die alpha spikes any day.

Take away scum's only primary turret. sounds great.

How about moving the turret to the title? Then Dengar+Tell would be more comparable to Dengar+Bossk.

The biggest problems I see are 1) fluff, the JM5K has a turret. Then again, by the fluff, the Astro should be title exclusive so why not swap 'em? 2) The cardboard base tile. The only cardboard errata I'm aware of was the mis-printed firespray a while back.

You assume people fly Tel only as a ps9 torp boat. Nope. Ive been flying Tel for over a year taking full advantage of his ability as a tank.

If anything, remove the ept from the scouts (not Manaroo, as fluff wise her species uses Mindlink) and move the astromech to the title, where it should be. Jumpmasters had turrets. And if you must remove the turret, put it in the title at least.

If you move the turret to the title it them makes the Jumpmaster on par with other turret ships for both PWT fire power and cost. The non turret jumpmaster are still excellent torp boats.

YT-1300 RS - 38pt

Decimator PL - 40pt

Jumpmaster CS/title - 37pt

Removing the PWT, it is still a disgustingly undercosted ship

VS

Assuming it doesnt have PWT. For 2pts it has one more PS, a barrel-roll, an EPT, two Torp slots, an extra Hull, .5 extra green, AND THAT DIAL.

Uwing has 1 more red die that is restricted because of its dial. I would gladly have the jumpmaster dial for the cost of a red dice. There is your fix for both ships, swap the dials!

1 hour ago, wurms said:

Removing the PWT, it is still a disgustingly undercosted ship

VS

Assuming it doesnt have PWT. For 2pts it has one more PS, a barrel-roll, an EPT, two Torp slots, an extra Hull, .5 extra green, AND THAT DIAL.

Uwing has 1 more red die that is restricted because of its dial. I would gladly have the jumpmaster dial for the cost of a red dice. There is your fix for both ships, swap the dials!

Yeah, let's ignore the extra crew slot and the system slot. There are no good upgrades of those types, right?

Let's also ignore the cost of using all those extra slots on the JM5k.

A standard upgrades JM is around 33 points. A standard loadout on an U-Wing (Rey, Hera, FCS) is 28. That's 6 points less and an U-wing dial supported by hera isn't that much worse than an u-bot dial (and the difference between a 2atk and 3atk is pretty huge).

Of course, those calcs are valid for a no-PWT jumpmaster, but that's what we're discussing.

20 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Yeah, let's ignore the extra crew slot and the system slot. There are no good upgrades of those types, right?

Let's also ignore the cost of using all those extra slots on the JM5k.

A standard upgrades JM is around 33 points. A standard loadout on an U-Wing (Rey, Hera, FCS) is 28. That's 6 points less and an U-wing dial supported by hera isn't that much worse than an u-bot dial (and the difference between a 2atk and 3atk is pretty huge).

Of course, those calcs are valid for a no-PWT jumpmaster, but that's what we're discussing.

The system slot is almost as useless on a Uwing as it is on a lambda because of the dial. Cassian can make use of it quite well, generics not so much. If you have flown a Uwing, or Upsilon, trying to keep the same target in arc is a **** chore. Yes, its a great upgrade on most ships, but I was considering System and two crews even vs crew,agromech,and illicit. Both ships combo well with those upgrades. The other stuff separates the ships by a whopping two points. And there is no standard loadout on a Uwing. I like EU on them if I am bringing them has fighters, so your "standard loadout" is now 32pts. Calling boost and b-roll even, Still lacking PS, EPT, agility, hull, torp slot and the dial.

3 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

Take away scum's only primary turret. sounds great.

Yes, but then we could get a scum yt 1300 for scums turret.

4 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

Take away scum's only primary turret. sounds great.

Well people are calling for a ban of the Jumpmaster so yeah, that is not an unpopular opinion even though it would be the wrong action.

44 minutes ago, gryffindorhouse said:

Yes, but then we could get a scum yt 1300 for scums turret.

if i can get one for free in exchange for my jumpmaster.

6 hours ago, wurms said:

Removing the PWT, it is still a disgustingly undercosted ship

VS

Assuming it doesnt have PWT. For 2pts it has one more PS, a barrel-roll, an EPT, two Torp slots, an extra Hull, .5 extra green, AND THAT DIAL.

Uwing has 1 more red die that is restricted because of its dial. I would gladly have the jumpmaster dial for the cost of a red dice. There is your fix for both ships, swap the dials!

That's all assuming that the U-Wing is correctly costed, which seems...problematic. It's still very competitive at 25 points, but a little less broken goes a long way.

6 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

You assume people fly Tel only as a ps9 torp boat. Nope. Ive been flying Tel for over a year taking full advantage of his ability as a tank.

If anything, remove the ept from the scouts (not Manaroo, as fluff wise her species uses Mindlink) and move the astromech to the title, where it should be. Jumpmasters had turrets. And if you must remove the turret, put it in the title at least.

Oh absolutely, Tel is more than just a torp boat; but I think of all the JumpMaster pilots, he's the least problematic. I just didn't want to say that and then have a bunch of people shout "HE WON WORLDS!"

While I like the idea of moving upgrade slots around, I don't see it as being too feasible, or at least as being something FFG would do. It would really suck to get to a tournament and find out the list that you've been playing with your buddies is actually completely unflyable, and that you're playing with a handicap of up to four points per JumpMaster.

I could, however, see the title granting access to a turret as well. Not sure I'm sold on that because it does absolutely nothing to Dengar--when have you ever seen him without the title?

There aren't too many people who think highly of the U Wing. There are still plenty of ships that have a similar cost that are though highly of. I feel it is a poor comparison to say the Jumpmaster needs to suck as bad as the U-Wing.

A falcon with the new title and Kannan is actually a better dial than the Jumpmaster. It is still over priced compared to the Jumpmaster by 5-7 pts, but it does give a small amount of parity.

Increase the point cost of every single JM5K pilot by 5, then undo all nerfs sans Manarooo's.

The first ime I looked at the thing I thought "wow, that's a YT-2400 with a better dial, upgrade bar and pilot abilities for literally 5 points less on all counts, that's a little OP". 30 point contracted scouts means no stupid triple torp alpha strike. It means Dengar runs with 5 less points of backup, and Paratanni doesn't exist. If you accept that Dash is on the power curve, you recognise that nothing you can do to the JM5K will bring it into line except a straight up points increase.

Yes, FFG should finally accept that they botched the job with JM. It´' s ridicolous. Nothing short of a point increase will bring them in line with the rest of the game!

Maybe Attanni self is a problem too - but please FFG don´'t putter around at other cards just because you messed up with the Jumpmaster!