Analyzing only the top 16 of worlds is actually not very helpful; and even expanding the analysis to top 32 (or the entire top 128), while good for getting some trend and meta info, is still just *one* tournament, and will have a lot of statistical "noise."

By that, I mean that a lot of good players ALMOST made the cut, and on any given day, another set of top 16 players could have feasibly gotten in.

Separately, the meta is insanely slow to adjust to new things. I actually do think JMKs (and much less mindlink, but possibly mindlink) are a problem, the meta has likely also not fully adjusted.

Also, towards Duncan's statement - I think there was a little bravado in it. We've talked more, and likely pushing mindlink to 2 points might be enough by itself, for the following reasons:

1. Nearly all mindlink lists would be pushed out (Old *** Fenn and Paratanni are immediately out)
2. ODJ would now be at 99, and trust me, running manaroo more naked actually does hurt that list. The list would still clearly be good at 99, but now imperials (and others) can actually feasibly bid below it, and any further cuts to manaroo to regain the bid advantage actively hurts the list's strength

Would that be enough? I honestly don't know. Mindlink at 3 points *might* still see play, but that's pushing it (and I'm not confident it actually would see much play, but that's a lot of playtesting for zero personal gain).

@sozin (I forgot to quote you, which would have helped focus this discussion - sorry!)

5 minutes ago, sozin said:

Duncan Howard said that he would pay three points for Mindlink in his 2017 worlds fenaroo (which was 96 points, he said he would drop it down to 90 points if need to be to make room for the more expensive ML).

That made me sit up in my chair when I heard it.

I really don't understand all these endless threads on the ML and Jump topic. It's straightforward: ML was unused until three amazing ships came along that could use it properly. Now its real power is evident, and the competitive scene really, really gets it. As with all complex systems it takes multiple factors to interoperate before the new emergent design reveals itself: on its own, Fenn "Infinite Prockets" is ok. On their own, the individual components of the Jumpmaster are maybe ok, but when you combine a white sloop, great dial, big ship BR, lots of great synergistic upgrade slots, and a dubious point cost -- and then you throw ML in there -- now you have a recipe for someone like Duncan willing to take a ten point init bid.

Reminds me of the old 87 point Whisper Echo lists

This is well penned.

This I did too. In addition, I also sat up when Duncan stated why he left his Palp Aces for Scum Aces or "Duncan's Johnson", and I learned why I should stop beating my head against a wall and give up flying my beloved Interceptors and other Aces when prepping for a tournament....the reason is: Scum HAS toys that no one else has. I learned that I was an idiot for trying to play against it over multiple games, multiple days; the math doesn't work for me at all; all my flying efforts and other modifications cannot overcome the efficiency of MindLink.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

"Duncan's Johnson"

I usually hate the twatty names people give lists, but that's fantastic.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

This is well penned.

This I did too. In addition, I also sat up when Duncan stated why he left his Palp Aces for Scum Aces or "Duncan's Johnson", and I learned why I should stop beating my head against a wall and give up flying my beloved Interceptors and other Aces when prepping for a tournament....the reason is: Scum HAS toys that no one else has. I learned that I was an idiot for trying to play against it over multiple games, multiple days; the math doesn't work for me at all; all my flying efforts and other modifications cannot overcome the efficiency of MindLink.

Also, Assaj.

The main reason he put down Soontir was Assaj. We both then gradually came to old fenaroo in like March, separately, because with the success of defenders and paratanii, we figured teroch would do really well (he did). We picked the list about 1 week before the nerfs, but decided it was good anyway (mindlink was still a thing, even if defenders weren't).

29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Old Fennaroo was literally the most common list in the Worlds top 16.

This statement actually isn't meaningful though. It performed well but is it the list limiting other lists? A good analogy to this is saying "oh well fat han lists won worlds, phantoms aren't the problem". Old fenaroo is just a scum adjusted palp aces or 2x ace support list. Sure manaroo fights a little better than the shuttle but the list can be fought on similar grounds as other ace hate.

42 minutes ago, haritos said:

1) I dont get the only evade or focus dilema, since most ships have more options, or just plain different options.

2) It was considered OP by who? The people who whine about everything and when you talk to them you discover they have zero arguments?

