On 26/5/2017 at 1:30 PM, Chetote said:

While I think those faction-restricting upgrades are cool on Vader and IG-88, I don't think having only one fix per wave is fast enough for me. Right now, more than 60% of the deployment cards are overcosted or don't have a good reason for you to include them on any list. Having this slow fix-rate, I fairly doubt any of the campaing heroes are ever going to get their fix, nor many of the early wave units. So I would be happy with them having even a separate-PDF with all the errataed cards so you could just cut and print them.

Seeing how it never happened in X-wing, I fairly doubt there will ever be one of these.

Ok, but X-wing does not have a Campaign option, so that Campaign-only players would not be interested. Nevertheless, from a skirmish player's point of view it would be an istant must buy imho

40 minutes ago, Quigman said:

But how?

I'm not a designer and don't have much experience with these types of games and I'm legitimitely curious.

Well, look no further than Star Wars itself for inspiration on how things could get messy.

"Is that Legends canon or current continuity" would quickly see its gaming equivalent in "Is that FFG rules or community errata?"

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Is there an organized way in which this could be done?

If so, or even maybe, what would that look like?

If it was possible, could it be given a test drive with a single character so as to not make too much of a mess?

Depends on the scale, I'd imagine.

If you and your friends want to make up house rules, that's easily doable. In fact, these forums have plenty of opportunities for inspiration!

If you have a league at your FLGS, maybe they'd be interested as well.

But as far as official tournaments go... well, I think that's pretty much FFG's prerogative. American football teams don't get to conspire together to form rules against the NFL, and I don't really think players should be able to make rules against FFG in its own tournaments. These forums are spectacular for discussing fixes and such, but as great as they are in that fashion as a grassroots movement, I think that FFG should (and may well) use them for inspiration in their own official curating of the game.

That being said, I do think that squirrelfox's philosophy on change in the game is ideal, if maybe a little bit optimistic. I'd rather see the game move forward and evolve to make itself work, rather than go backward and simply fix cards.

2 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Well, look no further than Star Wars itself for inspiration on how things could get messy.

"Is that Legends canon or current continuity" would quickly see its gaming equivalent in "Is that FFG rules or community errata?"

Depends on the scale, I'd imagine.

If you and your friends want to make up house rules, that's easily doable. In fact, these forums have plenty of opportunities for inspiration!

If you have a league at your FLGS, maybe they'd be interested as well.

But as far as official tournaments go... well, I think that's pretty much FFG's prerogative. A merican football teams don't get to conspire together to form rules against the NFL , and I don't really think players should be able to make rules against FFG in its own tournaments. These forums are spectacular for discussing fixes and such, but as great as they are in that fashion as a grassroots movement, I think that FFG should (and may well) use them for inspiration in their own official curating of the game.

That being said, I do think that squirrelfox's philosophy on change in the game is ideal, if maybe a little bit optimistic. I'd rather see the game move forward and evolve to make itself work, rather than go backward and simply fix cards.

This brings up a point. I agree with your statement, but it led me to something else, auto racing. For years, i have thought, based on people smarter than me in the business that the way you keep auto racing, especially formula one, competitive, then don't constantly change the regulations. It only hurts smaller teams without the capital to constantly retool. Of course, slowing down how often new figures come out, and re-adjusting previous figures is intuitively thought to not be good business. I'm sure their bean counters are counting on a select number of players buying everything as it comes out, but if they would slow down the release of characters and make adjustments to the meta (outside of just pouring in new figures and new abilities into it to further convolute it) they would probably find new players willing to invest, knowing they have the time to catch up if they can't afford to keep shilling out coin on FFG's schedule.

I think FFG will probably just mill out figures until they just stop selling well, then it will dump the game and remake it using the same IP as a part duex.

On 5/30/2017 at 10:40 AM, Rikalonius said:

I think FFG will probably just mill out figures until they just stop selling well, then it will dump the game and remake it using the same IP as a part duex.

Yup.

