Hey all!

I doubt this is a novel idea (as I'm sure someone much smarter than I has come up with this earlier than I have), but I'd like to get your opinions on this build:

Kylo Ren - Upsilon-class Shuttle [34]
Daredevil [3]
Fire Control System [2]
Engine Upgrade [4]
Inspiring Recruit [1]
Kylo Ren's Shuttle [2]
Pattern Analyser [2]
[48]

• Daredevil will allow you to make white 1-turns which, coupled with the ship's native 1-turn (albeit red...that's where Pattern Analyser comes in), would effectively turn you 180 degrees (with a small transposition) and tackle the shuttle's biggest weak-spot...it's super poor manoeuvrability.
• FCS gives you "free" target locks just for shooting at the enemy. This allows you to not have to rely on actions to get it and with 4 red dice, target locks are yummy.
• Engine upgrade is there primarily to not have to roll 2 red dice whenever you use daredevil. The fact that it gives you a Boost action just in case you want to close or increase a gap is a welcome bonus.
• Inspiring recruit is there to remove the double stress you get when you do a red 1-turn and then get a second stress after performing daredevil. It also helps mitigate ( not counter) some of the stress lists flying about out there.
• Kylo Ren's Shuttle...well handing out stress is great...doesn't hurt that it's one of the ways to deal with Attani Mind Link too.
• Pattern Analyser will mostly be used in conjunction with Daredevil. But it's also nice doing a red maneuver and getting a Boost or Coordinate action!

This build still has one Crew and Tech slot still open, allowing you to flavour it however you want depending on your list. You can slap on a Targeting Synchroniser and Weapons Engineer on there if your other ships are ordinance, or even a Rebel Captive and Sensor Cluster if you want a bit more defence.

Most people assumed, and some even play it as such, that the Upsilon was going to be purely a support ship. While I see the merit in such a theory, I much prefer flying the ship aggressively with it's 4 red dice and FCS. The fact that this build allows me to turn round and attack pursuers is a huge plus.

The biggest drawback of this build is its price. It easily eats half of your list's points but at 6 hull and 6 shield it's fairly beefy. Plus a turn the opponent's ships fire at Kylo, is a turn he doesn't shoot your other ships (2 bombers with ordinance or a beefy ace like Quickdraw).

Right now, my favourite pairing with this Kylo is a fat Quickdraw (Expertise, FCS, LWF, title, Primed Thrusters, and a missile if I have points left) and, since the reveal of Lieutenant Kestal, a fat Kestral (Expertise, 2 Homing Missiles, Shield Upgrade, TLT). I'm open to hear some suggestions to one or more partners for this Kylo!

You're paying 8pts to turn around IF that move isn't blocked for your big-*** base at any point.

That's 8pts you can spend a lot more wisely elsewhere.

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

You're paying 8pts to turn around IF that move isn't blocked for your big-*** base at any point.

That's 8pts you can spend a lot more wisely elsewhere.

I don't particularly see that 8pts as a waste as each card can be used individually and still be useful. And to be honest, I've never had any problems with blocking playing this build in the 4-5 test games. Then again, I've never played against a list that has a dedicated bump-ship.

Yes, it's expensive, but considering you're spending points on an Upsilon, you'd be hard pressed to find a good use of those 8 points elsewhere without defanging this murdership. Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying but a list with this ship is a bit of a Sophie's choice for target priority. Many people see the 4 red dice and FCS and Kylo Ren and its points cost and go for it, ignoring the other 2 ships/ace at their peril. It's kind of dangerous to ignore it but also dangerous to focus on it.

I like a Kylo shuttle but I think you have to accept its limitations and keep it lean. If it starts getting north of 40pts I get really nervous.

I am a believer, it's the first build I did with my Upsilon and ran it with Procket Inquisitor and naked Countdown. I use to run Bossk with Daredevil + Engines and loved it, so I gave it a shot on Ups. Big problem I found is whatever ship you have TL with FCS, will get out of the way, or just ram into you, then you shoot naked dice, yet again. I REALLY wanted Weapons Engineer as keeping a single target was difficult, or run it with an S/F equipped with target synch to supply a second TL if needed. I have only got two games in with it. Not impressive performance, but I think it has potential. Kylo Ability comes with it, so that is a bonus.

What about support for the shuttle in shape of blocker and Vessery moving targets around into Kylo arc or out of it? Rutlessness to provide some tools against Biggs squads or swarms...

Colonel Vessery (35)
Ruthlessness (3)
Tractor Beam (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 52

Drop Kylo shuttle and you've got yourself a lovely build

Okay, first note, I actaully dont like FCS on Kylo. its too hard to keep a target in arc, nay, to have A target in arce to get reliable utility from that.

Second note. The Upsilon WILL bump, a lot. Accept this as a fact of like. Their is a solution to both these problems

Advanced sensors, and focus based mods. Recon Spec, and Weapons guidance minus Pattern Anaylzer. 80% odds of 4 hits on a target without needed a lock, and you get the mod before your bump with advanced sensors. In fact, a great strategy to pull of a slow roll, is to keep another ship in front of kylo, Kylo and but in a 2 speed green menuever every turn, clear stress, and intentionally bump without concern.

