Asajj Palob Fenn mindlink list went 7-0 before the top cut at Worlds - he got defeated by the Worlds winner at the top 8 I think? Likely a fatigue related mistake (playing his Fenn as if he had initiative but he didnt, so Fenn got side-stepped with ease and deleted by Dengar + Tel)

When played without mistakes or without critical mistakes, the list is way too efficient and covers way too many things - its got the stress bot effect with asajj, 180 degree arc on a very tanky ship (Latts synergy), a TLT ship that also steals a token and the #1 ace right now, of all time really, no better ace than Fenn since Xwing Minis started.

46 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well it's not surprising people put Mindlink on Scum's best ships. But this doesn't mean Mindlink itself isn't part of the problem. As evidence, I believe that if Mindlink was not "Scum Only" we'd see it dominating Imperial builds and Rebel builds as well. Alternatively, ban the Jumpmasters and the Lancers and the Protectorates, and I'm sure you'd see Mindlinked G1-As and Mindlinked Aggressors and other Mindlinked Scum ships rise to the top.

Wrong. Band jumpmasters, lancers and protectorates and you'll see scum disappear completely from the meta. Possibly some brobots still.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Wrong. Band jumpmasters, lancers and protectorates and you'll see scum disappear completely from the meta. Possibly some brobots still.

I don't think it would be quite that bad, but I do think it would be a sharp decline, most likely leading to Rebels taking over as the dominant faction. In any case, bad decision to simply ban those ships.

As always, the mindlink-is-OP camp conveniently chooses to ignore what is being hammered again and again and again and again: all your references to mindlink concern a list that has some very specific ships, one of which -the J5k- is universally accepted to be as the most broken thing ever to appear in x-wing.

I 'll keep repeating it til someone has the balls to address this: Why dont people fly other ships with mindlink since its so crazy strong? Why dont you try flying a mindlink list against Asajj-Rau-J5k without mindlink and see how terrible you do.

Are you afraid of being proven wrong? You 'll be proven wrong anyway when mindlink is nerfed, something else replaces it, and those same ships still dominate at the expense of other Scum ships. Jesus, it happened before: where is the almighty supermassive broken Zuckuss? Where is Deadeye? When did they ever feel broken except when on the J5k?

Im making a list of my "I told you so targets"

I still have to fight against nerfing either one, mindlink, JM5K's and even less Asajj! I think the biggest mistake that FFG has ever made was giving up for Jeffers, it gave false hope that we could make difference and now so many people here in the forum are holding to that for whatever reason and it really is poisoning this forum!!!

The problem is that people are copying same lists over and over again and that really makes false statistics what is really good and what not. Why don't we have topics about Mindlink, JM5K and Asajj counters, just bit**ing how broken the game is. Guys seriously get the sh**t together and make something new counters for the problems with existing tools for Rebels, Empire and Scum factions, please!

Asajj it self seems good counter against mindlink, it is tanky and she can spill that stress all over the squad. Counter against Asajj might be some attacks that skip her evades, maybe Autoblaster Turret/Cannon, Homing missiles or even snap shot that executes before actions..

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I don't think it would be quite that bad, but I do think it would be a sharp decline, most likely leading to Rebels taking over as the dominant faction. In any case, bad decision to simply ban those ships.

Before wave 8, the only scum ships that saw any common use were brobots and quad tlt. And banning those 3 ships would basically put us back there. I mean, we'd have the G1A and quadjumper, but how many G1As have you seen? And if you think the only reason we don't see them right now is because of said 3 ships, how often do you see b-wings, which are basically the same thing?

3 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

I still have to fight against nerfing either one, mindlink, JM5K's and even less Asajj! I think the biggest mistake that FFG has ever made was giving up for Jeffers, it gave false hope that we could make difference and now so many people here in the forum are holding to that for whatever reason and it really is poisoning this forum!!!

The problem is that people are copying same lists over and over again and that really makes false statistics what is really good and what not. Why don't we have topics about Mindlink, JM5K and Asajj counters, just bit**ing how broken the game is. Guys seriously get the sh**t together and make something new counters for the problems with existing tools for Rebels, Empire and Scum factions, please!