On 5/30/2017 at 10:40 AM, Rikalonius said:

I think FFG will probably just mill out figures until they just stop selling well, then it will dump the game and remake it using the same IP as a part duex.

A definite possibility.

Out with the old, in with the "new and improved" version.

Hopefully by then there will be enough material out there for an unlimited number of custom campaigns with all the big names.

No. A small group of players that don't work for FFG should not get to force rules changes on all the rest of us. FFG is already fixing this, any effort being put into it by the players is just passing in the wind once the official release comes out. It's fine if you want to push this onto your own playgroup, but the last thing I would want is to meet someone new for a skirmish game that tells me they only play by "forum rules" and whip out their 6 pt Han Solo that has Assault, Heroic, Responsive, and Lucky tacked on to it.

Despite what nonsense team covenant might be trying to push on their podcast, game rules don't have to cater to player consent, players must play to the consent of the rules, which must be objective and cannot function if subjectivism is allowed.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

No. A small group of players that don't work for FFG should not get to force rules changes on all the rest of us. FFG is already fixing this, any effort being put into it by the players is just passing in the wind once the official release comes out. It's fine if you want to push this onto your own playgroup, but the last thing I would want is to meet someone new for a skirmish game that tells me they only play by "forum rules" and whip out their 6 pt Han Solo that has Assault, Heroic, Responsive, and Lucky tacked on to it.

Despite what nonsense team covenant might be trying to push on their podcast, game rules don't have to cater to player consent, players must play to the consent of the rules, which must be objective and cannot function if subjectivism is allowed.

Yeah that's not what I was suggesting.

I don't disagree with anything you've stated.

2 minutes ago, Quigman said:

Yeah that's not what I was suggesting.

I don't disagree with anything you've stated.

Okay, I must have misunderstood this statement then.

On 5/25/2017 at 10:28 PM, Quigman said:

I think, even agreeing/voting on what these fixes/changes should look like should allow the producers/designers/makers to formally come out with an errata so that people can immediately incorporate the changes into their game.

I don't really get the point then if FFG already has fixes coming down the pipeline. Heart of the Empire has 2 more unrevealed character specific skirmish upgrades. Also FFG can't just take community created content and sell it, there's major legal issues in doing something like that which comes up against copyright law and leaves FFG open to litigation and prevents them from owning the intellectual property they are selling.

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Additionally, you'll find a trio of new skirmish upgrades designed to add flexibility to some of the game's most iconic figures. - https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/5/5/heart-of-the-empire/

I guess you're saying that FFG should just put out a free PDF for everyone to download instead of sticking cards into expansions that we have to buy? Yeah that would be nice, but FFG isn't a charity so it's not hard to figure out why they are sticking high demand character fixes into new products, obviously they are using the community's demand for this type of thing to sell more expansions. There is a non-zero amount of Jawa and Heart of the Empire expansions that would have gone unsold had there not been an IG-88 or Darth Vader fix card in there that some player wanted enough to buy something they otherwise wouldn't have, and that's more money for FFG.

I'll say this, I'm grateful that Imperial Assault doesn't have "Epic" scale products that are $90 MSRP and full of product that can't be used in Standard play but has critical exclusive upgrades bundled in it that make it a necessary purchase. The Jawa was a pretty easy pick up for me after dealing with the Imperial Raider in X-Wing.

FFG has fixes coming yes, but more than likely only for the big names.

Vader, Han, Chewy, Boba, maybe vehicles like at-st and tank, maybe RGC.

I'm speaking more of the heroes, like Saska, Biv, Gaarkhan.

If FFG were to create a survey that listed each hero/figure with a standard, do you think this character needs a "fix" and if so, here are 5 options to choose from to fix it(generic like less cost, better abilities, more health, etc) then that information could be pooled, viewed, and then the designers could come up with the errata or a "fix" they saw fit.

I'm more interested in an opportunity for the community to participate and help the designers fix previous cards so they can focus on new stuff.

