Just now, Jedi samurai said:

But if only 2 clans can play events that create duels, then not much has changed.

If you really want to, you can Influence them into your deck.

4 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

If you really want to, you can Influence them into your deck.

but if you can't play the events cause they require a duelist (ie - if its like Shugenja and the spell we've seen) then nothing has changed.

You also have a limited amount of influence and you can only pick from 1 clan - if thats your goal, just play the original clan.

If they want to avoid that pitfall every clan needs to have some duelists and some unique ways to generating duels. I would agree that Dragon and Crane should be tied for the most - but the other 5 clans shouldn't have no options/access either.

Think of it like spells and shugenja - of course the Phoenix should have the most characters and the most in-clan spells - but every clan should have SOME access and SOME options.

2 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

but if you can't play the events cause they require a duelist (ie - if its like Shugenja and the spell we've seen) then nothing has changed.

You also have a limited amount of influence and you can only pick from 1 clan - if thats your goal, just play the original clan.

If they want to avoid that pitfall every clan needs to have some duelists and some unique ways to generating duels. I would agree that Dragon and Crane should be tied for the most - but the other 5 clans shouldn't have no options/access either.

Think of it like spells and shugenja - of course the Phoenix should have the most characters and the most in-clan spells - but every clan should have SOME access and SOME options.

I mean I guess? But right now there are only two cards that create duels, and only one of them needs a Duelist to play (because it is actually printed on a Duelist).

1 minute ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I mean I guess? But right now there are only two cards that create duels, and only one of them needs a Duelist to play (because it is actually printed on a Duelist).

True, but other isn't an event. And duelist is a bolded trait like Shugenja, Courtier etc.... is, I don't think its crazy or out of the question to assume it will factor into game design/rules like Shugenja, Couriter etc... appear to be.

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

True, but other isn't an event. And duelist is a bolded trait like Shugenja, Courtier etc.... is, I don't think its crazy or out of the question to assume it will factor into game design/rules like Shugenja, Couriter etc... appear to be.

You're right the other is a splashable attachment that puts the duel on the attached character.

Yes, eventually there will be cards that target Duelists, but it is too early to tell. It really looks like you're just looking for something to complain about. I'll leave you to it.

I bet there will be neutral duelists to help shore up a lack of duelists in other clans, like some form of ronin for hire or personal yojimbo.

4 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

You're right the other is a splashable attachment that puts the duel on the attached character.

Yes, eventually there will be cards that target Duelists, but it is too early to tell. It really looks like you're just looking for something to complain about. I'll leave you to it.

lol - so you agree with me there WILL be cards that target duelists (which would then lead to the issues I outlined if they are excusive to 2 clans), then dismiss that very logical assumption because........reasons......??

Just now, Jedi samurai said:

lol - so you agree with me there WILL be cards that target duelists (which would then lead to the issues I outlined if they are excusive to 2 clans), then dismiss that very logical assumption because........reasons......??

I never disagreed that there might ever be.

2 minutes ago, kpsmith said:

I bet there will be neutral duelists to help shore up a lack of duelists in other clans, like some form of ronin for hire or personal yojimbo.

to booster or augment - absolutely. But it woudl kinda suck if every other clan has to play ronin just to make up for that lack.

No one would agree that 3-4-5 clans should need to rely on ronin or imperial characters for shugenja or courtiers or bushi......duelist shouldn't be any different.

As in this version seems that duels are about base Military stat, a raging (banzai) dumb matsu berserker becomes much deadlier duelist than kakita school best disciple.

Honored Cranes laugh at dishonored Matsu Berserker.

8 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I never disagreed that there might ever be.

come on - you agree with me then said its too early to tell, and bringing it up is just complaining to complain.

Either you agree with my very logical assumption about the duelist trait (which you apparently do) which is what could lead to the pitfall's I'm saying I hope they are goign to avoid, or you don't (though you said you do so.....)

The other option is you give the other clans something....comparative. Dueling became an issue in the CCG when two clans had access to powerful (arguable the most powerful at times) offensive/card removal in the game or honor gain, and the other 5-7 clans had no real answer for it. If ninja or bitter lies, and Deathseeker and Berserker and battle maiden etc.... while not working in the same way (ie - I doubt they'll use the betting wheel thing) if they are of comparative strength ..... then its a wash.

There is also the....flavor of dueling. It makes no sense from an in world perspective for only 2 clans to be any good at dueling. When you can boil any political issue or disagreement down to a duel, there wouldn't only be two clans that specialize in it. It makes no sense, the Crane and Dragon would be able to get anything they wanted politically while every other clan would be left out.

