We have some very interesting discusion on our forums (CZ) about this card, so far there has been one or two players who think that if player A who plays this event has a char with INT icon but player B has not, the second part of the effect cannot be resolved since the conditions (cost) has not been met, but most of us say NO since there is the "if able" word.

Also it brought up the thoughts that is the first part of the effect a cost or not. In some ways it seems that yes but on the other hand no, it makes a big difference since if it is not a cost, characters with immunity cannot be knelt this way.

Can you pls light up these two things especialy the second one. Thx.

Challenges: Each player must choose and kneel a character with an icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand.

In my opinion it's not a cost, because you must do this (you are forcing opponents to do this) - thus it's an effect.

If opponent doesn't kneel his character, then you still may use "then" part (because of "if able"). I may be wrong, though.

Rogue30 is correct. As long as one player kneels a character with an Int icon with a strength greater than 0 (and no one else kneels a character with an Int icon with the same strength), the "then" part is performed.

Also, you can not "choose" to kneel characters immune to cards or events for A Game of Cyvasse.

Check out the comments on tzumainn.com if you want more elaboration ; )

Specifically:

All costs are formatted as "do X to do Y" (where X is the cost). The event does not say "each player chooses and kneels a character with an intrigue icon to do..." anything. So kneeling the characters is not a cost. It is an effect. This event has no cost (other than playing the card from your hand).

So this becomes a simple "do X, then do Y" dual effect. As long as someone kneels a character, the kneeling portion of the effect is successful (because, as you say, the "if able" part allows for a successful resolution of the kneeling even if not all players kneel a character) an the return to hand part resolves.

And actually, schrecklich, if the only character knelt is a 0-STR character, that one wins the "game." He is the character knelt with the highest STR. The knelt character does not necessarily have to have a STR greater than 0.

ktom said:

Ah, okay, a comment on tzumainn implied the contrary. I posted a new comment clarifying the point.

Sorry to bother again kTom, but my fellow playmates still does not believe me when I say you can kneel a kneeling character or stand a standing character. I know you cant do it successfuly so any efect following a "then" or "to do" would not be resolved either but they still dont believe me. I was also showing them the example from you site about Eddard (ITE) with only a little to prove. Is there some article in rulebook or FAQ that explains a or defines terms like kneeling a knelt character or standing a standing character?

Rozy said:

There isn't an article or entry anywhere. It's reading comprehension.

If something says "choose and kneel a character," there is no restriction on which character you choose to kneel. I mean, do you have to choose a character with a particular trait? Icon? STR? Crest? Controlled by a particular player? No, you can choose and kneel any character. So how about standing or kneeling? Aren't they examples of in-game card status? Wouldn't assuming you had to choose a standing character be pretty much the same as assuming you had to choose a character with a military icon? Or assuming you had to choose a character controlled by your opponent?

But if they have trouble believing that "choose and kneel a character" doesn't restrict your choice to standing characters, show them the plot card Drunken Allegations ("When revealed, choose an opponent. Then, you and that opponent must each choose and kneel a standing character") or the character card Old Red Priest ("After Old Red Priest is killed, choose and kneel a standing location you control, if able"). Why do those cards specifically say the chosen character/location must be standing if every "choose and kneel" effect required you to choose a standing target every time?

Ultimately, just because it's usually not a good idea to choose and kneel a character that is already kneeling doesn't mean it isn't allowed.

ktom said:

And that's why Alannys Greyjoy will appear in the next FAQ, hehe.

OK, one last question. If I kneel a knelt character by some efect am I considered for any purposes to have triggerd effect or play an event card (if that was an event) etc.? This seems a fairly exploitable. Imagine if there is efect that say "after you triger an effect pay one gold to draw a card" I could kneel my knelt Fiefdom do do this three times. Or what about the plot The Things I Do for Love, imagine that in Multiplayer I want to stop someone and I make a deal with a player that has this plot revealed so I kneel my Fiefdom a hundred bilion times and he hes a hell of a claim...