This, in no way forces rules upon anyone as FFG would be in complete control of changes, if any.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but FFG doesn't operate that way, at least since I started playing their games back in 2013. And you certainly aren't the first person to make a post like this in an FFG forum, the X-Wing forum is full of people since 2014 who actually literally think FFG wants to read their card designs and implement them into the game (FFG can't do that). An FFG rep or mod has never responded to any of those threads, in fact the only time I think I've ever seen an FFG rep respond to any thread with an actual post (email responses are common) was the recent thread on the X-Wing player cheating at worlds on the twitch stream when people starting doxing him.

I get that you are trying to create a positive change in the game, which I love, but nothing that gets posted on these forums is going to be implemented into the game by FFG, in fact it might even have the opposite effect where FFG probably has to avoid implementing anything that was created by a user here on the forums. FFG needs to be able to claim intellectual propriety of anything they put on the shelves to enforce their copyrights, and copying something off of the forums, even with permission, means they can't do that.

As the designer and producer of the game, FFG solely bears the right and responsibility to fix any design and production issues as a whole, so let FFG fix the design issues. As players, we get to effect change within our communities and playgroups, and I think that's a better place to put your creative efforts. That's my take on it anyway.

11 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but FFG doesn't operate that way, at least since I started playing their games back in 2013. And you certainly aren't the first person to make a post like this in an FFG forum, the X-Wing forum is full of people since 2014 who actually literally think FFG wants to read their card designs and implement them into the game (FFG can't do that). An FFG rep or mod has never responded to any of those threads, in fact the only time I think I've ever seen an FFG rep respond to any thread with an actual post (email responses are common) was the recent thread on the X-Wing player cheating at worlds on the twitch stream when people starting doxing him.

I get that you are trying to create a positive change in the game, which I love, but nothing that gets posted on these forums is going to be implemented into the game by FFG, in fact it might even have the opposite effect where FFG probably has to avoid implementing anything that was created by a user here on the forums. FFG needs to be able to claim intellectual propriety of anything they put on the shelves to enforce their copyrights, and copying something off of the forums, even with permission, means they can't do that.

As the designer and producer of the game, FFG solely bears the right and responsibility to fix any design and production issues as a whole, so let FFG fix the design issues. As players, we get to effect change within our communities and playgroups, and I think that's a better place to put your creative efforts. That's my take on it anyway.

Well said, and fair enough.

I think the big names are really the ones that need fixing, though. It's a Star Wars game. It's about time it starts becoming productive to field Han, Chewie, Vader, AT-STs, etc.

Shame about characters like Saska, but they're hardly iconic. FFG has 2-3 chances every boxed release to bring in viable heroes. Even if just a single one really sticks, that's at least something. I don't think we really have the time to worry about fixing every single thing from the core box and older boxes- at least not with card rewrites. If, say, a command card ends up strengthening Gaarkhan, great!

yeah, I think they are just going to keep releasing new stereotype heroes or tropes.

HotE has another Sniper figure, another Brawler figure and another bomb figure. I think it's also a shame about Biv, Saska, Ghaarkan, etc. but I think they'll just move on.

27 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

yeah, I think they are just going to keep releasing new stereotype heroes or tropes.

HotE has another Sniper figure, another Brawler figure and another bomb figure. I think it's also a shame about Biv, Saska, Ghaarkan, etc. but I think they'll just move on.

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but I don't really see it worth salvaging them when we could just soldier on.

Rebels are a weird faction in this game. While Empire and Mercs are comprised almost entirely of generic units and iconic villains (with the exceptions being the boxed Trooper villains), the Rebel heroes are a huge part of their respective faction. Thing is, we're approaching almost two dozen rebel heroes before long- throw in the options from iconic allies and generic troopers, too, and I don't think there's really much that some of the older heroes can bring that a new hero couldn't do more effectively.

After all, if we're getting fixes to heroes, we should probably get them for campaign above all. That's really what they started for- they're more or less repurposed for skirmish.