2 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Both can actually be a problem.

Deadeye never had an impact at World's, so yes, a single upgrade dominating World's the way mindlink did was actually new.

It's also worth noting that the list that was winning the late regionals and system opens did not include a jumpmaster and was built around mindlink.

Deadeye Scouts had a huge impact at 2016 worlds. The fact that they didn't (indeed, the nerf happened shortly beforehand IIRC, so 'weren't able to' is probably more accurate) win doesn't mean that they had no effect. They changed the meta of Worlds by their mere existence in the time when people were training and list building for it.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Deadeye Scouts had a huge impact at 2016 worlds. The fact that they didn't (indeed, the nerf happened shortly beforehand IIRC, so 'weren't able to' is probably more accurate) win doesn't mean that they had no effect. They changed the meta of Worlds by their mere existence in the time when people were training and list building for it.

Seriously? I really don't understand why you are parsing things to this extent.

I was trying to point out that we haven't seen an upgrade card dominate at Worlds the way mindlink has and deadeye didn't in response to a misinformed statement.

No, it didn't have the chance to, but there are clearly some lists in the top 16 that probably don't see the light of day otherwise. It could have been similar to mindlink but we really don't know.

I've played at events where I have only played against Scum lists, mind link doesn't really bother me. Their awesome frigging dials, the revenge hits and all that do but I don't really care about mindlink.

I'd be interested to see an info graphic on TLT vs everything else in the 2015 worlds breakdown.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Somebody on the Slack channel came up with a really drastic suggestion yesterday that is going to get knee-jerk hated on here but which I actually don't mind that much.

You cannot play large ships without a title equipped.

It's a kick in the nuts to the Hound's Tooth, but otherwise I genuinely don't hate it in like 90% of situations. Lambda and Deci are a bit sad, but maybe it would have made Palp Aces a bit less annoying back in the day anyway which is no bad thing.

For such a dramatic rules change (which will never happen) it's actually pretty neat.

It makes it basically pointless to ever publish large ships with generics, unless they also came with generic titles, and it would make Assaj, and low PS Jumps a lot worse. Along with the Lambda, Deci, and Upsilon, as well as the Hound's Tooth.

I'm not sure hitting the two OP things as well as FOUR things which vary from about right to extremely underpowered is a good change.

It's certainly an interesting thought though. It's not worth dismissing without serious consideration.

13 minutes ago, haritos said:

....so basically what I said. Its the ships, not the upgrade.

If you take a very narrow view, sure. If you're focusing on ships as the problem, you're closing off future design space for scum ships (good greens with an ept). Arguably, the current exploration of that same design space has revealed the problem with Mindlink, but that doesn't mean it is exclusive to it -- this is a game that allows for card interactions after all.

2 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

I'd be interested to see an info graphic on TLT vs everything else in the 2015 worlds breakdown.

6 squads used at least 1 TLT in top 16 of worlds 2015.

In that sense it was half what Mindlink was in 2017, although that's 'at least one TLT' while Mindlink stifles creativity disproportionately by taking up all three ships every time.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

6 squads used at least 1 TLT in top 16 of worlds 2015.

In that sense it was half what Mindlink was in 2017, although that's 'at least one TLT' while Mindlink stifles creativity disproportionately by taking up all three ships every time.

Interesting. I had a quick glance earlier and it looked pretty predominant. No where near as much as mindlink though.

Part of me is wondering if "taking the safe bet" has a bigger factor than most people are giving it credit for. We had another FAQ shake up before worlds and mindlink, which is very strong (no argument there), became a safe fall back option, especially for imperial players who may have had squads hit with the nerf bat and jumped ship to something safer and easier to fly over a 3 day event.

In any game where humans play; it's not just all about the math. Human factors do come into play. I wonder just how much influence the last minute list panic caused people to jump ship? We're seeing Imps winning a few SC's now; but high risk, high reward has less risk over a 1 day event.

I honestly think some psychological factors may have played a bigger part in creating that data than just the "best" upgrades. How much it actually affects that data or how to interpret that; I have no idea.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It makes it basically pointless to ever publish large ships with generics, unless they also came with generic titles, and it would make Assaj, and low PS Jumps a lot worse. Along with the Lambda, Deci, and Upsilon, as well as the Hound's Tooth.

I'm not sure hitting the two OP things as well as FOUR things which vary from about right to extremely underpowered is a good change.

It's certainly an interesting thought though. It's not worth dismissing without serious consideration.

The idea came up in another thread last week. But rather than just large ships, it was ALL ships.

It's easily done. Make sure all ships have at minimum one generic title and it'll work perfectly. Also a great excuse to bring a few things up to a better level at the same time.

FFG would just have to remember to give the Y-Wing and TIE Bomber a 2nd option each.

4 hours ago, haritos said:

I tried guys, I tried to believe in the latest propaganda. I failed.

Can someone explain to me why the mindlink tears wont stop flowing?