5 minutes ago, kempy said:

As in this version seems that duels are about base Military stat, a raging (banzai) dumb matsu berserker becomes much deadlier duelist than kakita school best disciple.

I would be surprised if we don't see political duels.

I would assume once we see the whole set and start getting boosters that Dragon will have more military duels and crane more political ones.

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

come on - you agree with me then said its too early to tell, and bringing it up is just complaining to complain.

Either you agree with my very logical assumption about the duelist trait (which you apparently do) which is what could lead to the pitfall's I'm saying I hope they are goign to avoid, or you don't (though you said you do so.....)

I haven't disagreed with you once. I'm just telling you it's too early for you to come to the conclusion that FFG's already screwed the dueling pooch.

Just now, Jedi samurai said:

I would be surprised if we don't see political duels.

I would assume once we see the whole set and start getting boosters that Dragon will have more military duels and crane more political ones.

There will be duels of Political, Glory, Fate or even Influence as main stat, but question is what kind will be in majority.

3 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I haven't disagreed with you once. I'm just telling you it's too early for you to come to the conclusion that FFG's already screwed the dueling pooch.

I didn't come to that conclusion.

I came to the conclusion that duelist will be treated like a trait like the other ones we've seen and I HOPE they don't make the same mistake AEG made and give everyone access.

"hopefully one lesson FFG learned from AEG is to give all clans access to dueling and not making it exclusively a Crane/Dragon thing" - Reading for the win.

I guess I don't see the issue with some events/attachments requiring duelists, and only the Crane and Dragon getting them. I assume there will be events and attachments that only affect Cavalry, Berserkers, or Scouts and I don't expect every clan to be able to make use of them either. FFG has already spoiled a card that enables duels between non-duelists, and I expect we will see more (and neutral ones too, if not now definitely eventually).

2 minutes ago, kempy said:

There will be duels of Political, Glory, Fate or even Influence as main stat, but question is what kind will be in majority.

Depends on the clan.

Dragon using fate would be interesting.

2 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

I guess I don't see the issue with some events/attachments requiring duelists, and only the Crane and Dragon getting them. I assume there will be events and attachments that only affect Cavalry, Berserkers, or Scouts and I don't expect every clan to be able to make use of them either. FFG has already spoiled a card that enables duels between non-duelists, and I expect we will see more (and neutral ones too, if not now definitely eventually).

They never figured this balancing out with AEG.

And there is the above flavor thing - it doesn't make a lot of sense in world.

3 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

Did you notice that Duelist Training (Core Set, 142) is a call back to CCG dueling mechanic?

And with 1 Influence, you may see it in Dragon decks that have to get their duel on.

It's certainly likely it will end up in my deck. That said, there's no reason to think Dragon won't get an at least somewhat equivalent amount of duel cards. Their duels may a bit of a different style, but I'll be surprised (and disappointed) if they are capable of dueling with in-clan cards.

46 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

I realize that.

But if only 2 clans can play events that create duels, then not much has changed.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, duels are the established means of settling disputes and defending one's honor in the Empire, so it's something that all clans should have some access to. On the other, the Kakita and Mirumoto schools are widely recognized as the best in the Empire, so they should certainly have a leg up in deckbuilding with a focus on dueling.

1 minute ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, duels are the established means of settling disputes and defending one's honor in the Empire, so it's something that all clans should have some access to. On the other, the Kakita and Mirumoto schools are widely recognized as the best in the Empire, so they should certainly have a leg up in deckbuilding with a focus on dueling.

I would certainly say that the Crane and Dragon should have the same kind of leg up in dueling that Phoenix have with Spells and shugenja.

But like Spells and Shugenja, every clan should have access and their own.......flavor. Bayushi duelists cheat. Hida duelists don't be faster but absorb the first hit and kill their opponent after, Shiba are better when a shugenja is around etc..

21 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

It's certainly likely it will end up in my deck. That said, there's no reason to think Dragon won't get an at least somewhat equivalent amount of duel cards. Their duels may a bit of a different style, but I'll be surprised (and disappointed) if they are capable of dueling with in-clan cards.

at worst dragon will be a close second to the Crane. I doubt they'll make a change that big/fundemental to them.

I have to say, I really don't like the idea of betting honor to win duels.

The other clans, at the minimum, would send members of their clan to either the Iron Mountain Dojo or the Kakita Dueling Academy to learn from the Dragon and Crane duelists. They'd have to have skilled champions for their commanders so they didn't get punked every time they met a Crane or Dragon army on the field of battle. I think especially the Lion Clan would have skilled duelists among their ranks.

So is Bayushi Manipulator secret duel tech? Is this the return of ninja duelling?!