So far we've seen 2 cards that create duels and nothing that improves your chances of winning a duel.

In addition Mil is Crane worst stat (max 3) and neither duels use the base stat. Duels might be a lot less lopsided in this L5R.

37 minutes ago, Mig el Pig said:

So far we've seen 2 cards that create duels and nothing that improves your chances of winning a duel.

In addition Mil is Crane worst stat (max 3) and neither duels use the base stat. Duels might be a lot less lopsided in this L5R.

Don't attachments or events that add to your military/political stat also help during a duel? I expect many duels to be made in a lopsided manner as they were in the ccg. I also expect some duels to be made in order to use the honor dial and for some cards to be focused around that dial. The Scorpion already have one character than can do that.

4 hours ago, Mirith said:

I don't think we know yet. Assumption is challenger wins, because attacker wins, but I don't think it has been clarified.

This is a good question for Friday.

In the CCG, if there was a tie in a duel, both characters suffered the consequences of losing the duel, except for duelists (unless both were duelists, in which case both still lost). So far, it seems likely that this will continue in the LCG.

1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

Don't attachments or events that add to your military/political stat also help during a duel? I expect many duels to be made in a lopsided manner as they were in the ccg. I also expect some duels to be made in order to use the honor dial and for some cards to be focused around that dial. The Scorpion already have one character than can do that.

Yes but so far Banzai, Way of the Lion, etc help more for dueling. I know we can honor our personalities, attach a katana etc but so can our opponents. To make Crane THE duel clan (with Dragon a close second ) they need some tricks to manipulate duels.

Duelist training is a bow, with sometimes an additional cost and your personality can end up bowed. For Kakita Kaizen more powerful effect you have the disadvantage that your opponent chooses which character he want to enter the duel. If it's mil this can be problematic versus atleast Lion, Crab and probably Unicorn.

If it was vs. Lion, Crab and Unicorn I would put Kaizen in a political battle and dare my opponent to waste a strong military guy on the battle. If not, Kaizen is destroying any semblance of a defense to my political attacks.

6 hours ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

I have to say, I really don't like the idea of betting honor to win duels.

I like it, because it implicitly shows how dueling fits into the Crane's plans, as opposed to explicitly just giving Crane more duel-based cards.

Look, get your Crane character with Duelist Training into a duel. Who and against whom doesn't matter for the example, but let's just say the numbers are pretty reasonable -- 4 your side, 2 or 3 on the other.

The Crane is saying "I'm going to win this duel unless you do something to stop me. Whether that something is paying me honor or discarding your hand, that's fine by me. Or you can let me win by bidding 1, that's fine by me, too."

13 hours ago, Eye of Night said:

In the CCG, if there was a tie in a duel, both characters suffered the consequences of losing the duel, except for duelists (unless both were duelists, in which case both still lost). So far, it seems likely that this will continue in the LCG.

Do you have evidence or reasoning behind this, besides "Its what the CCG did?"

I would point out that in the CCG, if you had equal force in a battle, both sides lost everyone. They changed it so that there is always a winner in a conflict (Not that it really made sense to keep it). Based on this, I would expect something similar for duels, where the 'attacker' wins ties (IE the Challenger).

This is all of course speculation. Someone ask tomorrow in the FFG live show.

Yeah, so far we have not heard what happens in a tie on a duel.

14 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Yeah, so far we have not heard what happens in a tie on a duel.

We could try to extrapolate from incomplete data....

In the CCG both side 'lost' on a tie in battle and both sides lost in a duel in a tie.

We know that the attacker wins ties in a LCG conflict....

Or

Quote

Join Fantasy Flight Games on our Facebook page this Friday at 11:00 a.m. CST for an L5RLive Facebook Live Stream with Story Lead Katrina Ostrander and Designers Nate French and Brad Andres to discuss the Crane Clan. Don’t forget to tweet your questions to @FFGames on Twitter using the hashtag “#L5RLive” for a chance to have them answered on air!

I would say Lion could easily duel most of the time cause tacticians had high Chi for the most part, and the tactician decks already had high focus values. I must say it was a lot of fun to beat a dragon or crane dueling deck at thier own game. The problem with duels for me was always bully duels, i'd like them to say printed so you cant just stack weapons and the dueling mechanic matters most of the time.

