19 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:Or, at the very least, let's fix the one we know is broken, first (JM5K), since it's been broken through four attempts to nerf it, and then re-evaluate.
Maybe Mindlink is too good. It's possible. But we simply have no way of knowing, because all of the data also includes JM5Ks.
and after the jumpmasters, Fen Rau.
49 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:Or, at the very least, let's fix the one we know is broken, first (JM5K), since it's been broken through four attempts to nerf it, and then re-evaluate.
Maybe Mindlink is too good. It's possible. But we simply have no way of knowing, because all of the data also includes JM5Ks.
When I see your icon I always think of Frank Drebin.
Surely, with the point as clearly stated as this, they will finally understand.
1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:Or, at the very least, let's fix the one we know is broken, first (JM5K), since it's been broken through four attempts to nerf it, and then re-evaluate.
Maybe Mindlink is too good. It's possible. But we simply have no way of knowing, because all of the data also includes JM5Ks.
Not quite all of it, but mostly, yes. At the same time, I do think it creates future design problems where it will either artificially raise the cost of future scum ships with good greens, limit design space, or have a good chance of being broken on another ship.
1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:You realize it's possible for a ship and an upgrade to BOTH be too good? Mindlink's issue is NOT just the jumpmaster. It's also the protectorate and the shadowcaster. If you take away the contracted scouts EPT slot like some people want, guess what, doesn't affect manaroo in the slightest. Make the jumpmaster pilots all cost 2 more points, oh darn, now old fenaroo is "only" at 98 instead of 96. Fenn/palob/asajj from the top 4 at worlds? Doesn't even have a jumpmaster. Ditto Fenn/Asajj/Old T from the top 16.
There's no way they're going to nerf all 3 of the scum ships with green hard turns into oblivion, and honestly the shadowcaster and protectorate aren't really OP outside of mindlink lists. They're still GOOD, but probably not almost the entire meta like they currently are alongside the jumpmaster. The thing that makes mindlink so good is the ease of clearing stress on those 3 ships.
Just to add one nuance that I think our OP is missing. A card doesn't have to be broken on every ship for it to be broken. The best example of that is ACD was only a problem on two pilots, but it's also true of zuckuss (who worked well on a couple of ships -- yes one was the JMK5).
My frustration begins with maneuvering; with ML, you have three chances to get all your pilots a focus, but only have to get one clear maneuver (IE: no bump/rock/etc) to get them, whereas with PTL every maneuver counts, or someone goes without.
3 points vs. 9 points, careless/blasé piloting vs. skilled piloting.
Edited by Alekzanter5 hours ago, haritos said:So you have a ship that is performing spectacularly with a truckload of different upgrades, and an upgrade that only works on a specific trio of very specific ships.
How in the world does the conclusion you draw is that it's the upgrade that needs changing in the equation?
You are completley missing the point. Its right there in the part you quoted. Yes, the scum ships are great, probably too good as they are but getting access to a palp-similar hard to counter failsafe crutch to lean on if you screw up or get outflown makes said scum ships even more difficult to handle. The upgrade is used in almost every squad. All the good players realize its bloody awesome and use it to build the best possible squads.
Yes, jumpmasters are undercosted by 2-3 points, Fenn is probably the best pilot in the game, Shadowcasters are fantastic and even if the mindlink is changed those ships will be super strong if not handeled but at least if the mindlink would go away at least we can use blocking againt those ships and have at least a chance of getting them tokenless to increase our damage output towards them.
Like it or not, this is mindlink era. It is also jm4k era and scum era, but the OP wanted to know about the mindlink so this is my 2 cents.
12 hours ago, Ram said:You are completley missing the point. Its right there in the part you quoted. Yes, the scum ships are great, probably too good as they are but getting access to a palp-similar hard to counter failsafe crutch to lean on if you screw up or get outflown makes said scum ships even more difficult to handle. The upgrade is used in almost every squad. All the good players realize its bloody awesome and use it to build the best possible squads.
Yes, jumpmasters are undercosted by 2-3 points, Fenn is probably the best pilot in the game, Shadowcasters are fantastic and even if the mindlink is changed those ships will be super strong if not handeled but at least if the mindlink would go away at least we can use blocking againt those ships and have at least a chance of getting them tokenless to increase our damage output towards them.
Like it or not, this is mindlink era. It is also jm4k era and scum era, but the OP wanted to know about the mindlink so this is my 2 cents.
You realised you said nothing new? I can't argue with a person that is openly admitting its the ships that are awesome, then goes back to say lets fix mindlink.
