14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that mindlink is twice as good as PTL. With PTL on 3 ships you're getting 3 extra actions per turn, with the requirement that they all have to do green. With 3 Mindlink, you're only getting 2 extra actions per turn, on the two that gain the free focus tokens (outside of guri/palob shenanigans). And it's inherently limited to a single type of extra action. It ONLy passes focus, so one ship always has to focus to get the free actions, then the other two are free to do whatever. PTL you're free to do any two actions you want.

If you look at it from the angle of "an extra action per turn generally costs about 3 points", then mindlink should cost 2. Put it on 3 ships, you've paid 6 points and get 2 free actions per round (as long as you have 3 mindlinked ships alive).

Mindlink also doesn't cost 1/3 of the cost of PtL, unless we're talking theory. I mean yeah, you could get 1 Mindlink for 1/3 of the price of PtL, but 1 Mindlink does exactly nothing. You need 2 to gain 1 extra action (equivalent to PtL).

Just now, LordBlades said:

Mindlink also doesn't cost 1/3 of the cost of PtL , unless we're talking theory. I mean yeah, you could get 1 Mindlink for 1/3 of the price of PtL , but 1 Mindlink does exactly nothing. You need 2 to gain 1 extra action (equivalent to PtL ).

I might have misread what I quoted. Was reading it as saying 3 mindlinks was about twice as good as 3 PTLs. If you pay 1/3 the cost of PTL (3 mindlinks vs 1 ptl), then yes, you're getting ~double the effect (2 free actions vs 1). That matches up with what I was saying about a free action being worth abuot 3 points, meaning mindlink shoul dhave been 2 points since the most common lists using it seem to be 3 ships (would get a slight discount with 4 ships in that you'd be getting 3 free actions for 8 points instead of 9).

12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Alternatively, ban the Jumpmasters and the Lancers and the Protectorates, and I'm sure you'd see Mindlinked G1-As and Mindlinked Aggressors and other Mindlinked Scum ships rise to the top.

Assuming your forum presence you play rebels? Have you flown G1A? Do you see any B- wings on top right now? The G1A has Evade instead of native barrel roll , straight 3 and 4 are green, 3 and 4K instead of 2K. Illicit and crew instead of 2torp, cannon. Costs 1pt more.

It has 6 (!) red maneuvres and no native reposition, not a good starting position for mindlink. While I like the G1A, I would be surprised seeing it ruling the top.

34 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I might have misread what I quoted. Was reading it as saying 3 mindlinks was about twice as good as 3 PTLs. If you pay 1/3 the cost of PTL (3 mindlinks vs 1 ptl), then yes, you're getting ~double the effect (2 free actions vs 1). That matches up with what I was saying about a free action being worth abuot 3 points, meaning mindlink shoul dhave been 2 points since the most common lists using it seem to be 3 ships (would get a slight discount with 4 ships in that you'd be getting 3 free actions for 8 points instead of 9).

There's also an opportunity cost to consider.

Mindlink requires you to occupy the EPT slot of multiple ships. PtL occupies the EPT slot of a single ship, leaving the others free to either equip other EPTs (even 0 cost ones), or be ships without EPT.

45 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

There's also an opportunity cost to consider.

Mindlink requires you to occupy the EPT slot of multiple ships. PtL occupies the EPT slot of a single ship, leaving the others free to either equip other EPTs (even 0 cost ones), or be ships without EPT.

'Opportunity cost' is one of the easiest things to overvalue. You don't even need to work out what you would have done instead or how much better it was, you can just hide behind it for anything.

For the love of God, stop trying to compare PTL to Mindlink and say one is better than the other.

Mindlink costs only 1 point for a reason. You need 3 of them to take up 3 EPT slots in order to start producing the efficiency of two PTL. And that efficiency is lost as soon your ships start dying. Same as when you get stressed, you lose all your efficiency and your maneuvers are restricted.

This is why mindlink costs 1 point. And it's it's still a great upgrade. And it's better than PTL in certain scenarios. That doesn't make it broken, that's what upgrades do: they are good at a specific thing. PTL is also amazeballs, but it restricts the ships to greens, and you don't get anything if you bump.

My entire point was that, these are 2 great upgrades that are far from broken. It just happened that mindlink works well with a certain broken ship.