I get it, its good. Its really good. That's why you see it all over the place. Why is that bad? You also (used to?) see PTL all over the place. Because it's good. No, it's actually great. So are other upgrades and ships.

You do realize that mindlink is scum only and PTL is available to all faction? Make mindlink available to all and no one would complain...

4 hours ago, haritos said:

You mostly see mindlink on lists with 3 ships. Which means that basically mindlink is a card that for 3 points and 3 EPT slots total gives your list +2 focus (maybe more with manaroo), and the versatility of getting those focuses in some scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't be able to (eg. after bumping).

Let me give you an example:

- Your ship has acces to evade and focus but nothing else. If you can take only one action, what will it be like 90% of the time? A focus...

- It was considered OP for defenders to get a free evade most of the time even if you bumped, overlaped an obstacle or were stressed.

- Why would it be ok for ALL of your ship to get a free focus as long as at least one of them can take an action or have a free one (ex: Palob, Guri...). You could pilot really badly, have one ship bump, another one ending on an asteroid, a third one stressed. As long as one of your ship has a way to get a focus you are safe. All of that for 3 points.

It's OP...

It always surprises me that everyone seems to miss the actual problem with jumpmasters. It's not mindlink or their ept slot or their dial or anything other than the double torpedo slots. Remove their ordnance and the jumpmaster is a fine ship with strong but not oppressive stats or abilities. They're simply the best alpha striker in the game and the fact that they can at any point threaten 4/4 hits range 2-3 is why they are such a bastard to deal with. If they're just good ships restricted to their primaries they're not nearly as scary.

2 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Why would it be ok for ALL of your ship to get a free focus as long as at least one of them can take an action or have a free one (ex: Palob, Guri...). You could pilot really badly, have one ship bump, another one ending on an asteroid, a third one stressed. As long as one of your ship has a way to get a focus you are safe. All of that for 3 points.

And this is why my Mindlink list is Fenn, Guri, Manaroo.

I can completely cock the activation phase and still start combat with 4 focus tokens across the squad.

Just now, nigeltastic said:

It always surprises me that everyone seems to miss the actual problem with jumpmasters. It's not mindlink or their ept slot or their dial or anything other than the double torpedo slots. Remove their ordnance and the jumpmaster is a fine ship with strong but not oppressive stats or abilities. They're simply the best alpha striker in the game and the fact that they can at any point threaten 4/4 hits range 2-3 is why they are such a bastard to deal with. If they're just good ships restricted to their primaries they're not nearly as scary.

Old Fennaroo doesn't use Torps, nor do Bumpmasters.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Old Fennaroo doesn't use Torps, nor do Bumpmasters.

And I wouldn't say they're oppressive jm5k lists which push out other lists.

10 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You do realize that mindlink is scum only and PTL is available to all faction? Make mindlink available to all and no one would complain...

PTL is a great comparison in some ways but holding it up the "hey this was broken too" is misguided because while it was seen a lot in the early waves, it was because it was one of only a handful of good EPTs (and it still wasn't seen as much as mindlink).

However, after a couple waves it was and now is mostly seen on ships that can use it effectively like interceptors, Awings, and Dash, while other ships took predator. It's drawback is significant in that if you are stressed it is much harder to get an action the next turn (someone else taking a focus doesn't get it for you). PTL is a good comparison because it's good on the same type of ships and takes up the same slot and both provide action economy-- ships that have a lot of options to clear stress. It's actually noteworthy that the Mindlink versions of those ships/lists are just so much better than the PTL versions.

5 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

And I wouldn't say they're oppressive jm5k lists which push out other lists.

Old Fennaroo was literally the most common list in the Worlds top 16.

16 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You do realize that mindlink is scum only and PTL is available to all faction? Make mindlink available to all and no one would complain...

Let me give you an example:

- Your ship has acces to evade and focus but nothing else. If you can take only one action, what will it be like 90% of the time? A focus...

- It was considered OP for defenders to get a free evade most of the time even if you bumped, overlaped an obstacle or were stressed.

- Why would it be ok for ALL of your ship to get a free focus as long as at least one of them can take an action or have a free one (ex: Palob, Guri...). You could pilot really badly, have one ship bump, another one ending on an asteroid, a third one stressed. As long as one of your ship has a way to get a focus you are safe. All of that for 3 points.

It's OP...

1) I dont get the only evade or focus dilema, since most ships have more options, or just plain different options.

2) It was considered OP by who? The people who whine about everything and when you talk to them you discover they have zero arguments?

3) 3 points AND THREE EPTS. T H R E E EPTS. If you consider it amazing to give up all that so you can get a focus when you fall on every asteroid in the map and bump my ships while i also stress you and prohibidtyou from using red and possibly white maneuvers congrats.

I can do that by simply not flying like a drunk. I ll have more versatility in actions since x-wing is not called focus-wing and i ll also have 3 more points and 3 EPTs to melt you.

