1 hour ago, nigeltastic said:

It always surprises me that everyone seems to miss the actual problem with jumpmasters. It's not mindlink or their ept slot or their dial or anything other than the double torpedo slots. Remove their ordnance and the jumpmaster is a fine ship with strong but not oppressive stats or abilities. They're simply the best alpha striker in the game and the fact that they can at any point threaten 4/4 hits range 2-3 is why they are such a bastard to deal with. If they're just good ships restricted to their primaries they're not nearly as scary.

I've always felt that it was the double torp slots that pushed it over the edge. I don't think the PS3 generic should have had an EPT simply because its a cheap PS3 ship.

The stress penalty on mindlink just isn't a big deal enough drawback. Add an additional penalty. When a ship with mindlink is destroyed, all other ships in the mindlink take a facedown damage card. That's a pretty harsh penalty, and it further weakens mindlink lists endgames. Mindlink is really strong early, but weakens as ships die off. Being able to kill Old T and get a free damage on Fenn makes for an easier time beating Fenn late game, for example.

Here is a little comparison that might shed some light on the matter:

The Inquisitor + TIE/v1 + PTL + AT + Prockets = 34 points.

Fenn Rau + CDP + PTL + AT = 34 points.

• Inquisitor advantages: free evade when taking a target lock (Fenn can't evade at all), more firepower at range 3 (including shutting down AT).
• Fenn advantages: +1 PS, free evades and more agility and firepower at range 1 (though the Inquisitor can make a 5 dice attack once).

Fenn is clearly better at range 1, while the Inquisitor is clearly better at range 2-3. Seems pretty balanced to me. Another comparison:

Carnor Jax + RGT + PTL + AT + Hull Upgrade = 34 points.

Old Teroch + CDP + PTL + AT = 32 points.

• Carnor advantages: +1 PS, evade action, clearly better pilot ability.
• Teroch advantages: target lock action, free evades at range 1.

Again, it looks pretty balanced to me (maybe 1 point off).

NOTE: These builds have the same HP regarding bombs.

So, why don't we see as much Inquisitor/Carnor as Fenn/Teroch in the current meta? I suspect it might have something to do with mindlink.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I've been theorizing about that and the conclusion I and some of my friends came to was that Fel's ability would act as further resistance to stress control. You probably won't be able to use it as heavily as the PTL version, but the idea of the person stressing your list is also the one responsible for supplying you team with focus tokens has a certain sadistic charm.

This is exactly what happened in one game, it became the death nail to the stresshog as she couldn't shoot Fel without unintentionally giving everyone in my list a focus token......lovely sadistic irony.

24 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This is exactly what happened in one game, it became the death nail to the stresshog as she couldn't shoot Fel without unintentionally giving everyone in my list a focus token......lovely sadistic irony.

Heck, any of the team. One gets stressed, they all get stressed. Fel's ability triggers when he gets the token, and now they're all focused.

7 hours ago, haritos said:

I tried guys, I tried to believe in the latest propaganda. I failed.

Can someone explain to me why the mindlink tears wont stop flowing?

I get it, its good. Its really good. That's why you see it all over the place. Why is that bad? You also (used to?) see PTL all over the place. Because it's good. No, it's actually great. So are other upgrades and ships.

You mostly see mindlink on lists with 3 ships. Which means that basically mindlink is a card that for 3 points and 3 EPT slots total gives your list +2 focus (maybe more with manaroo), and the versatility of getting those focuses in some scenarios where you otherwise wouldn't be able to (eg. after bumping).

So that's what broke x wing? +2 focus tokens for the price of 3 points and 3 EPTs? I repeat, I'm not saying its not strong, I am saying strong doesn't mean broken.

And lets not forget what people conveniently understate: The stress. Stress is stress. You can't say it does nothing just because you only need to make 1 green maneuver with 1 ship to focus all of them.

Wow. Amazeballs.

You got 3 focuses for 3 ships.

But you couldn't do that red maneuver you wanted.