There is another HUGE benefit to this formation, if a target tries to intentionally bump you to negate your shot, they will likely bum into your self bumper instead, allowing you to keep your shot. This is a more expensive build, but this is the FAT kylo build. Might as well go all the way.

1 hour ago, DarthCognis said:

Okay, first note, I actaully dont like FCS on Kylo. its too hard to keep a target in arc, nay, to have A target in arce to get reliable utility from that.

Second note. The Upsilon WILL bump, a lot. Accept this as a fact of like. Their is a solution to both these problems

Advanced sensors, and focus based mods. Recon Spec, and Weapons guidance minus Pattern Anaylzer. 80% odds of 4 hits on a target without needed a lock, and you get the mod before your bump with advanced sensors. In fact, a great strategy to pull of a slow roll, is to keep another ship in front of kylo, Kylo and but in a 2 speed green menuever every turn, clear stress, and intentionally bump without concern.

There is another HUGE benefit to this formation, if a target tries to intentionally bump you to negate your shot, they will likely bum into your self bumper instead, allowing you to keep your shot. This is a more expensive build, but this is the FAT kylo build. Might as well go all the way.

I'm in the same boat. ASTS, Adv Sensors, maybe the title.

How about

Kylo, RAGE+Inspiring recruit+Advanced sensors

Gunner, weapons guidance, and countermeasures as cherries and frosting. Nearly 100% chance of 4-5 hits on a bump.

Pro Tip+Fly a cheap Tie fighter in front of Kylo, she soaks up the bumps (and hopefully some fire) intentionally bump every turn to dramatically slow roll kylo in a way that can extend your joust for a couple of key turns.

Finish off with an Ace, like the Inquisitor or Darth Vader with Decoy (Kylo at PS9 shooting anyone?)

13 hours ago, SOTL said:

I'm in the same boat. ASTS, Adv Sensors, maybe the title.

What's ASTS?

12 minutes ago, Glyph said:

What's ASTS?

A Score To Settle. Gives you free focus mods on your attacks without an action and even if you're stressed, plus it works beautifully with Kylo's ability - they don't really want to shoot Kylo to get their free crit, and it helps you get crits for ISYTDS.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

A Score To Settle. Gives you free focus mods on your attacks without an action and even if you're stressed, plus it works beautifully with Kylo's ability - they don't really want to shoot Kylo to get their free crit, and it helps you get crits for ISYTDS.

Yeah, good idea, but what if you happen to roll 2 Blanks or worse, 3? Weapons Guidance is an answer to only one blank. Is Advanced Sensors really that much better than FCS?

Just now, Glyph said:

Yeah, good idea, but what if you happen to roll 2 Blanks or worse, 3? Weapons Guidance is an answer to only one blank. Is Advanced Sensors really that much better than FCS?

It's a bit of repurposing...

Fire Control System requires attacking the same target on multiple occasions, which is not an easy thing for the shuttle to do. Fire Control System is still very good, obviously, but it's less good on the Upsilon than it is on most other ships. You can say "ahah, but I can shoot and then red stop to keep them in front of me and use my TL" but...

Advanced Sensors works with the red stop because it gives you the action to take a TL before you stop, so in that example it's the same. It gives you more flexibility on target locking something you definitely shoot instead of watching your FCS target shoot past your arc, and most importantly it works really nice to keep Coordinate happening. You've got Coordinate available when you do a red move or get bumped, and you've also got control over whether you use it before/after your move if the ship you want to Coordinate is out of range.

What do you guys think of this, then?

Kylo Ren - Upsilon-class Shuttle [34]
A Score to Settle [0]
Fire Control System [2]
· Rebel Captive [3]
Weapons Engineer [3]
· Kylo Ren's Shuttle [2]
Weapons Guidance [2]
Targeting Sychroniser [3]
[49]

Quickdraw - TIE/sf Fighter [29]
Expertise [4]
Electronic Baffle [1]
Lightweight Frame [2]
Special Ops Training [0]
Pattern Analyser [2]
[38]

Academy Pilot - TIE Fighter [12]
[12]

That's a real mess, to my mind.

As discussed I don't like FCS on the shuttle but then you've trebled-down on the thing I don't like at great expense with Weapons Engineer and Targeting Synchroniser. Weapons Guidance over on top is just more points wasted - if you've got FCS you'll have target locks to reroll blanks anyway, and if you've got the focus token to use Weapons Guidance then a TL & Focus serves 75% of the purpose of Weapons Guidance.

And then Targeting Synchroniser, which is another bit I don't get as I don't see what it's for? Quickdraw is firing before the shuttle so won't be able to benefit from the target locks set by the Upsilon unless they were set the turn before, and even then I don't get why you're on Expertise/Baffle and spending multiple points extra (both for Expertise & Targeting Synch) over Rage for the same effect that wouldn't limit you to red moves when you want it. And then Pattern Analyser AND Electronic Baffle? So when you do a red move you can take an action before the stress but then ignore the stress so you could have taken the action afterwards?

I guess you could Targeting Synch the two dice of the Academy Pilot?

I think there must be like 10-15 points in this list that aren't actually doing anything very much.

