1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'll tell you what happens - you get a great squad that's fun to fly. All we need to do is ban Asajj, Jumpmasters and Fenn Rau like you suggest.

Where in the world did I say ban Asajj, J5k and Rau?

Is this Trump's FFG account? Should i just ignore him?

8 minutes ago, haritos said:

15 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

Mindlink gives you the same **** for 3 ships for a combined total of 2 points less and no stress when doing it.

"But hey stress counters this." No. No, it does not.

Stress is of little consequence to the list cause you need to unstress just one ship to get actions on stressed ships anyway.
So your WORST CASE is only one action instead of constantly getting two. And lets not forget about certain crew options and astromech options that just invalidate stress further.

You, like everyone else, just conveniently overlooked the fact that you also ate up 3 EPTs, in addition to the cost.

So what?

If this is by far the best option out there why would you ever need those slots? For what?

If your cost of three epts gives you a result better than anything else it is no cost.


And with one focus you increase the average dmg of three attack dice from 1.5 to 2.25 wich is a 50% increase.
Dice mods win games.

And when you usually have more mods than the other guy plus reposition options and your worst case is having about as much dice mods as your opponent then that is a balance issue.

Besides its not like you can bring endless stress generators plus all lists without stress generators have to face this too.

1 minute ago, Doppelganger said:

If your cost of three epts gives you a result better than anything else it is no cost.

Er...what?

When all other options are inferior why ever choose anything different?

Besides what is your argument anyway? Nerf all good scum ships that can use attanni to not nerf mindlink?

That means that all non-mindlink squads with the same ships suffer for no reason. The entire problem is that this card is a must pick.

1 minute ago, haritos said:

Where in the world did I say ban Asajj, J5k and Rau?

Is this Trump's FFG account? Should i just ignore him?

Oh, ok. So why is it relevant if Mindlink is fine on ships that nobody uses it on?

I mean they nerfed Palpatine but when I ran him on the Firespray with my two TIE Punishers he wasn't a problem at all! And they changed the whole rules around decloaking just because of Whisper, hurting all those people playing Sigma Squadron Pilots.

Your argument is circular and flawed. Which of course you know. Just state your position honestly and be done with it - that you think Jumpmasters with Mindlink is really good but not overpowered and you're happy to play the game in that way. Nothing wrong in that, it's a fair position to hold - some people hold it, some people don't.

4 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

When all other options are inferior why ever choose anything different?

Besides what is your argument anyway? Nerf all good scum ships that can use attanni to not nerf mindlink?

That means that all non-mindlink squads with the same ships suffer for no reason. The entire problem is that this card is a must pick.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I mean, to take Dengar/Assaj as an example, the core of that build is Denger/Expertise/K4/Unhinged/Punishing One, Assaj/PTL/Latts. That's 95 points and it's perfectly run-able at that point value, filling out those extra 5 points is just gravy. Dengaroo was the same, its bare minimum core clocked in at 88 points ! (Dengar/Lone Wolf/Countermeasures/Stim/Title/Zuckuss, Manaroo/PTL/EM/Plasma, though it still needed a bunch of extra upgrades to get to full potential, it could run as low as 95 or 96). Parattani is ONLY possible because of those ships all being as cheap as they are; any one of them being even a point more would have left it in a much worse place, it clocks in with 3 of the most efficient ships in the game at exactly 100, and it's still good even after a major nerf to one of its best tricks. Rauboats clocks in at 94 points without crew on the U Boats (mindlink, EM, Plasma on the JMs, standard mindlink Fenn); K4s definitely make it better, but you could afford to drop the JMs down to Trick Shot, bump Fenn up to PTL, and STILL buy the K4s in 100 points.

As regards Ketsu/Assaj, just look at Boba and Kath for comparison. A point more PS on each of them, broadly similarly good abilities (Both Ketsu and Boba get outstanding damage improvement but only at R1, and Assaj vs Kath isn't quite as good a comparison, but they both like pointing their weirds arcs at people. But the Lancers get a VASTLY better dial, mobile arc, extra illicit slot, and much more useful title, at the cost only of the Missile slot and the Bomb slot, which is pretty much a wash for me. And Boba and Kath cost a point more each than Ketsu and Assaj, despite being at least two points each worse.

Jumps are radically undercosted and over-slotted, Fenn, Assaj and Ketsu are at least a point undercosted each.