3) 3 points AND THREE EPTS. T H R E E EPTS. If you consider it amazing to give up all that so you can get a focus when you fall on every asteroid in the map and bump my ships while i also stress you and prohibidtyou from using red and possibly white maneuvers congrats.

I can do that by simply not flying like a drunk. I ll have more versatility in actions since x-wing is not called focus-wing and i ll also have 3 more points and 3 EPTs to melt you.

And you people think mindlink is OP. I should screenshot all the replies I see here so I can paste them back to you when the whiners win once more (cause of course they will) and something else simply replaces mindlink. Maybe then you ll understand mindlink was never the problem (although you failed to grasp that with deadeye, zuckuss and whatever else is im forgetting so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes high).

1) It was to show that most of the time, a focus is better than an evade.

2) Well not by me but it seems to have been by FFG and the people who tested the change.

3) It is even more amazing when someone knows how to pilot because it enables unpredictability. Example: when you are minlinked, most opponent wont expect you to kturn/troll/sloop. You can do that with your first ship to move and do a green maneuver with the other ones. Not saying it's always good but i got this to work more than once. You could decide to flight straight into a debris field and have your other 2 ships do greens. The magnitude of possible play this upgrade enables is not to be underestimated.

For 1-2-3, My goal was to illustrate that mindlink is in every way better than the pre-FAQ free evade defenders were getting.

Now about your last point, we agree but partially. I do think that mindlink needs to be modified but i also believe other changes will be required. Jumpmasters and Shadowcasters are just too good for their cost in comparison to every other large ships in the game. IMO the only one that come close is the Ghost.

5 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Example: when you are minlinked, most opponent wont expect you to kturn/troll/sloop. You can do that with your first 2 ships to move and do a green maneuver with the third one...

Well, you can do it with your first ship to move. You can only dial a red in on the second one if you really want to double stress yourself while doing a 2 straight.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Well, you can do it with your first ship to move. You can only dial a red in on the second one if you really want to double stress yourself while doing a 2 straight.

Interestingly, if they're both the same PS there are probably situations where dialing reds with two mindlink ships could actually be a solid tactical move - you get to see where your opponent is going and decide which one is better off actually doing a 2 straight rather than the red he dialled in, then move them in the appropriate order.

It's an interesting option that in nearly 4 months of playing 4 mindlinked ships all at the same PS, I'm pretty sure never actually came up XD

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Well, you can do it with your first ship to move. You can only dial a red in on the second one if you really want to double stress yourself while doing a 2 straight.

my bad, edited. Tks :-)

5 hours ago, haritos said:

I tried guys, I tried to believe in the latest propaganda. I failed.

Can someone explain to me why the mindlink tears wont stop flowing?

I get it, its good. Its really good. That's why you see it all over the place. Why is that bad? You also (used to?) see PTL all over the place. Because it's good. No, it's actually great. So are other upgrades and ships.

Mindlink is essentially a 1pt PTL (the card you called great) for your higher PS ships (the ones you want to live) that doesn't stress your ships when used, and supplies a focus if you are stressed. Imagine Soontir Fel if he got a focus token no matter what, before he reveals his dial, and you didnt need a crappy bomber or lambda in your squad. You could just focus with Sabaac or Duchess or 25ish pts. Soontir wouldnt care all that much from being blocked, or getting doubled stressed, cause he has tokens to survive, plus your squad is more powerful with Sabaac than a TIE shuttle.

Mindlink brings more than just a focus token. It provides more points, with better ships, which equates to stronger squads.

In comparison, Fleet Officer is 3pts, provides only 2 focus tokens, and stresses. PTL is 3pts and stresses. Hux is 5pts, 3 focus tokens, and stresses. Mindlink is 1 pt, infinite focus, no stress. The worse thing about mindlink, is that it is now the Scums "Biggs" problem. It will hamper squad creativity. And worse, every ship, every design decision from FFG has to incorporate the power of mindlink now. Cause they didnt incorporate it in the design of jumpmasters and lancers or else I think their hard greens would not be on the dials. EDIT: I think protectorates are perfectly fine, they need the 2 hard greens to survive or else they would get relegated to Talonbane status.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Interestingly, if they're both the same PS there are probably situations where dialing reds with two mindlink ships could actually be a solid tactical move - you get to see where your opponent is going and decide which one is better off actually doing a 2 straight rather than the red he dialled in, then move them in the appropriate order.