And for the 10000th time: If it was broken, other lists would be using it. But they re not. Just as nobody else was broken with zuckuss except dengar. But u thought he was OP. Great insight there boys.

Something I feel the need to add having read some more of last nights posts. A lot of people feel mindlink is bad because it allows tokens when you get blocked, rocked or stressed.

There are so many ways already in the game to get tokens despite being stressed, blocked or bumped. Mindlink is the only way to share it around the whole squad but it also shares the downside around the entire squad.

Why does no one moan about Keyan, Soontir, Garven, Kyle Katarn, Rey crew, Moldy Crow, Dauntless, Outlaw Tech etc. ? Because they are not seen on horribly efficient ships. I really don't think it's anything to do with the block/rock/stress thing; it's frustration born out of having to face it a LOT on some under costed ships.

Who posts on the forum moaning that the Jake Farrell and Kyle in his HWK list is WAAAAAY OP because I blocked Jake then he got 3 actions in the combat phase? OR because Garven assigned his spent focus token to a stressed ship? Or because Keyan spent his stress as a focus? OR because I blocked AND stressed Miranda and she just got a token from Rey?

Before all the calls of "false parralels"; my point isn't anything to do with the cost/efficiency of these abilities but if these are such NPE mechanics then why have they been here for a while? Un-nerfed? I honestly believe some of this great nerfing crusade is down to people hating playing the same thing over and over as opposed to mechanics being truly broken.

It's been said many times in this thread; it took the 3 top dogs from Scums arsenal to come along before it became a monster. These other abilities do the same things; just on much worse frames. Not trying to flame or call anyone out here; I just think psychological and human factors have a lot more to do with things than number crunchers like to allow credit for.

5 minutes ago, haritos said:

For the love of God, stop trying to compare PTL to Mindlink and say one is better than the other.

Mindlink costs only 1 point for a reason. You need 3 of them to take up 3 EPT slots in order to start producing the efficiency of two PTL. And that efficiency is lost as soon your ships start dying. Same as when you get stressed, you lose all your efficiency and your maneuvers are restricted.

This is why mindlink costs 1 point. And it's it's still a great upgrade. And it's better than PTL in certain scenarios. That doesn't make it broken, that's what upgrades do: they are good at a specific thing. PTL is also amazeballs, but it restricts the ships to greens, and you don't get anything if you bump.

My entire point was that, these are 2 great upgrades that are far from broken. It just happened that mindlink works well with a certain broken ship.

And for the 10000th time: If it was broken, other lists would be using it. But they re not. Just as nobody else was broken with zuckuss except dengar. But u thought he was OP. Great insight there boys.

And the point pretty much everyone else is making is that both are true: Mindlink and certain Scum ships are broken, in isolation, individually, apart from one another. The extent to which one is more broken than the other is a worthwhile debate though.

It's probably fair to say that Mindlink is a great EPT because of its force multiplying ability. It makes already good ships better but has a relatively weaker effect on already weak ships. I think the best fix for the current problems would include a minor nerf to Mindlink followed by a serious look at the JM5K.

47 minutes ago, SOTL said:

'Opportunity cost' is one of the easiest things to overvalue. You don't even need to work out what you would have done instead or how much better it was, you can just hide behind it for anything.

It's also one of the easiest things to ignore. How many of the posts comparing PtL with Mindlink simply ignore the fact that Mindlink requires several EPT slots for example ? I have not seen a single person arguing that Mindlink is broken mentioning it.

Just now, LordBlades said:

It's also one of the easiest things to ignore. How many of the posts comparing PtL with Mindlink simply ignore the fact that Mindlink requires several EPT slots for example ? I have not seen a single person arguing that Mindlink is broken mentioning it.

Well, none because it's barely relevant.

If Option A is better than other available options then the fact that it stops you taking those options is not really important.

Forgot to quote..

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that mindlink is twice as good as PTL. With PTL on 3 ships you're getting 3 extra actions per turn, with the requirement that they all have to do green. With 3 Mindlink, you're only getting 2 extra actions per turn, on the two that gain the free focus tokens (outside of guri/palob shenanigans). And it's inherently limited to a single type of extra action. It ONLy passes focus, so one ship always has to focus to get the free actions, then the other two are free to do whatever. PTL you're free to do any two actions you want.

If you look at it from the angle of "an extra action per turn generally costs about 3 points", then mindlink should cost 2. Put it on 3 ships, you've paid 6 points and get 2 free actions per round (as long as you have 3 mindlinked ships alive).

