4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Like I said: whatever. The day I start caring about what people think about me is the day I stop leaving the house.

Good for you.

13 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

In response to an OP full of ****-stirring "why are you you noobs crying just git gud" and I'm the one talking down to people?

Whatever.

Where did the OP actually said git gud? And groundhog day is actually all the whining about "the Scum" and mindlink, by always the same people. Whinig on and on, probably hoping for a mindlink nerf. Which will kill of all non-Fang small scum, an not doing a **** about the real probkem.

Let's not let SoTL's tantrum derail the topic any further than it has already, there's some good comments in here that are actually worthy of discussion.

38 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Since I'm assuming SotL won't... The first image generously assumes that Teroch isn't underpriced, the second includes Teroch as well. And it's worth noting that Ketsu doesn't even get a look-in despite being outstanding value. Data taken from the worlds top 16 lists, just counting the actual ships used, Fenn, Assaj, and all jumps in the first chart versus all other ships, Fenn Teroch, Assaj and all jumps in the second.

Further to this, it's probably worth noting that if you then add Biggs and Miranda to the list of OP stuff, it goes up to something like 80% OP ships. There are literally 2 lists (The sole imperial, and the 4-ship Rebel) that don't include at least half their pilots from this list of 9: all 4 Jumpmasters, Fenn, Teroch, Assaj, Miranda, and Biggs.

I imagine Kanan is a decent part of the remaining 20% or so as well.

5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I imagine Kanan is a decent part of the remaining 20% or so as well.

Nope, no Kanans in the worlds top 16. The remaining ships are: 1 Dash, 2 Jess, 1 Rex, 1 Braylen, 1 Whisper, 1 RAC, 1 Palob. And on that note, it's also worth noting that there was EXACTLY one Scum ship in the worlds top 16 that WASN'T a Jumpmaster, Assaj, Fenn, or Teroch.

That is to say, there were more Imperial pilots than there were non-Jump non-Fenn non-Teroch non-Assaj Scum pilots. Just for the record.

This reminds me.

In another thread in these forums where basically I was asking people to stop pretending they know how to design a game, I used the fact that none of them ever predicted mindlink would be a thing (along with a buttload of other things, but that conversation belongs in that thread).

Now the main counter argument i got was this: Mindlink wasn't OP at the time because there were no ships ready to carry it at the time it was released. Rau and Asajj came later on, so we didn't fail to predict anything.

So basically, people were already -without even realising it- making the case that mindlink is fine, it's the specific ships that carry it that are strong.

I don't even necessarily support nerfing Mindlink because I like the card and want it to remain an option we see played, but I do think it's completely facetious to pretend you've no idea why some people might think it's a problem.

7 minutes ago, haritos said:

Now the main counter argument i got was this: Mindlink wasn't OP at the time because there were no ships ready to carry it at the time it was released. Rau and Asajj came later on, so we didn't fail to predict anything.

So basically, people were already -without even realising it- making the case that mindlink is fine, it's the specific ships that carry it that are strong.

If the existence of Mindlink neans we can't have any strong Scum ships because they'll get used with Mindlink then basically you have -without even realising it- made a case that Mindlink is a problem.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope, no Kanans in the worlds top 16. The remaining ships are: 1 Dash, 2 Jess, 1 Rex, 1 Braylen, 1 Whisper, 1 RAC, 1 Palob. And on that note, it's also worth noting that there was EXACTLY one Scum ship in the worlds top 16 that WASN'T a Jumpmaster, Assaj, Fenn, or Teroch.

That is to say, there were more Imperial pilots than there were non-Jump non-Fenn non-Teroch non-Assaj Scum pilots. Just for the record.

FWIW, I DO think Mindlink is a bit OTT. Intensity really shows that; the comparison really isn't favourable to it, and I've yet to find a use on ANY scum ship where Mindlink wouldn't be Just Better, and Intensity is a very good upgrade.

But I don't think Mindlink is the cause of all the woes of the game, nor would nerfing it horribly (e.g. making it a focus action/making it unable to work on stressed ships) do anything to end the domination of the shortlist of Scum ships mentioned, which would just move on to another EPT, and leave the rest of the Scum faction languishing.

Any nerf to Mindlink needs to be carefully targetted to bring those ships to parity with everyone else, whilst not making it useless to EVERY other Scum ship with an EPT. Hence my favoured nerf suggestion: Append 'you cannot be assigned more than one focus token. You must treat all turn manoeuvres as white.'