Or that barrel roll.

Or that target lock.

Because you got your ships stressed. Because mindlink. So that stress mechanic ruined all that efficiency for you.

You did however, get to focus up that ship of yours that bumped. Thats great! Thats a plus. I thought that's what upgrades are for: they do nice stuff for a price.

And people seem to ignore the fact that mindlink takes 3 EPTs. 3 EPTs! I don't need to explain what you can do with 3 EPTs. And you give that all up for +2 focuses per round.

Somebody please, help me understand the propaganda. I wanna cry with you, I feel left out

TL/DR: Mindlink costs 3 epts, 3 points (for 3 ship lists), and extra stress for the benefit of +2 focus tokens. Sounds ok. Why are you crying?

Sing it brother! Hell yes.

Ptl in every list. Fine.

mindlink in most lists from one faction...XWING BE BROKE, NERF!!!

I think another serious problem with mindlink is the fact that it doesn't care about bad flying, or bumping or anything.

I got my *** handed to me (granted I was playing some jank) by a paratanni player who proceeded to fly over EVERY. SINGLE. ROCK.

Yeah, you pay 3 EPT slots, but should you happen to have at least 1 ship that managed to avoid rocks, or bumping, all of your ships get a focus.

Your opponent blocked Fenn Rau in order to deny him the focus? Too bad, because he doesn't care about that. If that was a problem for X7, it has to be a problem here as well.

4 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

I think another serious problem with mindlink is the fact that it doesn't care about bad flying, or bumping or anything.

I got my *** handed to me (granted I was playing some jank) by a paratanni player who proceeded to fly over EVERY. SINGLE. ROCK.

Yeah, you pay 3 EPT slots, but should you happen to have at least 1 ship that managed to avoid rocks, or bumping, all of your ships get a focus.

Your opponent blocked Fenn Rau in order to deny him the focus? Too bad, because he doesn't care about that. If that was a problem for X7, it has to be a problem here as well.

That is why I suggested it becomes a free focus action instead of just getting a free focus token.

****, I forgot to add that mindlink's efficiency goes down each time a ship dies. Which is pretty significant.

From the moment you lose even 1 ship you are now playing with a +1 focus per round. X WING BROKE.

So many drawbacks i cant keep track of them

2 minutes ago, haritos said:

****, I forgot to add that mindlink's efficiency goes down each time a ship dies. Which is pretty significant.

From the moment you lose even 1 ship you are now playing with a +1 focus per round. X WING BROKE.

So many drawbacks i cant keep track of them

Losing a ship is actually a pretty big deal for 3-ship mindlink.

Separate from overall balance, it's a large shift in in-game power when it happens.

6 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Oh, ok. So why is it relevant if Mindlink is fine on ships that nobody uses it on?

It's relevant because if Ship J is broken with Upgrade X, Upgrade Y, Upgrade Z, and Upgrade M, but Upgrade M is not broken on Ships P, Q, R, S, and T, then ...

... the problem is logically more likely to be Ship J, not Upgrade M.

That's not to say that Upgrade M is definitely not problematic. It's just that Ship J is definitely problematic, and when discussing a problem involving both Ship J and Upgrade M, it's more logical to address Ship J first, and then re-evaluate.

Worlds has shown me:

Mindlink should could 2 pts.

And Jumps should be 3 points higher in cost. As was stated before above, the Initiative bids show this too.

9 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm going with just stupid.

Mind Link isn't the problem, the Jumpmaster is.

Imagine you took Soontir, made him bump-proof, gave him infinite prockets, and also made him a beast in a range 1 joust (oops, I ended up in too many arcs? Lemme just boost into range 1!). That's Mindlinked Fenn Rau.