Right not I feel like I have 2 options;

• 1. Win the duel but lose honor
• 2. Gain honor but lose the duel.

Seems kinda crazy to me.

14 hours ago, Kubernes said:

Don't attachments or events that add to your military/political stat also help during a duel? I expect many duels to be made in a lopsided manner as they were in the ccg. I also expect some duels to be made in order to use the honor dial and for some cards to be focused around that dial. The Scorpion already have one character than can do that.

I agree, I wish they would use base stats, but I believe they will be lopsided as they used to be with weapons or even just honored state putting them out of reach of the challenged aka the duel mechanic becomes pointless

13 hours ago, Mig el Pig said:

Yes but so far Banzai, Way of the Lion, etc help more for dueling. I know we can honor our personalities, attach a katana etc but so can our opponents. To make Crane THE duel clan (with Dragon a close second ) they need some tricks to manipulate duels.

Duelist training is a bow, with sometimes an additional cost and your personality can end up bowed. For Kakita Kaizen more powerful effect you have the disadvantage that your opponent chooses which character he want to enter the duel. If it's mil this can be problematic versus atleast Lion, Crab and probably Unicorn.

Except that if he loses he just goes home straight and ready to enter the next Duel, he could easily be used as a honor gain mechanic. If your opponent uses someone not 4 higher in the mil, you can bid low hoping for honor gain, or high and possible send thier entire army home. if they throw a scrub most likely no honor gain and everyone else goes home. If they can way overpower you, well you shouldn't use his ability till you fix that.

Are abilities once per conflict or once per turn, cause oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 3 honor run home....

2 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Are abilities once per conflict or once per turn, cause oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 3 honor run home....

All abilities are once per turn by default.

2 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

I agree, I wish they would use base stats, but I believe they will be lopsided as they used to be with weapons or even just honored state putting them out of reach of the challenged aka the duel mechanic becomes pointless

Except that if he loses he just goes home straight and ready to enter the next Duel, he could easily be used as a honor gain mechanic. If your opponent uses someone not 4 higher in the mil, you can bid low hoping for honor gain, or high and possible send thier entire army home. if they throw a scrub most likely no honor gain and everyone else goes home. If they can way overpower you, well you shouldn't use his ability till you fix that.

Are abilities once per conflict or once per turn, cause oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 1 honor run home, oops i lost gain 3 honor run home....

Character abilities are once per turn unless stated otherwise.

6 minutes ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

Right not I feel like I have 2 options;

• 1. Win the duel but lose honor
• 2. Gain honor but lose the duel.

Seems kinda crazy to me.

I think it's rather fitting. Initially, you're comparing skill to skill. If both sides bid 1, they're just seeing who is more skilled. Someone who is bidding more than 1 is relying on something beyond his own skill, which is probably dishonorable.

@Akodo_Metuki

Abilities are once per turn.

Don't forget that you send his entire army home unbowed except the personality that was in the duel. Although you can perhaps save your province from a swarm a 2 personality army only loses 1 person. And your opponent gets to decide which one. You might still lose the battle and the province.

You also can't guarante getting honor. If both you and your opponent bid the same nobody gets anything. In the worst case his ability reads: Gain nothing, go home yourself. In the best case you might send home 2 or 3 personalities but they are still unbowed, can defend or attack and the battle isn't over yet.

The same for duelist training. You might bow yourself or your opponent's character. The Lion 3 cost can, while attacking, bow any crane character anywhere she wants.

I'm not saying dueling is bad but, I have to repeat myself, at the moment we've seen 2 cards iniating a duel and nothing Crane/Dragon specific to give us a better change at winning the duel itself nor extra rewards for winning. Although their are cards that boost your MIL strength nearly all clans have acces to them.

It's a new game and I don't want to compare with o5r too much but duelling used to be a 6 cost character like Kakita Hideo killing a Clan Champion, regardless of attachments, and gaing honor and other bonuses through focus effects.

I'm not saying we should return to his kind of duelling but the current version doesn't look very powerful. At the moment a 1 cost Lion Deathseeker or a 2 cost Aggresive Moto is just as good at duelling as the best Crane personality. This will change once we get more cards interacting with duelling. Dragon for example already has 2 nice cards they can splash from Crane. Admit defeat works great with the Mirumoto Prodigy and Duelist training is an attachment, which is one of the dragon themes.