I agree with all of that except the "should cost 2" part.

Maybe a "costs 2 on unique pilots but otherwise 1" would be okay though.

Two for the first copy, one for every subsequent copy maybe...

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Two for the first copy, one for every subsequent copy maybe...

Which is the opposite of how it should work, as it's the 3rd/4th/5th copies that add the value.

"Opportunity Cost" is zero if Mindlink is a better choice than any other EPT. Mindlink is probably fine on ships that do not have green hard turns and native repositioning. Solution: errata Mindlink to remove the green turns. It won't fix JM5K but it helps.

If Mindlink did not exist, Crackshot Torp boats and PtL Fenn would probably be the new hotness. There is no question that the fundamental imbalance in Scum is due to the "aggressive" (read: broken) costing of the Jumpmaster, Asajj, and Fenn. Without Minkdink the Jumpmaster is still a problem (all four pilots), Asajj is borderline, and Fenn is probably fine.

7 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

"Opportunity Cost" is zero if Mindlink is a better choice than any other EPT. Mindlink is probably fine on ships that do not have green hard turns and native repositioning. Solution: errata Mindlink to remove the green turns. It won't fix JM5K but it helps.

If Mindlink did not exist, Crackshot Torp boats and PtL Fenn would probably be the new hotness. There is no question that the fundamental imbalance in Scum is due to the "aggressive" (read: broken) costing of the Jumpmaster, Asajj, and Fenn. Without Minkdink the Jumpmaster is still a problem (all four pilots), Asajj is borderline, and Fenn is probably fine.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure Assaj's cost per se is the problem. It seems like it might be Assaj WITH Latts that's an issue. Maybe Latts should take their stress away and give it to you instead... I also think it's an issue an issue that Latts is just completely useless to anyone EXCEPT assaj, and is stapled to her like RGP and AUtothrusters are to Soontir.

15 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

If Mindlink did not exist, Crackshot Torp boats and PtL Fenn would probably be the new hotness...

Or VI Teroch, Ketsu or Tel. Oh wait... VI Tel...

Just now, FTS Gecko said:

Or VI Teroch, Ketsu or Tel. Oh wait... VI Tel...

Dengar/Tel and Dengar/Assaj.

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

With PTL on 3 ships you're getting 3 extra actions per turn, with the requirement that they all have to do green. With 3 Mindlink, you're only getting 2 extra actions per turn, on the two that gain the free focus tokens (outside of guri/palob shenanigans).

And Manaroo and Kaatos, two other Scum ships that can pass/take a Focus and generate another Focus in the process. Kaatos doesn't see much top-table play, but I encounter him a bit locally where he's a very cheap filler ship in a Triple Mindlink list, and his ability to steal a Focus (and then regenerate one from who he stole from) makes him a tough little ship to crack for his points, since he'll often be double-focused. Manaroo, of course, is still quite popular despite her nerf.

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

And it's inherently limited to a single type of extra action. It ONLy passes focus, so one ship always has to focus to get the free actions, then the other two are free to do whatever. PTL you're free to do any two actions you want.

Sure, but as I noted, Focus is typically the action every ship wants every turn. While that's not always the case, Focus is still far and away the best action given its flexibility. You never see a ship perform a TL action unless it's already getting a Focus or absolutely needs the TL for an ability or secondary weapon (e.g. Omega Leader), since Focus is incredibly flexible in who you spend it against and has no range requirement when you perform it, and it has the same expected total hits as TL. At three+ green dice, Evade is as good (3 green dice) or better (4+ green dice) than an Evade token when it comes to expected evade results. So, since Focus is usable offensively or defensively, it's always the first of the "modifier" actions you perform.

Also, worth pointing out that PtL isn't entirely unrestricted as you suggest, as the free action has to come from your Action Bar and not an upgrade or damage card.

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that mindlink is twice as good as PTL.