This is a pretty comprehensive answer to that assertion: if you take Mindlink away from the underpriced ships it will just be replaced with something else and they'll continue to be underpriced. Heck, taking Deadeye away from them is ALREADY the reason that Jumps are using Mindlink instead.

For a similar argument, Dengar/Tel also clocks in at around 90 points with the bare minimum upgrade set - you don't have to compromise *at all* to get it working perfectly, you can fill literally every slot if you want to. It's 98 points with every slot filled with the best possible option except for the two Illicits, and there only being one applicable Title.

That's not to say, as noted above, that Mindlink doesn't also need some nerf bat love, but it doesn't need anywhere near as much as a lot of people seem to think.

One last try for both of you bros.

We 'll do it the medieval way: duel and see who is right.

You make the best mindlink list you can think of without Asajj, Rau and the J5k .

Tell your friend to make the best non-mindlink list i can think of that uses only Asajj, Rau and the J5k .

Play 10 games. See who won. Then, come and tell me which of those 2 elements is the strongest. The mindlink upgrade or the ships.

Now you know which of the 2 you have to nerf if you find the combination of those 2 elements problematic.

I personally dont find anything wrong with the list, nor do I want anything nerfed. I'm just fighting baseless propaganda, and saying that if something was to be nerfed, its definitely not mindlink.

5 minutes ago, haritos said:

One last try for both of you bros.

We 'll do it the medieval way: duel and see who is right.

You make the best mindlink list you can think of without Asajj, Rau and the J5k .

Tell your friend to make the best non-mindlink list i can think of that uses only Asajj, Rau and the J5k .

Play 10 games. See who won. Then, come and tell me which of those 2 elements is the strongest. The mindlink upgrade or the ships.

Now you know which of the 2 you have to nerf if you find the combination of those 2 factors problematic.

I think that's going to be a pretty close match, tbf. There's some very good Mindlink lists from before people really latched onto Paratanni.

Our old pre-Paratanni Kavil/Palob/Guri list was very mean, for example... I'm genuinely not sure if there's a non-Mindlinked Asajj/Rau list that beats it. Probably Tom Reed's double PTL Shadow Casters from Worlds would do it, but it wouldn't be a gimme.

The thing is, I would 100% agree that Mindlink makes good fun squads, and I love how it helps otherwise weak scum ships step up and win games. But if you DO think that there's something wrong with 70% of the Worlds Top-16 flying the same thing (which is not an unreasonable position to hold) then you have to look at which of the factors is not just 'the bigger problem' but also which is easier to solve and least likely to resurface after future releases, or to limit what gets made in future releases.

29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Mine have numbers.

But you're presenting a false dichotomy.

Wow.... This thread. Anyway.

How scared would we all be of Bossk with white two hard turns? Kavil with white three hards? I am totally on board with (I think it was @thespaceinvader idea first) of adding text to Mindlink that alters the color of turns. I might go simpler and say treat all hard turns as white. Only hurts JM5K, Protectorate, and Lancer. Only helps Bossk and Kavil.

This sort of tweak has zero effect on every other scum ship. It wouldn't balance the game on its own but it would only do good things.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think that's going to be a pretty close match, tbf. There's some very good Mindlink lists from before people really latched onto Paratanni - the 186th Squadron boys flew them at Worlds 2016 I think and only narrowly missed the cut if I remember.

Our old pre-Paratanni Kavil/Palob/Guri list was very mean, for example... I'm genuinely not sure if there's a non-Mindlinked Asajj/Rau list that beats it. Probably Tom Reed's double PTL Shadow Casters from Worlds would do it, but it wouldn't be a gimme.

I'd rate Dengar/Assaj pretty highly against that. I'd be happy to test it out on Vassal some time, though probably not until at least a week after Euros as I'm hella busy up until then.

Dengar/Assaj BTW would probably be my example of a non-mindlink JM/Assaj/Rau list that is very strong. Or, for that matter, the one that won worlds, Dengar/Tel.

3 minutes ago, AlexW said:

But you're presenting a false dichotomy.

If I am, so's SotL. Perhaps you could elaborate.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

If I am, so's SotL.

