Hello everyone!

After a hiatus I'm returning to my group and made a new character.

Now I have a couple of questions that I was unable to procure the answer to.

I picked a Consular Healer with Force Power Heal/Harm.

One of the control upgrades allows you a combined Force / Medicine check of difficulty 3 and let's you heal a critical injury in addition to the wounds healed by the default check.

Now, is it possible to reroll that check with Natural Doctor and if so, do you reroll the entire check or just the Skill/Difficulty part and leave the force die be?

Also, is it possible to heal more than one critical injury per person per week with this upgrade and/or maybe even heal the critical injuries of multiple targets with the same check in accordance with the magnitude upgrade (Provided a sufficient number of generated force points of course.)?

Last thing: Are other talents that would apply to medicine checks applicable to the control upgrade (Or maybe even apply benefits from a physicians kit or the like, though I can see this as a hard sell thematically, especially if you're healing on distance.)?

Not looking to munchkin the crap out this character, but I just wanna do it correctly/know its capabilities.

Thanks!

Since you're making a Medicine check as part of the power check, then I would say that Natural Doctor applies, and that you'd re-roll every die in the check, including the Force dice.

As for healing multiple critical injuries, that's a little trickier. With the Magnitude upgrades, i would say that you could use Heal to remove a single critical injury from multiple patients, but that you'd still be limited to a single critical injury per successful power check. But I would say that you could not use Heal to remove multiple critical injuries in a single activation.

Of the Healer spec's talents, unfortunately I don't think any of them would really apply, since they all revolve around making a Medicine check to recover wounds. The Control upgrade in question has you making a Medicine check to allow the target to recover from a critical injury, which is separate from recovering wounds. Knowledgeable Healing's short description in the spec tree makes it look like it would, but the full description in the Talents chapter spells out that it only applies to Medicine checks to recover wounds.

Yeah, pretty straight forward.

23 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With the Magnitude upgrades, i would say that you could use Heal to remove a single critical injury from multiple patients, but that you'd still be limited to a single critical injury per successful power check. But I would say that you could not use Heal to remove multiple critical injuries in a single activation.

One healed crit per person per activation is pretty much what I had in my mind. Multiple per check would be pretty crazy.

If I remember correctly healing of a critical injury can only be attempted once per narrative week though, would you say that Heal/Harm could circumvent that? Would also seem pretty strong.

25 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Of the Healer spec's talents, unfortunately I don't think any of them would really apply, since they all revolve around making a Medicine check to recover wounds. The Control upgrade in question has you making a Medicine check to allow the target to recover from a critical injury, which is separate from recovering wounds. Knowledgeable Healing's short description in the spec tree makes it look like it would, but the full description in the Talents chapter spells out that it only applies to Medicine checks to recover wounds.

I figured as much. Well, the default wounds healed by Heal/Harm is already pretty good so I guess it's fine. My character will pretty much be a traditional healer as well, so it's not too bad.

Thank you very much for your input!

2 hours ago, RicoD said:

Yeah, pretty straight forward.

One healed crit per person per activation is pretty much what I had in my mind. Multiple per check would be pretty crazy.

If I remember correctly healing of a critical injury can only be attempted once per narrative week though, would you say that Heal/Harm could circumvent that? Would also seem pretty strong.

Essentially the only restriction is that "When you heal wounds" so since you can only (attempt to?) use medicine to heal wounds once per encounter , then that is the only restriction, so if you heal wounds and roll enough force pips to tigger you heal a crit. If you do the same the next encounter you can also heal a crit. As a GM I personally would think about allowing this but at first glance its a fair investment in XP , so I'd err on the side of the player in this instance, other GMs may not. I questioned the attempt to heal because im unsure if its one attmept to heal wounds or if you are allowed to heal wounds once per encounter.

As for using Heal + Control Upgrade to heal critical injuries in less than a narrative week, I think that's probably going to be more up to the GM.

Personally, I would allow it, since buying that ability isn't cheap (said Control Upgrade is near the bottom of the power tree), and you've still got to succeed on a fairly difficult Medicine check. But it would come with the caveat that the target has suffered wounds and needs to be healed. So if the target has a critical injury but has zero wounds, then I would not allow Heal to be used just to remove the critical injury.

Fair assessments I'd say.