It's an interesting option that in nearly 4 months of playing 4 mindlinked ships all at the same PS, I'm pretty sure never actually came up XD

I'm not sure that would be legit. I dont think the rule is meant to work that way. I mean if your not accidently doing a red while stressed, shouldnt your opponent chose the maneuver your going to do?

Just now, Thormind said:

I'm not sure that would be legit. I dont think the rule is meant to work that way. I mean if your not accidently doing a red while stressed, shouldnt your opponent chose the maneuver your going to do?

Whether intended by the designers when put into the FAQ or not, that's how it would currently work.

10 minutes ago, wurms said:

Mindlink is essentially a 1pt PTL (the card you called great) for your higher PS ships (the ones you want to live) that doesn't stress your ships when used, and supplies a focus if you are stressed. Imagine Soontir Fel if he got a focus token no matter what, before he reveals his dial, and you didnt need a crappy bomber or lambda in your squad. You could just focus with Sabaac or Duchess or 25ish pts. Soontir wouldnt care all that much from being blocked, or getting doubled stressed, cause he has tokens to survive, plus your squad is more powerful with Sabaac than a TIE shuttle.

Mindlink brings more than just a focus token. It provides more points, with better ships, which equates to stronger squads.

In comparison, Fleet Officer is 3pts, provides only 2 focus tokens, and stresses. PTL is 3pts and stresses. Hux is 5pts, 3 focus tokens, and stresses. Mindlink is 1 pt, infinite focus, no stress. The worse thing about mindlink, is that it is now the Scums "Biggs" problem. It will hamper squad creativity. And worse, every ship, every design decision from FFG has to incorporate the power of mindlink now. Cause they didnt incorporate it in the design of jumpmasters and lancers or else I think their hard greens would not be on the dials. EDIT: I think protectorates are perfectly fine, they need the 2 hard greens to survive or else they would get relegated to Talonbane status.

....nice job breaking it down with illustration that recalls players salt over a far lesser issue; well done!

What if Mindlink was a free focus action, instead of just a free focus token?

11 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

....nice job breaking it down with illustration that recalls players salt over a far lesser issue; well done!

It's a good analysis, but it misses the two big penalties of Mindlink: shared stress, and losing your EPT when you're down to your last ship on the board. Neither are insignificant. Also, Soontir would care a LOT if he got double stressed, Soontir dies when he can't arc dodge or take evades. Mindlink would be OK on him, but PTL would still be king.

3 minutes ago, Necronsis said:

What if Mindlink was a free focus action, instead of just a free focus token?

It would kill it for a number of interesting lists using ships other than those with green hard turns, whilst not hampering those with green hard turns very much at all. It's probably the most common nerf suggestion.

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's a good analysis, but it misses the two big penalties of Mindlink: shared stress, and losing your EPT when you're down to your last ship on the board. Neither are insignificant. Also, Soontir would care a LOT if he got double stressed, Soontir dies when he can't arc dodge or take evades. Mindlink would be OK on him, but PTL would still be king.

Yeah, I get the penalties of Mindlink, but they are far outweighed by its massive bonuses. I do agree a double stressed Soontir is a dead Soontir; but I disagree that, given the choice, Soontir would rather PTL than have Mindlink. Two weeks ago, for pint-game fun, I put MindLink on my Interceptors and ran the squad to see how they fared against a friend. It was very, very nice. Thinking that I could have just had better positioning and dice, we switched squads. He quickly agreed; it is an awesome addition to Imperial Aces. I'd trade MindLink for PTL on my favorite lists any day of the week. No question.

And if my support ship could have Manaroos ability, mods and dial, I'm f***ing in like Flinn baby!!

I'd be interested to try it, but it sounds questionable to have Soontir unable to get his pilot ability without stressing everyone, and to have no reliable way to get it except by K turning. His pilot ability is a huge part of why he is (well, was) good.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It would kill it for a number of interesting lists using ships other than those with green hard turns, whilst not hampering those with green hard turns very much at all. It's probably the most common nerf suggestion.