I'll try and answer my rationale as I go through your post, my friend. Though from your reaction you're making me feel like my train of thought is abnormal and insane haha

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

As discussed I don't like FCS on the shuttle but then you've trebled-down on the thing I don't like at great expense with Weapons Engineer and Targeting Synchroniser. Weapons Guidance over on top is just more points wasted - if you've got FCS you'll have target locks to reroll blanks anyway, and if you've got the focus token to use Weapons Guidance then a TL & Focus serves 75% of the purpose of Weapons Guidance.

We all know what FCS does. Yes, unless I target lock as my action I won't have it working on my first volley, but I don't see that as such a hinderance as I'd have a focus to help me. Every turn after that I have a lock on my target AND another ship at Range 1-3 doubling my chances of having at least one of those ships in my arc the following turn.

Targeting Synchroniser is there to compensate for the lack of FCS on Quickdraw (which is my usual build for her).

Weapons Guidance is there to help me in the first volley to guarantee the FCS locks. In following turns, it's there to help my rolls. Many-a-time I blank out on my attack dice only to score one hit with the target lock's reroll. If I crit/hit with all red dice I really don't have the justification to complain about spending points on WG...if I get some blanks or some eyeballs I'd use the focus to get as many hits as possible after the reroll.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

And then Targeting Synchroniser, which is another bit I don't get as I don't see what it's for? Quickdraw is firing before the shuttle so won't be able to benefit from the target locks set by the Upsilon unless they were set the turn before, and even then I don't get why you're on Expertise/Baffle and spending multiple points extra (both for Expertise & Targeting Synch) over Rage for the same effect that wouldn't limit you to red moves when you want it. And then Pattern Analyser AND Electronic Baffle? So when you do a red move you can take an action before the stress but then ignore the stress so you could have taken the action afterwards?

Quickdraw's build allows me to always make use of Expertise. I can sloop (or do any of the other 4 red moves), take the shield damage to get rid of the stress, do the attack while making use of Expertise (and possibly a target lock if the dice gods hate me with Targeting Synchroniser), and then take another action such as barrel roll to get out of arc or line up another shot during the Shooting Phase. Obviously this isn't an every-turn move but can be used for a nasty alpha strike or, if the chips are down, finish off a ship even at the sacrifice of Quickdraw (extreme I know, but I like having the option).

Pattern Analyser is there on the turns I don't want, or can't afford, to take that 1 damage. I could replace it with primed Thrusters, but at just 1pt extra I like the extra options of other actions.

I know my list seems a bit meh, but I like builds and ships that work well with each other and provide contingencies and back-ups just in case things don't go according to plan. I've played many lists that are streamlined and have only one way to do their "trick" and Murphy's law always bites me in the ****. I prefer spending 5 or so extra points to have some form of ease-of-mind.

I apologise if my reasonings and rationales frustrated you.

Not frustrated, just trying to help. I don't build to maximise ships I build to maximise the squad.

You've got two ships that have got every little gadget and gizmo they could want to cover every possibility... and an Academy Pilot. Your list overall is far less effective that it could be because you're spending points covering corner cases.

4 minutes ago, Glyph said:

Quickdraw's build allows me to always make use of Expertise. I can sloop (or do any of the other 4 red moves), take the shield damage to get rid of the stress, do the attack while making use of Expertise (and possibly a target lock if the dice gods hate me with Targeting Synchroniser), and then take another action such as barrel roll to get out of arc or line up another shot during the Shooting Phase. Obviously this isn't an every-turn move but can be used for a nasty alpha strike or, if the chips are down, finish off a ship even at the sacrifice of Quickdraw (extreme I know, but I like having the option).

Pattern Analyser is there on the turns I don't want, or can't afford, to take that 1 damage. I could replace it with primed Thrusters, but at just 1pt extra I like the extra options of other actions.

Dont forget about Pattern Analyzer if you sloop. If tosses check pilot stress after perform action, so you can sloop, take a TL, then get stress, baffle stress, attack with full mod shot. That is the beauty of Expertise/Baffle/PA. You can just hard 1 turn on someone and range 1 in the face

In any case, I dont think Quickdraw is the right endgame ship. Backdraft is probably the better choice here with FCS and Sensor Clusters. Also, when Kylo goes down, IWSYTD crit is still in play, and Backdraft's butt shot has the better opportunity to get it through, and if it drops Fenn to PS0 that can be game changer.

Also, for 38pts you can fit in Echo, and with Kylo's ability to PS0 aces. Put rebel captive on Echo to protect against Expertise Dengar, swap Target Synch for Operation Specialist on Kylo and Weapons Guidance for Pattern Analyzer so you can do like a stop maneuver and coordinate for Echo (giving her an evade before she even moves, or a barrel-roll even).

• Kylo Ren - A Score To Settle, Advanced Sensors, Kylo Ren's Shuttle (39)
• Omega Leader - Juke, Comm Relay (26)
• Quickdraw - Rage, Electronic Baffle, Primed Thrusters, Special Ops Training, Lightweight Frame (34)

If I was messing about I might consider Boshek on the shuttle to drop Primed Thrusters.