I shall await verdict from my GM when we actually get into the session tomorrow.

Thanks very much folks!

On 5/26/2017 at 1:03 PM, syrath said:

Essentially the only restriction is that "When you heal wounds" so since you can only (attempt to?) use medicine to heal wounds once per encounter , then that is the only restriction, so if you heal wounds and roll enough force pips to tigger you heal a crit. If you do the same the next encounter you can also heal a crit. As a GM I personally would think about allowing this but at first glance its a fair investment in XP , so I'd err on the side of the player in this instance, other GMs may not. I questioned the attempt to heal because im unsure if its one attmept to heal wounds or if you are allowed to heal wounds once per encounter.

I don't see anything in the rules that limits the use of Medicine skill to once per encounter. Where is that? The only thing I see is pg. 112 EtoE that says one attempt per week for healing Critical Injuries.

You can do a medicine check once per encounter.

under recover and healing in the respective books F&D core page 226

Each character may only receive one medicine check each encounter, as there is only so much good first aid can do to help a character.

On 5/26/2017 at 3:57 AM, RicoD said:

I picked a Consular Healer with Force Power Heal/Harm.

One of the control upgrades allows you a combined Force / Medicine check of difficulty 3 and let's you heal a critical injury in addition to the wounds healed by the default check.

is it possible to heal more than one critical injury per person per week with this upgrade and/or maybe even heal the critical injuries of multiple targets with the same check in accordance with the magnitude upgrade (Provided a sufficient number of generated force points of course.)?

RAW the check will Heal one Critical Injury. Also RAW Triumphs can be used to break the rules if the GM is O.K. with it. Combine these two and you might get something like "You can spend Triumphs on this check to Heal an additional Critical Injury (of equal or lesser severity) per Triumph." That is how my GM played it for all checks to heal Critical Injuries, and it seemed to work pretty well. In game terms it would be something like "Your brain surgery went well, so as long as I had you on the table I sewed up that cut hamstring too." if it is a regular Medicine check or "The Force was with me." on a Heal check.

The talent doesn't say anything about circumventing the one week lockout on a failed attempt to treat a critical injury.

I think the main thing that talent lets you do is treat a critical injury at range, which can be extremely useful under some circumstances, like if someone has the crit where they will die if the crit isn't treated within 1 round.

On 5/26/2017 at 9:08 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

Since you're making a Medicine check as part of the power check, then I would say that Natural Doctor applies, and that you'd re-roll every die in the check, including the Force dice.

As for healing multiple critical injuries, that's a little trickier. With the Magnitude upgrades, i would say that you could use Heal to remove a single critical injury from multiple patients, but that you'd still be limited to a single critical injury per successful power check. But I would say that you could not use Heal to remove multiple critical injuries in a single activation.

Of the Healer spec's talents, unfortunately I don't think any of them would really apply, since they all revolve around making a Medicine check to recover wounds. The Control upgrade in question has you making a Medicine check to allow the target to recover from a critical injury, which is separate from recovering wounds. Knowledgeable Healing's short description in the spec tree makes it look like it would, but the full description in the Talents chapter spells out that it only applies to Medicine checks to recover wounds.

Question:

Since one of the major benefits of Force powers, over other abilities a PC might have, is the "you can use it as many times as you want to roll those Force die", would that get around the limitation for the medicine checks for Critical Injuries and the like?

I mean, the devs have said multiple times "the neat thing about Force powers, is if you fail, you can try again next turn". Implying they can circumvent the usual limitations on other abilities/talents. What would you say on this fact regarding the upgrade that lets you make a medicine check to try and fix those problems? Could the PC just spam Force Heal over and over until they do finally get that success to heal that Crit? Or would you still limit the check itself to once per week, regardless of the wording of the power?

Part of me feels that is broken, but another part of me feels it's a way to show the power of the Force over traditional medicine. In that it can accomplish what normal medical methods can't, or at least not as quickly.

With regards to using Heal and the waiting period between Critical Injuries, I'm thinking that'd probably up to the individual GM.

Personally, I would allow Heal + Control Upgrade in question to bypass that one week wait time between attempts to heal a critical injury, but I'd still require that the patient must have suffered Wounds and that the base effect of Heal (restoring lost wounds) is applicable. So if the patient is at zero wounds and has a critical injury, my stance would be that the Force user couldn't just spam Heal + Control Upgrade until they succeed since the basic power isn't having any effect on the target.

