Thermal Detonator is balanced in such a way that if you use the special side of the die you are discarding a 3 cost upgrade from play. Which essentially is a 3 cost to use. However when you cheat it out with Poe you don't have to pay the "discard" fee if you will. Doesn't this just straight up unbalance the card?

Theming - Poe is an ace pilot. "I can fly anything." It makes sense that he could pay the cost to put the vehicle into play, but shouldn't his special only be usable with vehicles from the get go? He's not a weapon master, he's a vehicle master?

Curious what others think on this.

I know this might come off as a "QQ poe maz" post. I'm fine playing against it or piloting it myself. I'm just curious on the balance / theming of the cards.

Cheers!

Yep. It's not just true of thermal detonator. If anyone else wants to use a support they have to get the card, get the resources, play the support, activate the support, then get lucky or manipulate the dice to get the result needed. All of that is the cost for the use of the support.

I really think that Poe's ability should work like 'Ace in the hole' where the dice gets rolled in (with an option to resolve immediately) rather than just choosing the result. Alternatively let it only work with vehicles.

QQ Poe

But it's not the same as a support. Because none of those dice* have effects that are balanced by discarding the card from play to use the ability.

It's definitely a combination of all the easy big and aoe damage effects available to Poe/Maz and all the ways to get Poe onto that Special side.

I'm on board with only vehicles, more thematic that way (and drops it down to just the U-Wing and Falcon as big hitters for now), but I also think that there should be some limit to it's use with rerolls (and stuff like Throne Room).

I'd say errata to vehicles only and see where it goes from there.

I can picture Poe popping open the cockpit and chucking that thing onto a target during a fly-by! Very thematic!!

Poe is perfecty fine, just leave him alone. If anything is just stupid broken, than you should point out Fast Hands.

Theme and balance have nothing to do with each other.

***** and whine all you want, but Poe will get errata'd to only be able to use his special on Vehicle cards/dice.

Leaving him where he is at, isnt about him being "too OP"...its about him limiting future design.

~D

41 minutes ago, Hennessy said:

Poe is perfecty fine, just leave him alone. If anything is just stupid broken, than you should point out Fast Hands.

Poe MIGHT be perfectly fine, but might not. We'll see how the tournament scene works out.

It's fair to say that ePoe/eMaz is a sort of easy mode deck that mitigates most of the dice randomization and deals consistent levels of high damage. It wins far more than it loses against most decks and isn't much fun to play against.

Fast Hands is a nice card, but doesn't win games the same way that the ePoe/eMaz combo does.

5 minutes ago, HoodieDM said:

***** and whine all you want, but Poe will get errata'd to only be able to use his special on Vehicle cards/dice.

Leaving him where he is at, isnt about him being "too OP"...its about him limiting future design.

~D

Citation needed.

3 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Citation needed.

Look at Hyper Space Jump & Outer Rim Smuggler for all the citation needed, plus Lukas has noted he has no fear of creating a ban list if necessary. I hope they just errata him rather than ban.

~D

1 minute ago, HoodieDM said:

Look at Hyper Space Jump & Outer Rim Smuggler for all the citation needed, plus Lukas has noted he has no fear of creating a ban list if necessary. I hope they just errata him rather than ban.

~D

Those were both infinite combos. You know that old saying about what happens when you assume, right?

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Those were both infinite combos. You know that old saying about what happens when you assume, right?

One created an "infinite combo", the other an annoying combo. All of it is in regards to NPE.

And I am not assuming anything, I am telling you (someone who enjoys playing Poe) that he will get erratad.

~D

Citation needed.

6 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Fast Hands is a nice card, but doesn't win games the same way that the ePoe/eMaz combo does.

... Poe/Maz wins mainly because of Fast Hands.

But whatever. There is dozen of tier 1 decks so I really do not understand this hate regarding the one and only deck. Maybe it is because it contains 10+ legendaries and 90% of the player base can not afford it, or I really do not know. Poe/Rey is on the very same power level, but because noone is talking about it, than noone cares obviously.

Do you want to know which deck is not fun to play against?

Those freakin Ammo Belt / Second Chance boring decks including 2 Rebel and 2 Cheat ideally with Starship Graveyard.