Coupled with aggressive errata to Jumpmasters taking away the EPT from the Scout, adding 2 to all 4 of the prices, and moving the Salvaged Astromech slot off the pilot cards and making it part of the Punishing One title.

2 hours ago, haritos said:

I tried guys, I tried to believe in the latest propaganda. I failed.

Can someone explain to me why the mindlink tears wont stop flowing?

I get it, its good. Its really good. That's why you see it all over the place. Why is that bad? You also (used to?) see PTL all over the place. Because it's good. No, it's actually great. So are other upgrades and ships.

You mostly see mindlink on lists with 3 ships. Which means that basically mindlink is a card that for 3 points and 3 EPT slots total gives your list +2 focus (maybe more with manaroo), and the versatility of getting those focuses in some scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't be able to (eg. after bumping).

So that's what broke x wing? +2 focus tokens for the price of 3 points and 3 EPTs? I repeat, I'm not saying its not strong, I am saying strong doesn't mean broken.

And lets not forget what people conveniently understate: The stress. Stress is stress. You can't say it does nothing just because you only need to make 1 green maneuver with 1 ship to focus all of them.

Wow. Amazeballs.

You got 3 focuses for 3 ships.

But you couldn't do that red maneuver you wanted.

Or that barrel roll.

Or that target lock.

Because you got your ships stressed. Because mindlink. So that stress mechanic ruined all that efficiency for you.

You did however, get to focus up that ship of yours that bumped. Thats great! Thats a plus. I thought that's what upgrades are for: they do nice stuff for a price.

And people seem to ignore the fact that mindlink takes 3 EPTs. 3 EPTs! I don't need to explain what you can do with 3 EPTs. And you give that all up for +2 focuses per round.

Somebody please, help me understand the propaganda. I wanna cry with you, I feel left out

TL/DR: Mindlink costs 3 epts, 3 points (for 3 ship lists), and extra stress for the benefit of +2 focus tokens. Sounds ok. Why are you crying?

Finally. There still hope! You sir are one that can analyze a situation, instead of crying about it admirable.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't even necessarily support nerfing Mindlink because I like the card and want it to remain an option we see played, but I do think it's completely facetious to pretend you've no idea why some people might think it's a problem.

If the existence of Mindlink neans we can't have any strong Scum ships because they'll get used with Mindlink then basically you have -without even realising it- made a case that Mindlink is a problem.

No, I really don't see how +2 focus tokens a turn coming with the risk of a fully stressed fleet break x-wing. I really don't.

Again, on ships vs mindlink being the problem: Was deadeye broken? Or was it the contracted scout? Which of the two do you see being played after the deadeye nerf?

If you take away mindlink from Asajj, Rau and the J5k, what will you see more on the table? Other ships such as the starviper with mindlink? Or Asajj, Rau and J5k with other upgrades?

Here is why ML is so good:

Action efficiency (especially inconjunction with cards like K4)

Scaleability - no matter what ships come out in the future, ML will always work for them. And a Jumpmaster with unhinged astromech will virtually always give the list focus. And it doesn't even need to suffer in action economy with K4.

16 minutes ago, haritos said:

No, I really don't see how +2 focus tokens a turn coming with the risk of a fully stressed fleet break x-wing. I really don't.

Then you're CRITICALLY undervaluing focus tokens, and probably overvaluing stress when it's in the scenario of a ship with strong green moves that has focus despite the stress.

A focus token on 3 green defense dice like Fenn's is worth the ballpark of 1 damage he won't take that turn. That puts the value of a Focus token in the ballpark of a shield regen effect like R2-D2 (without being tied to green moves).

Your valuation of Focus is maybe based on the fact that it's a widely available ability and therefore must not hold much value, when in fact it's a 100% increase in defense dice performance and a 50% increase on offense dice performance.

Focus tokens are brilliant.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Then you're CRITICALLY undervaluing focus tokens.

Or people are critically undervaluing the drawback of a stressed fleet and the cost of 3 EPTs.

The reason I believe I am right and they are wrong is , for the third time, the fact that people are talking about mindlink in reference to 3 specific ships.

If im wrong and im undervaluing +2 focus tokens and the huge opportunity cost to get them, I am looking forward to your non Assaj-Rau-J5k mindlink lists.