Mindlink's biggest drawback is how much its efficiency goes down as soon as ships start dying. Current Mindlink lists don't have that problem because they're just so good at surviving. Fenn, Asajj, Jumpmasters: all of these ships are able to survive just long enough to make the Mindlink last enough time to make it worth it. Make Mindlink small ship only and suddenly Fenn loses access to the health pool of large base ships sustaining the Mindlink. Small ship Mindlink sees far more fatalities than current competitive Mindlink lists.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Heck, any of the team. One gets stressed, they all get stressed. Fel's ability triggers when he gets the token, and now they're all focused.

Now you see better than those who say Push is better than Link with the Ace, it just isn't; guess few look outside the box at things; even look at the impossible; it tells the real story. Plus the 6 points you could save in your crew goes nicely elsewhere. How Attani could be factionless, like Sabine and Advanced Slam.

4 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

I'm going with just stupid.

Mind Link isn't the problem, the Jumpmaster is.

2 hours ago, CRCL said:

Mindlink can pretty easily be fixed, and you don't even really need to target the card itself (which is fine IMO). The problem is that there are two really good ships that can act as mindlink batteries for a squad and mostly ignore it's downside via green hard turns and turrets/mobile arcs (Jumpmaster and Shadowcaster). By targeting these ships rather than the upgrade you can fix the issue:

1) Asajj: At the start of the Combat phase, you may choose a ship at Range 1-2. If it is inside your mobile firing arc, assign 1 stress token to it, then receive a stress token.

People would just turn to Ketsu. Shes almost as effective and in some situation shes even better. The problem comes from the ship, not the pilot. That dial is just too good for all the stats/actions/upgrades/cost of the ship.

21 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Why not both?

The Jumpmaster has proved itself to be OP in pretty much every incarnation it's appeared in since it was released. Whether it was multiple generics with Deadeye, multiple generics with Mindlink, or any combination of Manaroo, Dengar and now Tel Trevura with a wide range of upgrades, it's always been at the top of the competitive meta.

Mindlink has been at the top of the competitive meta, but only in combination with the Jumpmaster.

If we were seeing Mindlink lists that didn't feature the Jumpmaster regularly dominating the competitive scene, maybe there'd be a valid argument for a Mindlink nerf. After all, it can potentially enhance the likes of Firespray, HWK, Kihraxz, StarViper, Scyk and IG-2000 builds - why should these ships lose the utility Mindlink can provide when it's the JM5K that's causing the problems? That's ;like saying Push the Limit should be nerfed because it's so good on Soontir Fel, or that Conner Nets should be nerfed because of Miranda.

22 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

The Jumpmaster has proved itself to be OP in pretty much every incarnation it's appeared in since it was released. Whether it was multiple generics with Deadeye, multiple generics with Mindlink, or any combination of Manaroo, Dengar and now Tel Trevura with a wide range of upgrades, it's always been at the top of the competitive meta.

Mindlink has been at the top of the competitive meta, but only in combination with the Jumpmaster.

If we were seeing Mindlink lists that didn't feature the Jumpmaster regularly dominating the competitive scene, maybe there'd be a valid argument for a Mindlink nerf. After all, it can potentially enhance the likes of Firespray, HWK, Kihraxz, StarViper, Scyk and IG-2000 builds - why should these ships lose the utility Mindlink can provide when it's the JM5K that's causing the problems? That's ;like saying Push the Limit should be nerfed because it's so good on Soontir Fel, or that Conner Nets should be nerfed because of Miranda.

But you didn't see other incarnations of JM5k until Deadeye was nerfed, then Zuckuss. Deadeye was the top list so no need to use the others even though they were also great.

So plausibly we will see the same thing with Mindlink, and you won't see the other powerful variants of Mindlink while people can use JM5k with it.

In the rare case the OP isn't trolling:


Mindlink gives you close to the action-economy of PtL, because you almost always want a Focus + SOMETHING even with PtL. Not always, but often.

3x Mindlink = 3 pts
3x PtL = 9 pts

So it's very, very cost effective.

On top of PtL, Mindlink also gives your ships collision and weaponized-stress insurance. Bumping a ship or getting double-stressed shuts down a ship with PtL, which goes from 2 Actions to 0 Actions. Mindlinked ships that bump or get double-stressed still get that Focus, so they go from 2 --> 1 action. So in those circumstances, it's twice as valuable as PtL, which becomes a dead upgrade.