4 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With regards to using Heal and the waiting period between Critical Injuries, I'm thinking that'd probably up to the individual GM.

Personally, I would allow Heal + Control Upgrade in question to bypass that one week wait time between attempts to heal a critical injury, but I'd still require that the patient must have suffered Wounds and that the base effect of Heal (restoring lost wounds) is applicable. So if the patient is at zero wounds and has a critical injury, my stance would be that the Force user couldn't just spam Heal + Control Upgrade until they succeed since the basic power isn't having any effect on the target.

So basically they could only continue to try it until all the wounds were healed, and at that point, the loophole for critical injury healing would close? Yeah that sounds fair to me.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

So basically they could only continue to try it until all the wounds were healed, and at that point, the loophole for critical injury healing would close? Yeah that sounds fair to me.

Actually, you can only attempt to heal wounds once per encounter with medicine. So firstly you woukd have to have wounds, you would have to have the medicine check succeed and you would have to trigger the power , and if you fail any of these you have to wait till next time. If you use a stimpack to heal your wounds you cannot make a medicine check to heal them later. So it is far from repeat until done.

Remember that each use of Heal counts towards the daily limit of Stim Pack use. So a PC can only benefit from the Heal power 5 times in a day. Each use doesn't have a reduced effect like stim packs, but that limit is still there.

As for weather the number of targets who Heal a Critical can be increased I would say no. The Control clearly states one target of the power who heals wounds also heals one Crit. This would seem to indicate that no matter how many magnitude upgrades you activate only one Critical is ever healed.

now as suggested by @pnewman15 said a GM could allow you to break that rule with the spending of a triumph.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Remember that each use of Heal counts towards the daily limit of Stim Pack use. So a PC can only benefit from the Heal power 5 times in a day. Each use doesn't have a reduced effect like stim packs, but that limit is still there.

As for weather the number of targets who Heal a Critical can be increased I would say no. The Control clearly states one target of the power who heals wounds also heals one Crit. This would seem to indicate that no matter how many magnitude upgrades you activate only one Critical is ever healed.

I think you're being too literal there.

After all, if we go by that wording, then Magnitude Upgrades for Heal/Harm are totally worthless, since the basic power says "one engaged living creature."

That, and looking at the full text on the Control Upgrade in question, it just says "on a target." The Heal/Harm power by default only works on "one target" unless Magnitude Upgrades (which require 2 FPs to trigger) are invoked.

Frankly, given the XP investment required both to increase Force Rating enough to make activating Magnitude upgrades viable and to purchase the various upgrades, I don't see it as unbalancing that a PC could treat a single critical injury on multiple targets with one activation of Heal.

I'm away from book but if th control upgrade allows you to make a medicine check to heal wounds as a combined check , with the pips being used to heal crits, how can you heal crits on multiple people when you can't do the medicine check on more than one person. Maybe I'm misreading here , but that alone stops you trying to heal multiple people's crits

20 hours ago, syrath said:

I'm away from book but if th control upgrade allows you to make a medicine check to heal wounds as a combined check , with the pips being used to heal crits, how can you heal crits on multiple people when you can't do the medicine check on more than one person. Maybe I'm misreading here , but that alone stops you trying to heal multiple people's crits

The abridged text of the control upgrade states:

"May make a Heal power check combined with a ddd Medicine check. If check succeeds, one target who heals wounds also heals 1 Critical Injury"

It's actually the other way around, I think. You still heal the base amount of wounds according to your heal power, and apply any additional effects according to amout of force points spend.

Succeeding on the check then allows you to automatically heal a critical injury if any wounds have been healed. Keep in mind that the severity of the Injury isn't accounted for.

So you roll 3 purple no matter what, in a "You healed him so well the broken bone happened to fix itself as well." or "Your severed arm happened to stop violently gushing blood." kinda way.

That's how I would interpret it.

Wether or not wounds are still healed at all when the medicine part fails I'm unclear on, but I'd say probably not.

edit:

Think about it like using your knowledge of medicine to guide the force in the healing process, rather than actually applying medical techniques in an analog way.