Come on boys, prove me wrong. With actions, not propaganda.

When I want to do two actions with ptl I pay 3 points and get a stress when I actually do it.

When I want to do actions while being blocked (Dauntless title) I pay two points and get a stress when I actually do it.

That is for one ship.

Mindlink gives you the same **** for 3 ships for a combined total of 2 points less and no stress when doing it.

"But hey stress counters this." No. No, it does not.

Stress is of little consequence to the list cause you need to unstress just one ship to get actions on stressed ships anyway.
So your WORST CASE is only one action instead of constantly getting two. And lets not forget about certain crew options and astromech options that just invalidate stress further.

It boils down to this: ML has what got nerfed away from the x7 title: actions inspite of stress and bumping.

But hey that nerf was totally uncalled for, riiight?

1 minute ago, haritos said:

Come on boys, prove me wrong. With actions, not propaganda.

4 minutes ago, haritos said:

Or people are critically undervaluing the drawback of a stressed fleet and the cost of 3 EPTs.

I was mid-edit on this point. I think you're overvaluing stress tokens when they're not significantly limiting the ship's movement and not stopping them from getting focus tokens to mod their dice.

Stress is really good. Stress on a ship with good green that gets it's best action effect anyway is, like, 1/3rd of the value.

1 minute ago, Doppelganger said:

Mindlink gives you the same **** for 3 ships for a combined total of 2 points less and no stress when doing it.

"But hey stress counters this." No. No, it does not.

Stress is of little consequence to the list cause you need to unstress just one ship to get actions on stressed ships anyway.
So your WORST CASE is only one action instead of constantly getting two. And lets not forget about certain crew options and astromech options that just invalidate stress further.

You, like everyone else, just conveniently overlooked the fact that you also ate up 3 EPTs, in addition to the cost.

Furthermore, please explain to me again how unstressing one ship and getting 3 focus tokens is so amazeballs. Please refer to my original post where you DIDNT get to do any other action other than focus, and you DIDNT get to do red and/or white maneuvers. All because of the mindlink stress.

And then come back and tell me. You really think ML is broken? I am not saying its bad, im saying its perfectly fine with the stress drawback keeping it in check. Its a good card. Just like PTL. Unless you conveniently start ignoring the impact of the stress drawbacks.

Lastly, I am also looking forward to your non Assaj-Rau-J5k mindlink build.

If mindlink is so amazeballs broken, im sure you will come up with something. If not, then hey, you 're probably exaggerating things a bit right?

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Mine have numbers.

6 minutes ago, haritos said:

I am looking forward to your non Assaj-Rau-J5k mindlink lists.

So your point is we shouldn't nerf Mindlink we should nerf the Shadow Caster, Protectorate Fighter and,Jumpmaster and then make sure that we never design another scum ship with a good dial?

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Mine have numbers.

I unignored your posts literally just yesterday. That's got to be some sort of record for how quickly you got back on the list.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I was mid-edit on this point. I think you're overvaluing stress tokens when they're not significantly limiting the ship's movement and not stopping them from getting focus tokens to mod their dice.

Stress is really good. Stress on a ship with good green that gets it's best action effect anyway is, like, 1/3rd of the value.

You said it yourself: having good greens is what makes these ships able to ignore the penalties of Mindlink. Take away their green turns, they won't like being stressed anywhere near as much.

10 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Dude, posting that pie chart after Spaceinvader pointed out how wrong it is makes you look silly. I suggest you go read his reply again.

Or try to build me a mindlink list without Asajj,J5k and/or Rau and see what happens to that pie chart. I am waiting.

EDIT so i dont spam posts: Nobody said FFG shouldn't make strong scum ships. We are saying that you shouldn't blame mindlink because of those strong scum ships. Just like deadeye. There was nothing wrong with it, that's why they didnt nerf it. They just dont let you use it with a very specific strong ship anymore.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I unignored your posts literally just yesterday. That's got to be some sort of record for how quickly you got back on the list.

Ignoring opposing views is an excellent way to foster discussion. Just like Jumpmasters aren't the problem.

Wait.

2 minutes ago, haritos said:

Or try to build me a mindlink list without Asajj,J5k and/or Rau and see what happens to that pie chart. I am waiting.

I'll tell you what happens - you get a great squad that's fun to fly. All we need to do is ban Asajj, Jumpmasters and Fenn Rau like you suggest.