Asajj it self seems good counter against mindlink, it is tanky and she can spill that stress all over the squad. Counter against Asajj might be some attacks that skip her evades, maybe Autoblaster Turret/Cannon, Homing missiles or even snap shot that executes before actions..

If asajj herself was a good ocunter to mindlink, there'd probably be a lot less mindlink around since she's in a lot fo the lists using it. Stressing a single ship one time per round isn't enough to more than inconvenience mindlink. And given the fact that she USES mindlink...that's not likely to help get it out of the meta. And Homing Missile is less useful than elsehwere since it doesn't help against latts, just if she has an evade token.

9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

If asajj herself was a good ocunter to mindlink, there'd probably be a lot less mindlink around since she's in a lot fo the lists using it. Stressing a single ship one time per round isn't enough to more than inconvenience mindlink. And given the fact that she USES mindlink...that's not likely to help get it out of the meta. And Homing Missile is less useful than elsehwere since it doesn't help against latts, just if she has an evade token.

Well that is good step to reason what works and what not! But have you tried Asajj against mindlink lists?

Sorry I'm just so tired and disappointed to people here in the forum just doing loops over and over again without giving something new for return with the tools we have already! It feels like sucking the life out from the forum, this should be creative place rather than just endless cycle of complains!

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well it's not surprising people put Mindlink on Scum's best ships. But this doesn't mean Mindlink itself isn't part of the problem. As evidence, I believe that if Mindlink was not "Scum Only" we'd see it dominating Imperial builds and Rebel builds as well. Alternatively, ban the Jumpmasters and the Lancers and the Protectorates, and I'm sure you'd see Mindlinked G1-As and Mindlinked Aggressors and other Mindlinked Scum ships rise to the top.

It's both, actually, You're right that that post was a touch oversimplified.

.

34 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

I still have to fight against nerfing either one, mindlink, JM5K's and even less Asajj! I think the biggest mistake that FFG has ever made was giving up for Jeffers, it gave false hope that we could make difference and now so many people here in the forum are holding to that for whatever reason and it really is poisoning this forum!!!

The problem is that people are copying same lists over and over again and that really makes false statistics what is really good and what not. Why don't we have topics about Mindlink, JM5K and Asajj counters, just bit**ing how broken the game is. Guys seriously get the sh**t together and make something new counters for the problems with existing tools for Rebels, Empire and Scum factions, please!

Asajj it self seems good counter against mindlink, it is tanky and she can spill that stress all over the squad. Counter against Asajj might be some attacks that skip her evades, maybe Autoblaster Turret/Cannon, Homing missiles or even snap shot that executes before actions..

Good Lord, the arrogance of this one.

Who the hell do you think you are, that you alone are the only X-wing player on the planet to try to counter the OP Scum ships and cards from recent waves? The best X-wing players on the planet have been trying for more than a year - and it hasn't worked. The only real answer has been to play it yourself so as to at least compete from an even footing. One glance at tournament results from Worlds, System Opens and even Regionals would tell you that.

But hey, if you're so sure the rest of the player base are idiots and there's an easy counter list out there, by all means put your money where your mouth is and go find it. I'll wait.

11 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

Well that is good step to reason what works and what not! But have you tried Asajj against mindlink lists?

Sorry I'm just so tired and disappointed to people here in the forum just doing loops over and over again without giving something new for return with the tools we have already! It feels like sucking the life out from the forum, this should be creative place rather than just endless cycle of complains!

Considering how long paratanni was the top meta squad, and asajj is still in a lot of the mindlink lists, she's been tried against mindlink plenty of times. And yes, I've flown her against mindlink myself.

8 minutes ago, haritos said:

As always, the mindlink-is-OP camp conveniently chooses to ignore what is being hammered again and again and again and again: all your references to mindlink concern a list that has some very specific ships, one of which -the J5k- is universally accepted to be as the most broken thing ever to appear in x-wing.

We don't choose to ignore anything. Compare the PTL versions of Fenn and Teroch with the Inquisitor (with prockets) and Carnor (with hull upgrade). Seriously, do it. They are pretty much in the same league. This leads me to believe it's not that the protectorate chassis is better (for starters, it doesn't have the evade action, which TIE/v1 grants for free), but that mindlink is much more efficient than PTL, which explains why we don't see many imperial aces and plenty of scum ones.