I wonder whether they'll add the other bit of the X7 nerf instead and make it that you can't be assigned a focus token if you're touching another ship's base.

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It would kill it for a number of interesting lists using ships other than those with green hard turns, whilst not hampering those with green hard turns very much at all. It's probably the most common nerf suggestion.

Each time you are assigned a focus or stress token, each other friendly ship with Attanni Mindlink must also be assigned the same type of token if it does not already have one up to a maximum of 3.

There we go. Now it's even more OP, but completely crumbles to stress, unless you have Guri, Palob, or Kaa'to.

15 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd be interested to try it, but it sounds questionable to have Soontir unable to get his pilot ability without stressing everyone, and to have no reliable way to get it except by K turning. His pilot ability is a huge part of why he is (well, was) good.

Try this out.....I did, it's yummy like birthday cake!

The Royal Guard

Soontir Fel (33) , TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE Title (0), Attani Mindlink (1), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Carnor Jax (32) , TIE Interceptor (26), Royal Guard TIE Title (0), Attani Mindlink (1), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Countess Ryad (35) , TIE Defender (34), TIE X7 Title (-2), Attani Mindlink (1), Juke (2)

Mindlink can pretty easily be fixed, and you don't even really need to target the card itself (which is fine IMO). The problem is that there are two really good ships that can act as mindlink batteries for a squad and mostly ignore it's downside via green hard turns and turrets/mobile arcs (Jumpmaster and Shadowcaster). By targeting these ships rather than the upgrade you can fix the issue:

1) Asajj: At the start of the Combat phase, you may choose a ship at Range 1-2. If it is inside your mobile firing arc, assign 1 stress token to it, then receive a stress token.

2) Jumpmaster chassis: Basically they just need to bite the bullet and hit this ship's efficiency. Increasing it's cost, removing the barrel roll, and moving the astro to the title is my prefered fix, but anything that reduces it's overall efficiency will work.

The Asajj fix is simple, hurts her as an attanni carrier and has the added bonus of toning down her (IMO) over-the-top pilot ability and making it an actual trade-off like R3A2. With the Jumpmaster, FFG just needs to grow a pair and smack them with a large efficiency decrease rather than chipping away at particular builds.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd be interested to try it, but it sounds questionable to have Soontir unable to get his pilot ability without stressing everyone, and to have no reliable way to get it except by K turning. His pilot ability is a huge part of why he is (well, was) good.

I've been theorizing about that and the conclusion I and some of my friends came to was that Fel's ability would act as further resistance to stress control. You probably won't be able to use it as heavily as the PTL version, but the idea of the person stressing your list is also the one responsible for supplying you team with focus tokens has a certain sadistic charm.

Jumpmasters are which ship again???

2 minutes ago, CRCL said:

The Asajj fix is simple, hurts her as an attanni carrier and has the added bonus of toning down her (IMO) over-the-top pilot ability and making it an actual trade-off like R3A2. With the Jumpmaster, FFG just needs to grow a pair and smack them with a large efficiency decrease rather than chipping away at particular builds .

This.

Can we make this a quote in a signature box for everyone who has any self respect posting on the forum?

4 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Mindlink can pretty easily be fixed, and you don't even really need to target the card itself (which is fine IMO). The problem is that there are two really good ships that can act as mindlink batteries for a squad and mostly ignore it's downside via green hard turns and turrets/mobile arcs (Jumpmaster and Shadowcaster). By targeting these ships rather than the upgrade you can fix the issue:

1) Asajj: At the start of the Combat phase, you may choose a ship at Range 1-2. If it is inside your mobile firing arc, assign 1 stress token to it, then receive a stress token.

2) Jumpmaster chassis: Basically they just need to bite the bullet and hit this ship's efficiency. Increasing it's cost, removing the barrel roll, and moving the astro to the title is my prefered fix, but anything that reduces it's overall efficiency will work.

The Asajj fix is simple, hurts her as an attanni carrier and has the added bonus of toning down her (IMO) over-the-top pilot ability and making it an actual trade-off like R3A2. With the Jumpmaster, FFG just needs to grow a pair and smack them with a large efficiency decrease rather than chipping away at particular builds.

@FTS Gecko will love that Ventress fix