All the good players realise mindlink is awesome. I said its awesome. Its not broken. THE SHIPS ARE. THE SHIPS. T H E S H I P S. You just said it yourself. Then you go talk mindlink. Why? Why don't you go on to say "so we should go nerf those ships"?
The only explanation I have left is that everyone is so terrified of losing these awesome ships, they re just using mindlink as a scapegoat. Take a step back and realise what im facing here. A person who admits that the ships are great but instead of nerfing them says nerf an upgrade that has nothing to do with the problem, since the problem will still be there if the upgrade is gone.
Edited by haritos27 minutes ago, haritos said:You realised you said nothing new? I can't argue with a person that is openly admitting its the ships that are awesome, then goes back to say lets fix mindlink.
All the good players realise mindlink is awesome. I said its awesome. Its not broken. THE SHIPS ARE. THE SHIPS. T H E S H I P S. You just said it yourself. Then you go talk mindlink. Why? Why don't you go on to say "so we should go nerf those ships"?
The only explanation I have left is that everyone is so terrified of losing these awesome ships, they re just using mindlink as a scapegoat. Take a step back and realise what im facing here. A person who admits that the ships are great but instead of nerfing them says nerf an upgrade that has nothing to do with the problem, since the problem will still be there if the upgrade is gone.
The jumpmaster is the only one of the three ships that is really a problem. The other two make mindlink a problem simply due to the access to lots of greens for clearing stress. It's not that the ships themselves are overly OP.
1 hour ago, haritos said:Yo mind linksed you saineededing new? .I can't argue wit.h a person that is openly admitting its the ships that are awesome, then goes back to say lets fix mindlink.
All the good players realise mindlink is awesome. I said its awesome. Its not broken. THE SHIPS ARE. THE SHIPS. T H E S H I P S. You just said it yourself. Then you go talk mindlink. Why? Why don't you go on to say "so we should go nerf those ships"?
The only explanation I have left is that everyone is so terrified of losing these awesome ships, they re just using mindlink as a scapegoat. Take a step back and realise what im facing here. A person who admits that the ships are great but instead of nerfing them says nerf an upgrade that has nothing to do with the problem, since the problem will still be there if the upgrade is gone.
No, what people are saying is both need to be nerfed. But as this is a mindlink thread we should talk about mindlink
21 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:Or, at the very least, let's fix the one we know is broken, first (JM5K), since it's been broken through four attempts to nerf it, and then re-evaluate.
Maybe Mindlink is too good. It's possible. But we simply have no way of knowing, because all of the data also includes JM5Ks.
Listen to the good doctor. He may smoke, he may be cranky, but he talks sense.
Ok where is mind link?? Or should I say which ship does in come in as an upgrade????
6 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:Ok where is mind link?? Or should I say which ship does in come in as an upgrade????
Jumpmaster
Otherwise know as punishing one??? Thanks for the info...
18 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:Jumpmaster
17 hours ago, haritos said:You realised you said nothing new? I can't argue with a person that is openly admitting its the ships that are awesome, then goes back to say lets fix mindlink.
All the good players realise mindlink is awesome. I said its awesome. Its not broken. THE SHIPS ARE. THE SHIPS. T H E S H I P S. You just said it yourself. Then you go talk mindlink. Why? Why don't you go on to say "so we should go nerf those ships"?
The only explanation I have left is that everyone is so terrified of losing these awesome ships, they re just using mindlink as a scapegoat. Take a step back and realise what im facing here. A person who admits that the ships are great but instead of nerfing them says nerf an upgrade that has nothing to do with the problem, since the problem will still be there if the upgrade is gone.
Yeah... Are you even understanding that I am not in any way saying "leave the ships alone!"? Do you understand the point that all these great ships are being equipped with the same EPT? Why do you think that is? Because those ships are so awesome that they are played with a weaker upgrade?
If you are uncapable of understanding that a problem may consist of more then one part there is very little I can do. 75% of the high ranked squads play the mindlink.
And your conclution like most of your reasoning is wrong. I dont care about any specific ships or faction. I want a ballaned and diverse playfield with multiple strong strategies.
Edited by Ram2 hours ago, Ram said:75% of the high ranked squads play the mindlink.
That's not true though. The day two field of worlds was ~30% Mindlink broadly.
Looking at only the elimination cut isn't really fair analysis, as anyone at the margins (2-losses) could have potentially made it.
Doesn't this discussion parallel the cries -albeit a WHOLE lot less- that Commonwealth Defenders were OP ?
i think so.....
So what to fix????
The Defender? or the Palpatine Crew Motification?
Answer from FFG? BOTH
Right or wrong we know what they thought. They just don't look at Scum with the same critical eye, or follow tourney winners squads, or understand the game meta, or seemingly give a flip about balance? I don't know.....me and my buddies are starting to loose real interest in tournaments.