Yes, the JumpMasters are still overpowered, but I don't think they were the heart of the SIX lists in the Worlds' top 16 with both Fenn AND Teroch, nor the one with Palob/Assaj/Fenn.

11 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Good Lord, the arrogance of this one.

Who the hell do you think you are, that you alone are the only X-wing player on the planet to try to counter the OP Scum ships and cards from recent waves? The best X-wing players on the planet have been trying for more than a year - and it hasn't worked. The only real answer has been to play it yourself so as to at least compete from an even footing. One glance at tournament results from Worlds, System Opens and even Regionals would tell you that.

But hey, if you're so sure the rest of the player base are idiots and there's an easy counter list out there, by all means put your money where your mouth is and go find it. I'll wait.

This is a little salty, but this is true as far as my efforts and all the friends that I know attempting to de-throne Scum with other lists. Tried everything, I think. There seems to be no counter to JK5's that I and my friends have found in other factions; except perhaps pre-nerf Defender squads who gave them a great fight most games and might have a 50/50. I fly a lot of Rebels (just a bit of 411 if you think by my pic otherwise) and I'm no expert at Miranda, and Poe with wingmates, but I can't find a solid one there either. Frustration sets in and you just realize the old adage is true, "if you CAN'T beat 'em, use their own s*** against 'em."

It's very possible for both Mind link and the JM5K to be too strong. Mind link less so obviously.

3 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Good Lord, the arrogance of this one.

Who the hell do you think you are, that you alone are the only X-wing player on the planet to try to counter the OP Scum ships and cards from recent waves? The best X-wing players on the planet have been trying for more than a year - and it hasn't worked. The only real answer has been to play it yourself so as to at least compete from an even footing. One glance at tournament results from Worlds, System Opens and even Regionals would tell you that.

But hey, if you're so sure the rest of the player base are idiots and there's an easy counter list out there, by all means put your money where your mouth is and go find it. I'll wait.

Dude you kinda missed the point there and just bluntly offended me.. Sad.. I recommend you to read it again and hold your offenses out of the forum. Instead of trying to provoke some serious constructive thinking you fell in to the same "bit**ing" that many people do.

I'm trying to break up the loop here that keeps people out from actually doing some good new squads. Never said anything about me being on top of the problems, but at least I'm trying to change the course of things, the key is to explore options with the upgrades we already have. Copying same lists over and over again is very unproductive and there is possibility that there is still many excellent options hidden from us.

If you want to give up by copying same lists, then you are not in a good place to argue with me or with the "issues"..

16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Considering how long paratanni was the top meta squad, and asajj is still in a lot of the mindlink lists, she's been tried against mindlink plenty of times. And yes, I've flown her against mindlink myself.

Mindlink was kinda black sheep at the moment when it came out, it took long time for people to make work. Any insights that might be good counters against mindlink or other issues?

6 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

Mindlink was kinda black sheep at the moment when it came out, it took long time for people to make work. Any insights that might be good counters against mindlink or other issues?

Mindlink took a while to make work because it was the advent of the protectorate and shadowcaster in combination with the jumpmaster that escalated it to being so good.

13 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This is a little salty, but this is true as far as my efforts and all the friends that I know attempting to de-throne Scum with other lists. Tried everything, I think. There seems to be no counter to JK5's that I and my friends have found in other factions; except perhaps pre-nerf Defender squads who gave them a great fight most games and might have a 50/50. I fly a lot of Rebels (just a bit of 411 if you think by my pic otherwise) and I'm no expert at Miranda, and Poe with wingmates, but I can't find a solid one there either. Frustration sets in and you just realize the old adage is true, "if you CAN'T beat 'em, use their own s*** against 'em."

I hope people would get to try things and share results with others here. Together we could solve some of the issues. If we keep doing nerf ideas with tools that we don't have, we are not doing anything! Till there is nerf one day the problems are staying same unless there is way with cards we already have?

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Before wave 8, the only scum ships that saw any common use were brobots and quad tlt. And banning those 3 ships would basically put us back there. I mean, we'd have the G1A and quadjumper, but how many G1As have you seen? And if you think the only reason we don't see them right now is because of said 3 ships, how often do you see b-wings, which are basically the same thing?