I think what you're overlooking (or at least your reply here didn't mention it) is that Mindlink has built-in protection against overlaps with ships, obstacles, and weaponized stress. When a PtL ship bumps an obstacle or ship or gets double-stressed by a stresshog, it loses all its actions and goes from 2 --> 0 (or "3" --> 0 in the case of Fel, Inquisitor, Ryad, or Jake). The old go-to strat to beat Fel in his Wave 8-9 prime was to to block him with one ship then kill him when he was actionless. This doesn't work as easily against Mindlink ships, because even if one gets bumped or double-stressed it's still getting a Focus unless all the Mindlinked ships get bumped or double-stressed. So a Mindlink ship typically only goes from 2 --> 1 action when it loses its Perform Action step, as opposed to a PtL ship going from 2 --> 0. This is where I think the majority of the extra value comes from with Mindlink .

Mindlink is, in many cases, close to the effectiveness of PtL. You're right that PtL allows for two non-Focus actions, but the majority of the time I think PtL ships are focusing anyways. You're also right that a triple PtL list is getting 3 free actions for 9 points, whereas a triple Mindlink list is only getting 2 free focus actions for 3 points (ignoring Guri, Palob, Manaroo etc). But Mindlink approaches pretty close to PtL levels of efficiency for a third of the cost. Then you factor in that bumps/double-stress only reduce Mindlink ships to 1 Action instead of the 0 it does for PtL ships, and I think it's fair to say Mindlink has more value than PtL for less cost. Is it roughly twice the value for a third of the cost? I dunno, maybe I oversimplified the math too much and rounded too much, but I think it's at least close.

17 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

"Opportunity Cost" is zero if Mindlink is a better choice than any other EPT. Mindlink is probably fine on ships that do not have green hard turns and native repositioning. Solution: errata Mindlink to remove the green turns. It won't fix JM5K but it helps.

If Mindlink did not exist, Crackshot Torp boats and PtL Fenn would probably be the new hotness. There is no question that the fundamental imbalance in Scum is due to the "aggressive" (read: broken) costing of the Jumpmaster, Asajj, and Fenn. Without Minkdink the Jumpmaster is still a problem (all four pilots), Asajj is borderline, and Fenn is probably fine.

Crackshot torp boats won the Warez SC this Sunday. They already are the new hotness. PtL Fenn has always been a thing in our local meta too. People thought i was nuts for running mindlink on him at first. Removing mindlink does nowt to curb the Jumps.

13 hours ago, Ladrillito said:

My personal suggestion: you cannot equip attani mindlink if your pilot skill is 6 or higher.

Prevents Assaj, Fenn and Teroch from taking it, while generic Scyks, Firesprays, Kihraxzes, G1-As, Guri, Palob and Manaroo (JumpMaster nerf still needed) get to keep it. It also doesn't increase the power of stress-dealing mechanics.

...b-but sempai, Attani Mindlink is how Dengar-san learned to love again...

3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

It's also one of the easiest things to ignore. How many of the posts comparing PtL with Mindlink simply ignore the fact that Mindlink requires several EPT slots for example ? I have not seen a single person arguing that Mindlink is broken mentioning it.

This comes up from time to time, and I've replied it to before in the following way:

Mindlink doesn't have an opportunity cost that is very high, because it's not like bringing more ships is sacrificing opportunity. You weren't ever going to run a 35pt Fenn list with a 65pt bid, so the fact that you bring other ships and put Mindlink on them is not really an opportunity cost. Especially since Scum have far and away the most generous spread of EPT-slots on their pilots.

Sure, you lose the opportunity cost of taking other EPTs, but if you're wanting to do Mindlink you're more than happy to spam it for those sweet double actions and protection against stress/bumps for 1pt. If you want to do something else with your scum EPTs (like a PS9 Dengar + PS9 VI'ed Tel/Bossk alpha strike) then yes you're not going to be running Mindlink.

It's an all or nothing sort of upgrade, but it's hardly an opportunity cost to spend your remaining points on more ships... especially when Scum have such a generous spread of efficiently-costed EPT-capable ships.

The big opportunity cost with Mindlink is to the last ship left alive. That ship loses out on the opportunity to have a functional EPT entirely for the whole time it's the last ship on the board, and that's a really big loss.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

The big opportunity cost with Mindlink is to the last ship left alive. That ship loses out on the opportunity to have a functional EPT entirely for the whole time it's the last ship on the board, and that's a really big loss.

Fair enough. Of course, most players will likely say that the gains from Mindlink far outweigh such an opportunity cost.

3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Of course, most players will likely say that the gains from Mindlink far outweigh such an opportunity cost.

...until they lose one of their ships in the first round of combat. (it can happen to the best of us, after all).