12 minutes ago, Mig el Pig said:

@Akodo_Metuki

Abilities are once per turn.

Don't forget that you send his entire army home unbowed except the personality that was in the duel. Although you can perhaps save your province from a swarm a 2 personality army only loses 1 person. And your opponent gets to decide which one. You might still lose the battle and the province.

You also can't guarante getting honor. If both you and your opponent bid the same nobody gets anything. In the worst case his ability reads: Gain nothing, go home yourself. In the best case you might send home 2 or 3 personalities but they are still unbowed, can defend or attack and the battle isn't over yet.

The same for duelist training. You might bow yourself or your opponent's character. The Lion 3 cost can, while attacking, bow any crane character anywhere she wants.

I'm not saying dueling is bad but, I have to repeat myself, at the moment we've seen 2 cards iniating a duel and nothing Crane/Dragon specific to give us a better change at winning the duel itself nor extra rewards for winning. Although their are cards that boost your MIL strength nearly all clans have acces to them.

It's a new game and I don't want to compare with o5r too much but duelling used to be a 6 cost character like Kakita Hideo killing a Clan Champion, regardless of attachments, and gaing honor and other bonuses through focus effects.

I'm not saying we should return to his kind of duelling but the current version doesn't look very powerful. At the moment a 1 cost Lion Deathseeker or a 2 cost Aggresive Moto is just as good at duelling as the best Crane personality. This will change once we get more cards interacting with duelling. Dragon for example already has 2 nice cards they can splash from Crane. Admit defeat works great with the Mirumoto Prodigy and Duelist training is an attachment, which is one of the dragon themes.

I think we'll see more cards triggering off of duels, but I'm glad duels themselves aren't too potent. This game in general seems far more inclined towards small effects building on each other rather than large effects crushing your opponent.

I, for one, will be quite happy if duels move from "auto-kill anything you want" to "tricky things that can benefit you, but you have to think carefully about how to use them".

1 hour ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

Right not I feel like I have 2 options;

• 1. Win the duel but lose honor
• 2. Gain honor but lose the duel.

Seems kinda crazy to me.

That is quite simplistic. Keep in mind that you will be doing duels with honored characters (most of the time, if possible). Doji Challenger is then 5 Military. So is Kaezin while Hotaru would be 6. That should reduce some honor lose. While I do not expect Crane to be as good at dishonoring like Scorpion, they do have tools and a ring, which help to reduce honor lost in duels. Specially against your honored characters. Plus nothing prevents Cranes to be the target of a Banzai! or Fine Katana before the duel, for example. And in case of Dueling Training, you can choose to discard cards instead of losing honor. As the card pool increases, I expect Crane to get more tricks to avoid risking honor to win duels, as I do expect political duels (poetry, ikebana, fashion...).

Meanwhile, only an unprepared duelist loses honor to win duels. Or a desperate one. Maybe.

1 hour ago, Mig el Pig said:

It's a new game and I don't want to compare with o5r too much but duelling used to be a 6 cost character like Kakita Hideo killing a Clan Champion, regardless of attachments, and gaing honor and other bonuses through focus effects.

Can't you see how wrong that is? For next to no investment you were killing a very expensive character with attachments and you gained other things off of it.

As far as what Crane and dragon have that make them better duelists? Well for 1, Crane have the duels. We haven't seen every card but right now the only way to initiate a duel is with crane cards. Of the two cards, the unique has a powerful effect should he win and so/so disadvantage if you lose. You are either sending home all but 1 of his guys or just sending home him. Further, you should probably only be using his ability if you start out ahead or think you can bluff for honor. As for the other card, you can put it on any character you want and you control the targets. Provided you start even a little ahead, you are probably safe bidding 1 and winning or gaining a bunch honor.

As for dragon, while we haven't seen a lot of cards, we know they have attachments and those will help with dueling.

31 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

Can't you see how wrong that is? For next to no investment you were killing a very expensive character with attachments and you gained other things off of it.

If you read my post you would have noticed the next line.

Every Bushi is trained in basic duelling.