But there are a couple other options to try. YV-666 has a decent following, there is some hope for the updated Scyks, Scum HWKs have awesome pilot abilities, and the two options you mentioned. Your analysis of the G1A sounds right, though I don't have much experience with the ship to fully understand it.

I don't mean to imply that the Scum would not be adversely affect by the ban. But I do think they have some extra tricks to try afterwards. Even with my rather dire interpretation of the Empire's position, I do not consider them completely out of the meta. And I don't think even the loss of their three golden ships would push the Scum below the Imps current position.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But there are a couple other options to try. YV-666 has a decent following, there is some hope for the updated Scyks, Scum HWKs have awesome pilot abilities, and the two options you mentioned. Your analysis of the G1A sounds right, though I don't have much experience with the ship to fully understand it.

I don't mean to imply that the Scum would not be adversely affect by the ban. But I do think they have some extra tricks to try afterwards. Even with my rather dire interpretation of the Empire's position, I do not consider them completely out of the meta. And I don't think even the loss of their three golden ships would push the Scum below the Imps current position.

The YV-666 was around before the jumpmaster/protectorate/shadowcaster and didnt' see much use (though I did win a small store championship with one). It didn't really start to see use until the party bus build in wave 8, which also isn't doable in the same way anymore. We'll see how the updated scyks do. Hwks were around before as well. I don't think the G1A or quadjumper probably would be enough to make scum as competitive. I actually disagree and think scum would definitely be below imperials without those 3 ships.

Now if they get around to giving us scum aces and make the kihraxz and starviper flyable, that might be a different story...

I could only get thru the first two pages of this rubbish before I gave up and got sick of the personal insults being thrown around.

I will say I see a lot of hypocrisy with people not wanting to nerf mindlink while also saying X/7 title nerf was necessary. Nearly every pro X/7 nerf fan said they liked it because you shouldn't get rewarded with actions if you bump, overlap obstacles, or are stressed....

Do I really need to finish this post?

(Oh, BTW let's throw K4 with mindlink because, yea...no actions when stressed, overlap obstacles, or bump right? Let's forget that made up rule when it comes to your Scum stuff).

Seriously, do people not realize how hypocritical they are with this crap?

12 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The YV-666 was around before the jumpmaster/protectorate/shadowcaster and didnt' see much use (though I did win a small store championship with one). It didn't really start to see use until the party bus build in wave 8, which also isn't doable in the same way anymore. We'll see how the updated scyks do. Hwks were around before as well. I don't think the G1A or quadjumper probably would be enough to make scum as competitive. I actually disagree and think scum would definitely be below imperials without those 3 ships.

Now if they get around to giving us scum aces and make the kihraxz and starviper flyable, that might be a different story...

Eh, to each his own.

12 minutes ago, Waaaaaampa said:

I could only get thru the first two pages of this rubbish before I gave up and got sick of the personal insults being thrown around.

I will say I see a lot of hypocrisy with people not wanting to nerf mindlink while also saying X/7 title nerf was necessary. Nearly every pro X/7 nerf fan said they liked it because you shouldn't get rewarded with actions if you bump, overlap obstacles, or are stressed....

Do I really need to finish this post?

(Oh, BTW let's throw K4 with mindlink because, yea...no actions when stressed, overlap obstacles, or bump right? Let's forget that made up rule when it comes to your Scum stuff).

Seriously, do people not realize how hypocritical they are with this crap?

I'm all for them nerfing mindlink. Just a question of a way to nerf it without making it unusable. I actually like adding a line "Treat all turn maneuvers as white maneuvers". That solves the problem of jumpmasters/protectorates/shadowcasters green turns that are a big part of why mindlink is so good. As a side effect, it lets the y-wing have white 3-hards and the bossk have white 2-hards.

Edit: If mindlink didn't pass stress, just focus tokens, I'd be all for changing it so it didn't work when stressed. But as long as it also passes stress, that takes it from too good to out of hte meta completely

44 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Mindlink took a while to make work because it was the advent of the protectorate and shadowcaster in combination with the jumpmaster that escalated it to being so good.

I still think Shadow Caster wasn't that good, because I have seen Teroch and Fenn doing better with Manaroo.

Gotta say it again, but Palob also has excellent ability against mindlink lists, they will do focus nevertheless his taking one or not. Against other lists it has the power to change the style of play. One of my favorite ships too!