Edited by clanofwolves5 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:That's not true though. The day two field of worlds was ~30% Mindlink broadly.
Looking at only the elimination cut isn't really fair analysis, as anyone at the margins (2-losses) could have potentially made it.
Yes, you are right. I mixed in some statisics I gathered from tournaments after the great nerf and also generalized too much.
4 hours ago, Ram said:Yes, you are right. I mixed in some statisics I gathered from tournaments after the great nerf and also generalized too much.
I wasn't trying to nit-pick, but more so highlight not everything is Mindlink, especially since so the forums (broadly) are acting as if it's all Mindlink lists out there, and there are truly other competitive lists out there.
I feel really disheartened that so many are disheartened.
For instance, I'm really unsure why Gerry's fair ship rebel (jess, Rex, Biggs, and braylen stress bot) hasn't been more popular - it's an incredibly good and powerful list.
6 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:I wasn't trying to nit-pick, but more so highlight not everything is Mindlink, especially since so the forums (broadly) are acting as if it's all Mindlink lists out there, and there are truly other competitive lists out there.
I feel really disheartened that so many are disheartened.
For instance, I'm really unsure why Gerry's fair ship rebel (jess, Rex, Biggs, and braylen stress bot) hasn't been more popular - it's an incredibly good and powerful list.
Dengar/Tel is just about the only high level competitive scum list right now not using mindlink.
I haven't flown Gerry's list, but I"ve flown a similar one (jess/rex/biggs/thane) that I've really enjoyed. No control liket eh stress braylen, but more offense with thane (abilty for extra actions + a torpedo)
6 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:I wasn't trying to nit-pick, but more so highlight not everything is Mindlink, especially since so the forums (broadly) are acting as if it's all Mindlink lists out there, and there are truly other competitive lists out there.
I feel really disheartened that so many are disheartened.
For instance, I'm really unsure why Gerry's fair ship rebel (jess, Rex, Biggs, and braylen stress bot) hasn't been more popular - it's an incredibly good and powerful list.
I totally agree that there are many great lists out there. Even with nerfs, defenders are great. SFs are great. K-wings (generic and Mirandas), Dash, Norra. Corran, ... TLT Y:s. All really good. There are also very interesting strategies with bombs, ordnance and some straight up gunning.
In general, I feel that we are one trim on the hedge away from having a great playfield. Yes, if we do something to handle Mindlink scum superships, something else will rise to the top. Its the nature of things. But we need something similar to Rock-Paper-Scissors. Its real hard to find the Rock for the Mindlink Superships Scissors. The game will get better once something is done about it.
6 hours ago, Ram said:I totally agree that there are many great lists out there. Even with nerfs, defenders are great. SFs are great. K-wings (generic and Mirandas), Dash, Norra. Corran, ... TLT Y:s. All really good. There are also very interesting strategies with bombs, ordnance and some straight up gunning.
In general, I feel that we are one trim on the hedge away from having a great playfield. Yes, if we do something to handle Mindlink scum superships, something else will rise to the top. Its the nature of things. But we need something similar to Rock-Paper-Scissors. Its real hard to find the Rock for the Mindlink Superships Scissors. The game will get better once something is done about it.
Again, let me suggest Gerry's world list:
jess Pavarotti with pattern, hero bot, adaptability, integrated
Captain Rex (naked)
Biggs with r4d6 and integrated
Braylen with r3a2, title, gunner.
It is exceedingly good at being Mindlink, and everyone seems to be ignoring it (to mindlinks benefit).
Also, people keep referring to paper, rock, scissors, but I don't think people really want to have that. No one wants a game where you show up and go 'welp! I guess I lose because my opponent bright rock! That sucks!' Or even 'I already won - she brought paper! Yay!'
Also, a store championship in So Cal just had a lambda with Huxley and three strikers beat a RAC + Ryad in the finals.
As you said, there really ARE other good lists out there, it just feels that no one wants to actually try flying them...
Edited by Tlfj200Played against two Mindlink lists on Saturday. Lost against Triple Jumpmasters, won against Fenn, Teroch and a Scout.
Honestly, the sharing around of focus tokens wasn't a big problem, the huge amount of highly-mobile health on the table with the 3 x JM5K list was (well, that and the fact it was being piloted by Scott Reed
)
55 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Played against two Mindlink lists on Saturday. Lost against Triple Jumpmasters, won against Fenn, Teroch and a Scout.