Like you say, you can do all that with reducers, too. Luckily there aren't a lot of things that respond to any generic effect.

Yes, if you use an effect in an attempt to kneel a character that is already knelt, it is initiated successfully (costs paid, etc), but it is not resolved successfully. You could Respond to "playing an event," but not to "kneeling a character."

Now I'm a little bit confused. Isn't kneeling the fiefdoms part of the cost? Doesn't it have to be standing for the cost of kneeling it to be paid? Can you really trigger its effect when it's already knelt?

schrecklich said:

Sorry. I missed that implication in the question. I was thinking he meant "I can kneel a Fiefdom to activate its reduction effect even if I don't intend to play a card" as another example of where an effect can be triggered without a practical effect just to have something to Respond to. This works if the Fiefdom is standing but it does not work if the Fiefdom is kneeling because kneeling the Fiefdom is part of its effect cost.

Rozy: You need to differentiate between kneeling as an effect and kneeling as a cost. What we have been discussing is that it is legal to choose a character that is already kneeling as the target for a kneeling effect, assuming that the target restrictions do not specifically prevent it. So if something says "choose and kneel a character," it is legal to choose a character that is already kneeling - and if something says "choose and kneel a standing character," it is not.

However, if something says "kneel a card to make something else happen" (like the Fiefdoms kneel to lower the cost of the next card), kneeling the card is considered a cost. If you cannot successfully pay a cost, you cannot initiate the action. So if you are trying to kneel a Fiefdom that is already kneeling in order to say you have initiated an effect, keep in mind that you have not paid the cost, so you have not initiated the action. More to the point, if you cannot pay the cost, the rules of the game prevent you from even attempting to initiate the action. You cannot trigger an effect if you cannot pay the cost.

Maybe part of the confusion is Game of Cyvasse here. Many people seem to think that everyone choosing and kneeling one of their characters is a cost of returning a character to hand. It is not. This card has two separate effects: 1) kneeling one character with an intrigue icon controlled by each player, and 2) potentially returning a character to hand.

So, you can pay 2 gold to play The Lion's Will and choose to kneel a character that is already kneeling. You have successfully played an event card, but you have not successfully knelt a character. But if all your Lannister characters are already kneeling, you cannot say "I kneel this guy who is already kneeling in order to play ALPHD; the kill effect doesn't happen, but I did play the event card so now this 'after an event is played' Response." If you cannot pay the entire cost (including having an appropriate card actually change from standing to kneeling status), you are not allowed to even try to trigger it.

I was digging through the FAQ all morning so reading all your answers makes a lot more sence right now.

Thx all.

So, if I pay 2 influence for "A Gentle Prison" while there is no challenge at the moment (i.e. I did not stand character and I did not remove him from challenge), that character still cannot be killed this phase, correct?

EDIT: I suppose no, since it must be participating character

Rogue30 said:

Correct. There is a target restriction that says the character must be participating in a challenge.

However, you could choose a character that is participating but not kneeling (because of some other "does not kneel to attack/defend" effect).

eloooooooi said:

I have a question regarding why Alannys Greyjoy would need a FAQ change? As previously mentioned, you can kneel a kneeling character - but that doesn't mean you have succesfully completed the action.

Alannys' text says: "If that opponent does not kneel a character with higher strength...". Doesn't the action have to be completed succesfully in order to avoid the discard?

Zsa said:

I'm not entirely sure why Alannys is relevant to the "kneel a character that is already kneeling" discussion, either. But I can see an FAQ clarification entry on her answering the question of whether the chosen opponent must kneel a character with higher STR, only discarding from hand when there isn't a stronger character available, or if they can choose to "protect" their characters by discarding.

The problem with Alannys Greyjoy is that, if I use her ability, my opponent will be able to kneel one of MY characters. The text doesn't specify that it has to be one of his/her characters.

ktom said:

You cannot a card as a target for an effect to which it is immune.

You cannot a Noble character to be killed when the Power of Blood's "Noble characters cannot be killed" effect is active.