Also, PtL ships always have to go green , where Mindlinked ships only need to go green if one of them gets stressed. So in a triple PtL list, you have three ships that all have to do greens every turn if they are using PtL. In a Mindlink list, you have ships getting two actions that don't necessarily ever have to go green, and when one does happen to get stressed and all have to go green, it's no different than an all PtL list. Of course, if you don't need the multiple actions, your ships can go white and as long as one gets its action, they all get a Focus.


TAKEAWAY : So, Mindlink is in some ways twice as a good as PtL while only costing a third of the points . If you can't see why this is amazing, you do not have a very deep understanding of X-Wing.

10 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

IMO most of the people crying about Mindlink are actually crying about Jumpmasters, Fenn, Assaj, and Ketsu, they're just misattributing the problem to Mindlink because that's the obvious part of the build. Take away Mindlink and you can still fit a ridiculous amount of goodness onto those few ships particularly - good Dengar Assaj builds don't even use mindlink, and Rauboats could fit PTL Fenn and drop to Crack Shot or 0 point EPTs on the Scouts, etc etc.

I've never seen anyone crying about Mindlink on G1As, zs, StarVipers, K-Fighters, Firesprays, Scyks, etc etc etc. It's the ships that are overpowered/underpriced, not the EPT. Take it away from them and they carry on being overpowered with the next best EPT.

Tl;dr? Mindlink is the symptom, not the disease.

Wouldn't be a problem if it was just on the forums but the podcast as well.

Also the whole dialgate thing in a way was because of mindlink. So far Gold Squadron was the only thing to follow up on it with a written statement. Everyone else has decided to stay clear of that issue even though I think it does warranted some orderly discussion like on a podcast (Forum discussions are too chaotic and let emotions run unchecked).

47 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Now you see better than those who say Push is better than Link with the Ace, it just isn't; guess few look outside the box at things; even look at the impossible; it tells the real story. Plus the 6 points you could save in your crew goes nicely elsewhere. How Attani could be factionless, like Sabine and Advanced Slam.

Now, I do think PTL has plenty of advantages over Mindlink, and vice versa. But considering PTL Fel hasn't exactly been having a good showing lately, a Mindlinked version might be a better bet currently.

54 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Imagine you took Soontir, made him bump-proof, gave him infinite prockets, and also made him a beast in a range 1 joust (oops, I ended up in too many arcs? Lemme just boost into range 1!). That's Mindlinked Fenn Rau.

I must respectfully disagree with this. Having seen Fel played exstinsively by friends and personal experience from flying Fenn Rau, there are several huge differences between Fel and Fenn. If you gave Fel all of what you are talking about, he would be an even better Ace than Fenn (for argument, not including Fel's ability in the comparison). The evade and double mod slot the Interceptor has lends to a very different play style with different fears. Fangs are beasts at range one and range three, but catch 'em at range two, and they sweat.

Increased Action Economy was a mistake.

11 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Tl;dr? Mindlink is the symptom, not the disease.

Well it's not surprising people put Mindlink on Scum's best ships. But this doesn't mean Mindlink itself isn't part of the problem. As evidence, I believe that if Mindlink was not "Scum Only" we'd see it dominating Imperial builds and Rebel builds as well. Alternatively, ban the Jumpmasters and the Lancers and the Protectorates, and I'm sure you'd see Mindlinked G1-As and Mindlinked Aggressors and other Mindlinked Scum ships rise to the top.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/ready-x-wing-worlds-2017-meta-analysis.html

How many of you guy's been reading this article? It summarize some good points in X-Wing meta.

" bligatory warning: watch out for elitism bias. When competitive players see a particular upgrade, ship, or list performing well, they tend to imitate it. This creates a feedback loop that makes the upgrade/ship/list seem even better. Just something to remember: don’t overreact to anything you see here."