The way I've always taken it, Crane and Dragon get special Duelist traits/cards/etc because they focus on it so intently they learn things nobody else does about duelling.

So yeah, technically anyone can duel, but only Crane/Dragon have special tricks up their sleeves for it, so I'm fine with them getting the majority of duelling focus.

There are lots of niches that different clans are good at, and everyone else is forced to play around. Phoenix get powerful Shugenja, Unicorn get cavalry.

I agree duelling decks in old5R wasn't fun to play against, but I'm optimistic this rework is better balanced this time around.

2 hours ago, Mig el Pig said:

@Akodo_Metuki

Abilities are once per turn.

Don't forget that you send his entire army home unbowed except the personality that was in the duel. Although you can perhaps save your province from a swarm a 2 personality army only loses 1 person. And your opponent gets to decide which one. You might still lose the battle and the province.

You also can't guarante getting honor. If both you and your opponent bid the same nobody gets anything. In the worst case his ability reads: Gain nothing, go home yourself. In the best case you might send home 2 or 3 personalities but they are still unbowed, can defend or attack and the battle isn't over yet.

The same for duelist training. You might bow yourself or your opponent's character. The Lion 3 cost can, while attacking, bow any crane character anywhere she wants.

I'm not saying dueling is bad but, I have to repeat myself, at the moment we've seen 2 cards iniating a duel and nothing Crane/Dragon specific to give us a better change at winning the duel itself nor extra rewards for winning. Although their are cards that boost your MIL strength nearly all clans have acces to them.

It's a new game and I don't want to compare with o5r too much but duelling used to be a 6 cost character like Kakita Hideo killing a Clan Champion, regardless of attachments, and gaing honor and other bonuses through focus effects.

I'm not saying we should return to his kind of duelling but the current version doesn't look very powerful. At the moment a 1 cost Lion Deathseeker or a 2 cost Aggresive Moto is just as good at duelling as the best Crane personality. This will change once we get more cards interacting with duelling. Dragon for example already has 2 nice cards they can splash from Crane. Admit defeat works great with the Mirumoto Prodigy and Duelist training is an attachment, which is one of the dragon themes.

But if they can't start a duel........

2 hours ago, Mig el Pig said:

I'm not saying we should return to his kind of duelling but the current version doesn't look very powerful. At the moment a 1 cost Lion Deathseeker or a 2 cost Aggresive Moto is just as good at duelling as the best Crane personality.

Only when the characters are not honorable. If Doji Challenger, Kakita Kaezin or Doji Hotaru are honorable you are facing a 5+ Military characters which ill smack down a 3 Military Aggressive Moto or a 3 (4 if honorable) Military Matsu Berzerker/Lion's Pride Brawler.

57 minutes ago, Teslacrashed said:

So yeah, technically anyone can duel, but only Crane/Dragon have special tricks up their sleeves for it, so I'm fine with them getting the majority of duelling focus.

There are lots of niches that different clans are good at, and everyone else is forced to play around. Phoenix get powerful Shugenja, Unicorn get cavalry.

Yep.

From an RPG point of view, one could see that everybody has their duelist school of sorts. The Ide have one, although it is kind of limited and for advanced characters. And dueling being so basic to samurai, not having at least some training or technique unless you train with Dragon or Crane, would be a bit silly. But Crane or Dragon being able to get more techniques in duels, is something that no one could deny.

Shugenjas, more of the same.

But with cavalry... Not really sure how that can be reflected. Other clans may have cavalry, like old Hida Tsuru's unit, but in theory it is inferior because of ponies, less tradition on that kind of warfare, no proper gear for cavalry like stirrups,... As movements tricks seems the only thing going for Unicorn besides "Only attack, never defend*" and considering how infrequent/rare will be for other clans to have cavalry units in suficient numbers, not sure if cavalry tricks for non unicorns will be common enough to be a thing, unlike dueling.

* I hope that is not really the case but so far, that is what the descriptions say

Or, I don't really know how beneficial this would be, you could just bully duel weenies with raw stats where they can't win regardless of how much they bid.

Example: honorable Doji Hotaru with +1 bid = 7mil vs a 0 or 1 mil character.

Maybe your goal will be to actually duel dishonorable characters...

Point it's, you should be able to win duels without losing honor.

I'm just going to wait and see personally.