You cannot a card as the target of an effect that would kill/discard/return to hand if that card has already been killed/discarded/returned to hand

So why can you a card to be knelt when it is already kneeling?

BoogieMan said:

wth? Every occurrence of the word "s.e.l.e.c.t" has been removed from th text of my posting! This is what I meant:

You cannot choose a card as a target for an effect to which it is immune.

You cannot choose a Noble character to be killed when the Power of Blood's "Noble characters cannot be killed" effect is active.

You cannot choose a card as the target of an effect that would kill/discard/return to hand if that card has already been killed/discarded/returned to hand

So why can you choose a card to be knelt when it is already kneeling?

You cannot choose a card as a target for an effect to which it is immune because the rules/FAQ specifically forbid it:

"(3.15) Targetting and Immunity
A card cannot be chosen as a target of effects to which it is immune."

You cannot choose a Noble character to be killed when the Power of Blood's "Noble characters cannot be killed" effect is active because the rules/FAQ specifically forbid it:

"(4.3) The word 'cannot'

A character that cannot be killed/saved/etc. may not be chosen for that effect."

You cannot choose a card as the target of an effect that would kill/discard/return to hand if that card has already been killed/discarded/returned to hand because the rules/FAQ specifically forbid it:

"Rules Exception

Although considered in play, a Moribund card cannot be removed from play (or targeted to be removed from play) again by any effect or any attempt to pay a cost for the remainder of the action window. However, the "state" of a Moribund card can be changed by an effect that does not actually attempt to remove it from play a second time."

But nowhere in the rules/FAQ are you specifically forbidden from choosing a kneeling character as the target of a kneeling effect.

ktom said:

Hmm ... then it's high time I was.

The way I see it, "a kneeling character cannot be knelt" should be considered an implicit permanent passive effect, at the very least for consistency's sake.

Thanks for clarifying, ktom.

So, if I understood correctly, these cards benefit from this:

Fury of the Lion

The Bastard of Godsgrace (not much)

Hornvale (not much)

Claw Isle (not much)

Besieged Shipyard (not much)

A Game of Cyvasse (opponent sometimes benefits)

Longship Iron Victory

If that's true, then Longship Iron Victory needs errata I think.

Rogue30 said:

Benefit? Really? Let's think about this:

Rogue30 said:

Considering that the two effects (kneel/discard) are separate, the technicality doesn't really matter. The card is no different than "choose a character; kneel that character and discard all attachments and power from it." Because there is no use of the word "then," the discarding will happen whether the kneel happens or not regardless.

Rogue30 said:

How do you figure? The text on him is "Any Phase: Kneel The Bastard of Godsgrace to give a HM character +2 STR until the end of the phase. If you trigger this effect during the epic phase, draw a card." I fail to see any "you can kneel a character that is already kneeling" benefit here. Remember that kneeling a character that is already knelt is considered to be unsuccessful. So if you try to kneel the Bastard after he is knelt, you will be unsuccessful, meaning you never paid his cost, meaning you never triggered the effect. If you never trigger the effect, you don't get the extra card in the Epic phase.

miss dee said:

Yes, this one is real, but gee - you can always draw a card in the Epic phase. Seems like a lot of work for Lannister.

miss dee said:

See Bastard of Godsgrace. The "you can kneel something that is already kneeling" thing doesn't help when the kneeling is in the cost. An unsuccessfully knelt card for a cost means the effect was never triggered.

miss dee said:

Cost again.

miss dee said:

Well, you can choose to (unsuccessfully) kneel a character that is already knelt, but if you do, your opponent just needs to kneel anything to "win" the game and return something to hand. Pyrrhic victory at best.

miss dee said:

Again, kneeling is the cost. You never triggered the effect.

So yeah, benefits from this are pretty minimal, almost any way you look at it.

ktom said:

~Are you insulting me or something? Who's the miss dee?

ktom said:

Yeah, but if you can't win or don't want to kneel standing character, then you avoid "losing" 2 characters for next challenge.

ktom said:

Oh my, I forgot about this.