I'm not sure you can have a dichotomy with one thing :-/

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm not sure you can have a dichotomy with one thing :-/

You're presenting a dichotomy betwee mindlink and everything else in x wing, I'm presenting a dichotomy between a small category of underpriced ships and everything else in x wing. Seems pretty analogous to me.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Dengar/Assaj BTW would probably be my example of a non-mindlink JM/Assaj/Rau list that is very strong. Or, for that matter, the one that won worlds, Dengar/Tel.

Totally fair. Dengar/Tel exists and would utterly destroy it.

Just because, you know, people seem to care what I think, if a way were found to change the Jumpmaster that FFG are prepared to use then I would be first in line to say 'yes, do it'. But I'd then continue to be concerned that all those Mindlink lists wouldn't just morph into the JM5k-less version that was actually the most successful Mindlink list at Worlds, and I'd continue to worry about it's interaction with any future scum releases.

It's why I think you need to address both the Jumpmaster AND Mindlink. How hard those nerfs are is probably where the fine-tuning lies because I think if you take both those things away from Scum at the same time then you hurl the faction back into the dark ages along with the Imperials, and basically give the game to the Rebels. It needs to be a part of wider balancing operation that seeks to pin Scum back a lot and Rebels back a bit to allow Imperials room to operate.

15 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If I am, so's SotL.

Sort of. I mean, is it really new that World's top cut is dominated by the most cost effective ships in the game? My point is that it can actually be both. I didn't get the impression that SOTL was setting it up against everything else as "the problem" but was answering the question in the OP.

What's new this year is that a single upgrade is ridiculously prevalent, and whether people like the upgrade, think it is broken or not, it should give us at least give us pause when you consider that we're in Wave Double Digits and there are 36 EPTs, and that the ubiquity of mindlink should also be a clear answer to the OPs question.

11 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Totally fair. Dengar/Tel exists and would utterly destroy it.

Just because, you know, people seem to care what I think, if a way were found to change the Jumpmaster that FFG are prepared to use then I would be first in line to say 'yes, do it'. But I'd then continue to be concerned that all those Mindlink lists wouldn't just morph into the JM5k-less version that was actually the most successful Mindlink list at Worlds, and I'd continue to worry about it's interaction with any future scum releases.

I'm kind of inclined to say that we're vigorously agreeing at this point, actually tbh, just coming at it from different initial angles. I come at it from the angle of really enjoying playing Mindlink on ships that aren;t from that batch of underpriced stuff, and being disappointed that it's just not good enough to work at high level.

My core thesis is that Fenn, Assaj, and probably Teroch and Ketsu for good measure, are underpriced by about a point each, that Jumps are all underpriced by about 2 points and they should all have their prices changed accordingly, and that Scouts shouldn't have an EPT, and the Punishing One title should be the source of the Salvaged Astromech slot. And that Mindlink should be nerfed a little to make the green turns white on ships that use it, and to prevent focus stacking.

Mindlink is a bit OP, the underpriced Scum ships are a lot OP, the combination of both is hideously meta breaking.

If that batch of stuff were fixed, I think we'd see a pretty open, balanced Scum meta where Mindlink had a strong place primarily on low-points small based ships and some Protectorates, and other EPTs had more of a place on large based ships and protectorates, and U boats basically weren't a thing.

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Sort of. I mean, is it really new that World's top cut is dominated by the most cost effective ships in the game?

What's new this year is that a single upgrade is ridiculously prevalent, and whether people like the upgrade, think it is broken or not, it should give us at least give us pause when you consider that we're in Wave Double Digits and there are 36 EPTs, and that ubiquity should also be a clear answer to the OPs question.

By the same token, we're in Wave Double Digits, there are literally HUNDREDS of pilots in this game and the top 16 at Worlds had 17 distinct pilots in it.

I view that as a similarly concerning issue. I think they're both concerning, I don't think I've made a secret of that, and if I've appeared to, I apologise. People implying heavily that it's ONLY Mindlink that's the issue is what I find problematic.

Genie is already out of the bottle. Take away mindlink and all you get is a new flavored JM5K and some other ships.

The upgrades are not the problem. It's a combination of point costs, upgrade slots, and dials. That's why it's been so hard to nail down with a Nerf.

I really like Scum. I liked them when I first got into the game before I knew anything about anything in the meta. I really don't want to see the chassis gone for good, but am not sure what the plan is to rebalance everything. Changing dials is a very difficult process. Same for point costs or moving slots around (as some have suggested moving slots onto the JM title). As much as I hate to say it, the "simplest" way to solve the convoluted mess is to just say "no JM5k in organized play" or something to that effect. Which would suck, I have two of them.