Honestly, the sharing around of focus tokens wasn't a big problem, the huge amount of highly-mobile health on the table with the 3 x JM5K list was (well, that and the fact it was being piloted by Scott Reed
I played last weekend with Dengar in tournament and paid 58p for him, for me ship with 9HP and with that cost, almost 2/3 squad points but excellent ability to drop some serious damage is in balanced. It should be worth two aces pretty much. I agree that the Contract Scouts are cheap what you get, excellent dial and excellent upgrade slots is way too cheap what you get.
I hope this won't offend people and cause other personal insults!
17 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:Again, let me suggest Gerry's world list:
jess Pavarotti with pattern, hero bot, adaptability, integrated
Captain Rex (naked)
Biggs with r4d6 and integrated
Braylen with r3a2, title, gunner.
It is exceedingly good at being Mindlink, and everyone seems to be ignoring it (to mindlinks benefit).
Also, people keep referring to paper, rock, scissors, but I don't think people really want to have that. No one wants a game where you show up and go 'welp! I guess I lose because my opponent bright rock! That sucks!' Or even 'I already won - she brought paper! Yay!'
Also, a store championship in So Cal just had a lambda with Huxley and three strikers beat a RAC + Ryad in the finals.
As you said, there really ARE other good lists out there, it just feels that no one wants to actually try flying them...
Yes, Gerrys list is very good, probably the most anti-mindlink I have ever seen. That or Nands list, at least with him flying it.
WRT Rock-Paper-Scissors, at least when I use the term I imagine stronger and weaker matchups not auto-wins/losses Also, when I say that Mindlink superscum (sort of) breaks the meta, its not that it is unbeatable in single matchups, it is simply because it is in general stronger then all other squads and that makes the meta a bit boring. It is sort of the default analysis that Scum is great and that the mindlink is the EPT of choice and in general, if you want to play the best list, that is the right analysis.
And I agree, the meta is opening up a bit already. In the swede champs played this weekend, the winner was totally awesome. Stresshog, 2x Plasma Torp/Autoblaster turret Gold Y-wings and 2x z95s with Tracers! Y-wings will be the new Torp boats!
On 25/05/2017 at 11:13 AM, haritos said:I tried guys, I tried to believe in the latest propaganda. I failed.
Can someone explain to me why the mindlink tears wont stop flowing?
I get it, its good. Its really good. That's why you see it all over the place. Why is that bad? You also (used to?) see PTL all over the place. Because it's good. No, it's actually great. So are other upgrades and ships.
You mostly see mindlink on lists with 3 ships. Which means that basically mindlink is a card that for 3 points and 3 EPT slots total gives your list +2 focus (maybe more with manaroo), and the versatility of getting those focuses in some scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't be able to (eg. after bumping).
So that's what broke x wing? +2 focus tokens for the price of 3 points and 3 EPTs? I repeat, I'm not saying its not strong, I am saying strong doesn't mean broken.
And lets not forget what people conveniently understate: The stress. Stress is stress. You can't say it does nothing just because you only need to make 1 green maneuver with 1 ship to focus all of them.
Wow. Amazeballs.
You got 3 focuses for 3 ships.
But you couldn't do that red maneuver you wanted.
Or that barrel roll.
Or that target lock.
Because you got your ships stressed. Because mindlink. So that stress mechanic ruined all that efficiency for you.
You did however, get to focus up that ship of yours that bumped. Thats great! Thats a plus. I thought that's what upgrades are for: they do nice stuff for a price.
And people seem to ignore the fact that mindlink takes 3 EPTs. 3 EPTs! I don't need to explain what you can do with 3 EPTs. And you give that all up for +2 focuses per round.
Somebody please, help me understand the propaganda. I wanna cry with you, I feel left out
TL/DR: Mindlink costs 3 epts, 3 points (for 3 ship lists), and extra stress for the benefit of +2 focus tokens. Sounds ok. Why are you crying?
At least someone with common sense!.
Before the lancer or the Protectorate, you could run lists of 3 Black Sun Ace with Palob and nobody said that was op.
The main problem is that now Scum has the Jumpmaster (and maybe Lancer) undercosted and overcosted ships as Viper and maybe Khiraxz. Not attani.
Attani still lets play variability.
As scum player I'd prefer a nerf to Fenn and J5K than a nerf to Attani.
On 2017-5-26 at 6:07 PM, VanderLegion said:Sure, it took the top 3 scum ships coming along to make mindlink a monster. But they aren't going to take away the green hard turns from all 3 (or any of the 3), and even increasing the cost of the jumpmaster isn't going to make mindlink any less effective. The only way to make mindlink not be almost the only EPT seen for scum (outside of 2 ship lists) is to nerf mindlink itself.
I understand that. My point was about the psychological aspect in how people are looking at the card.