And you people think mindlink is OP. I should screenshot all the replies I see here so I can paste them back to you when the whiners win once more (cause of course they will) and something else simply replaces mindlink. Maybe then you ll understand mindlink was never the problem (although you failed to grasp that with deadeye, zuckuss and whatever else is im forgetting so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes high).

4 minutes ago, AlexW said:

PTL is a great comparison in some ways but holding it up the "hey this was broken too" is misguided because while it was seen a lot in the early waves, it was because it was one of only a handful of good EPTs (and it still wasn't seen as much as mindlink).

However, after a couple waves it was and now is mostly seen on ships that can use it effectively like interceptors, Awings, and Dash, while other ships took predator. It's drawback is significant in that if you are stressed it is much harder to get an action the next turn (someone else taking a focus doesn't get it for you). PTL is a good comparison because it's good on the same type of ships and takes up the same slot and both provide action economy-- ships that have a lot of options to clear stress. It's actually noteworthy that the Mindlink versions of those ships/lists are just so much better than the PTL versions.

This is definitely arguable. I'd suggest that Mindlink's only better if you have at least 3 ships. For two-ship lists I just wouldn't want to risk using it, because losing your EPT when you only have one ship left is too big of a risk when you only have two in the first place. Your endgame ship lacking any action economy at all is a really big downside to it that is exacerbated significantly with only two ships on the board.

Duncan Howard said that he would pay three points for Mindlink in his 2017 worlds fenaroo (which was 96 points, he said he would drop it down to 90 points if need to be to make room for the more expensive ML).

That made me sit up in my chair when I heard it.

I really don't understand all these endless threads on the ML and Jump topic. It's straightforward: ML was unused until three amazing ships came along that could use it properly. Now its real power is evident, and the competitive scene really, really gets it. As with all complex systems it takes multiple factors to interoperate before the new emergent design reveals itself: on its own, Fenn "Infinite Prockets" is ok. On their own, the individual components of the Jumpmaster are maybe ok, but when you combine a white sloop, great dial, big ship BR, lots of great synergistic upgrade slots, and a dubious point cost -- and then you throw ML in there -- now you have a recipe for someone like Duncan willing to take a ten point init bid.

Reminds me of the old 87 point Whisper Echo lists

Mindlink's milkshake also brings all the boys to the yard. But I'm not sure that's pertinent to the matter at hand.

26 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

It always surprises me that everyone seems to miss the actual problem with jumpmasters. It's not mindlink or their ept slot or their dial or anything other than the double torpedo slots. Remove their ordnance and the jumpmaster is a fine ship with strong but not oppressive stats or abilities. They're simply the best alpha striker in the game and the fact that they can at any point threaten 4/4 hits range 2-3 is why they are such a bastard to deal with. If they're just good ships restricted to their primaries they're not nearly as scary.

24 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Old Fennaroo doesn't use Torps, nor do Bumpmasters.

20 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

And I wouldn't say they're oppressive jm5k lists which push out other lists.

15 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Old Fennaroo was literally the most common list in the Worlds top 16.

This is a great argument that illuminates where the possible corrective measure lies.

Maybe removing a mod slot or two fixes them, IDK. If this is old info for some, please, my apologies. But, well over a month ago, some friends and I replaced the bottom of our HWK dials with our Jump dials and tried out the Jump meta lists again vs. other strong lists. The difference is stark; Jumps with wings of a HWK ain't in no way OP.

2 minutes ago, sozin said:

Reminds me of the old 87 point Whisper Echo lists

This comparison really stands out to me, and I meant to mention it in one of my early posts.

When you can seriously consider running a list with more than 3 points of init bid... there's something seriously wrong with the pricing or power level of something (or probably multiple somethings) in it. C.f. Dengar/Assaj, Dengar/Tel, Old Fennaroo, etc.

4 minutes ago, sozin said:

I really don't understand all these endless threads on the ML and Jump topic. It's straightforward: ML was unused until three amazing ships came along that could use it properly. Now its real power is evident, and the competitive scene really, really gets it.

What apparently is not straightforward and not evident at all to some people is that if you nerf mindlink, the problem won't go away. It will be replaced by something else. It's not as if it hasn't happened multiple times already.

And all the other ships that could benefit from mindlink are again left with nothing.

Could be true, but what upgrade are you thinking of that Fenn, Teroch and Manaroo are going to take that creates such a busted emergent design like Duncan's 90 point monstrosity? I can't think of any myself (not saying their isn't one though). Nerfing ML will dampen the power level of these crazy Scum Aces lists though, and I would stand up and clap about that.

2 minutes ago, sozin said:

Duncan's 90 point monstrosity?

You realise it's actually still 96 points right?

He said he'd cut everything else in the list down to 90 to make room for Mindlink at 3 points a piece.

At 90 points with no Mindlink it'd be ****.