Here's a thought that came to me as I was typing: would it be enough of a Nerf to have their PWT become just a primary weapon forward? Would require minimal reprinting and means they have to point their ship at you even beyond a torp run?

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I can tell which one it is

FAQ: For competitive play, all JM5K's must have a title equiped to compete.

Ship the following title with future kits to be distributed to attendee's with JM5K's. (If no title card is available, write on back of bar napkin and proceed as if legit)

JM5K Title: [Insert witty name] "Insert witty flavor text" Effect: None. Cost 3.

Still lets you run 1 under-costed JM5K with P1 title.

I think the argument existing in this thread is pointless; it's akin to arguing over which stinks more, the horrible fart in the room or the wet turd lying on the floor. It is a bit unnecessary.

I think it's common knowledge that the Jumpmaster is a clear apology from FFG to the Scum faction and a implemented plan to pull it out of the dumpster it was in competitively. It was a grand and useful project, however they faltered in the details, as they went overboard in the dial, cost and modification abilities. Plus, they admittedly didn't properly play test it. The problem with it is clear and proven, they just cannot bring themselves to address it head-on, but that's another issue altogether.

As far as game balance goes, the JK5 stinks.

On the other, in my opinion, Mindlink was supposed to assist older unused ships (which it really can) and be a maybe on the new ships too. In reality, while it does assist under-performing Scum chassis, it has been hijacked by the new hotness and has created a low-cost-monster. It's practically an auto include because it is 1 squad point, powerful, and works regardless of stress and bumping. And the argument I've heard that it's akin to the historic popularity of Push the Limit is childish at best. The ONLY thing it really has in common is its popularity and use. Other than that, the differences are quite stark: PTL is NOT faction specific whereas ML is; PTL costs 3 squad points whereas ML costs 1 (so on the OPs example that ML costs 3 points for three ships (oh wow), PTL will cost that same 3 ship squad bloody 9 points in contrast); PTL gives you a stress when you get your bonus action like a focus whereas you can get a focus via ML stressed, bumped or not and it doesn't give you a stress for that focus.

Simply put:

Jumpmaster is clearly, stupidly broken...it stinks up the room.

MindLink is good for pre-Wave 8 ships but is clearly too good for 1 squad point on Wave 8 plus "apology ships"...it stinks too.

41 minutes ago, AlexW said:

What's new this year is that a single upgrade is ridiculously prevalent, and whether people like the upgrade, think it is broken or not, it should give us at least give us pause when you consider that we're in Wave Double Digits and there are 36 EPTs, and that the ubiquity of mindlink should also be a clear answer to the OPs question.

New? You had deadeye last year. Deadeye's gone. Then you had Zuckuss. Zuckuss is gone. Now you have mindlink.

Guess what has stayed the same? The j5k.

When will you people get it?

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

MindLink is good for pre-Wave 8 ships but is clearly too good for 1 squad point on Wave 8 plus "apology ships"...it stinks too.

....so basically what I said. Its the ships, not the upgrade.

Just now, haritos said:

New? You had deadeye last year. Deadeye's gone. Then you had Zuckuss. Zuckuss is gone. Now you have mindlink.

Guess what has stayed the same? The j5k.

When will you people get it?

Both can actually be a problem.

Deadeye never had an impact at World's, so yes, a single upgrade dominating World's the way mindlink did was actually new.

It's also worth noting that the list that was winning the late regionals and system opens did not include a jumpmaster and was built around mindlink.

1 minute ago, haritos said:

....so basically what I said. Its the ships, not the upgrade.

It's both.

8 minutes ago, Cr0aker said:

FAQ: For competitive play, all JM5K's must have a title equiped to compete.

Somebody on the Slack channel came up with a really drastic suggestion yesterday that is going to get knee-jerk hated on here but which I actually don't mind that much.

You cannot play large ships without a title equipped.

It's a kick in the nuts to the Hound's Tooth, but otherwise I genuinely don't hate it in like 90% of situations. Lambda and Deci are a bit sad, but maybe it would have made Palp Aces a bit less annoying back in the day anyway which is no bad thing.

For such a dramatic rules change (which will never happen) it's actually pretty neat.