Also playing against Palpatine when you do not have dice mitigation is not fun.

Playing against FN-2199 / Unkar /Nighstister deck with 25 weapon and draw cards like Boundless Ambitions, cycling 10 cards first round dealing 20+ damage is not fun.

And finally playing against fast hands Jabba with Blackmill and Sith lord is not fun when you play only 1 card per turn (if you have resources for it) is not fun.

Poe/Maz is just normal aggro deck and if you do not play 4 character deck, you should be able to play against it just normally. Apart from Thermals, they cannot deal more than 4 damage on averaga per turn if you mitigate one of his die and have sabotage in your deck.

Again, go back to my original post. Its not about Poe and throwing TDs or U-Wings or One with The Force. Its about him limiting future design of cards/sets.

But the deck does create an NPE as well.

~D

14 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Citation needed.

You must be fun at tournaments

~~~

Next month we'll probably see the results of the combo in question. Poe/Maz is the deck I've seen the most talk about both for and against and it mirrors other decks I've seen in other games and how players just stop playing because it's dumb and not fun. Stuff like this is why Magic Banned Jace the Mind Sculptor, people stopped showing up to events and they HAD to do something.

There are counters to the deck, and certain strategies that can beat it, but honestly if a player plays more than half their games against one deck or even perceives that that will be the situation they face, they are more than likely to not show up again or not show up in the first place. This is not what FFG wants to see, especially with the game just getting started.

38 minutes ago, RybackStun said:

You must be fun at tournaments

~~~

Next month we'll probably see the results of the combo in question. Poe/Maz is the deck I've seen the most talk about both for and against and it mirrors other decks I've seen in other games and how players just stop playing because it's dumb and not fun. Stuff like this is why Magic Banned Jace the Mind Sculptor, people stopped showing up to events and they HAD to do something.

There are counters to the deck, and certain strategies that can beat it, but honestly if a player plays more than half their games against one deck or even perceives that that will be the situation they face, they are more than likely to not show up again or not show up in the first place. This is not what FFG wants to see, especially with the game just getting started.

Couldn't agree more. The tournament scene will tell, but right now it feels like Poe/Maz is as close to you can get to a guaranteed thing. It's a combo deck where your most critical combo cards start play on the table.

5 hours ago, player679937 said:

Thermal Detonator is balanced in such a way that if you use the special side of the die you are discarding a 3 cost upgrade from play. Which essentially is a 3 cost to use. However when you cheat it out with Poe you don't have to pay the "discard" fee if you will. Doesn't this just straight up unbalance the card?

Theming - Poe is an ace pilot. "I can fly anything." It makes sense that he could pay the cost to put the vehicle into play, but shouldn't his special only be usable with vehicles from the get go? He's not a weapon master, he's a vehicle master?

Curious what others think on this.

I know this might come off as a "QQ poe maz" post. I'm fine playing against it or piloting it myself. I'm just curious on the balance / theming of the cards.

Cheers!

Agreed, partly. Limiting Poe's special to working with vehicles is definitely more thematic. Right now, you need 10 high-damage cards in your deck to have a better-than-average (55%) chance of drawing at least 2 of these high-damage cards in your opening hand, and that is without mulligans. If FFG limits Poe's special to only vehicles, the number of currently-playable cards with 3 or more damage drops to 8 (2 copies each of U-wing, Falcon, Black One, Jedi Starfighter). Seeing as you'll probably be running Yellow for Maz's dice fixing/resolving ability, you'll only get 6 playable cards, which leaves you with a 25% chance of drawing at least 2 in your opening hand. That definitely makes Poe/Maz less consistent and opens up deck-building space by allowing decks with less dice mitigation to stand a chance.

However the issue with doing that to Poe's special is that it severely limits design space for future Hero vehicles. If all you need is 10 vehicle cards to get a Poe deck back up to better-than-average odds of throwing massive damage in your face in just your opening hand, it won't take long to get there as future sets come out. None of us wants to have beloved vehicles like A-Wings, B-Wings, the Outrider, the Ghost, etc. intentionally designed to be weaker because they had to keep Poe's special in mind.

53 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Couldn't agree more. The tournament scene will tell, but right now it feels like Poe/Maz is as close to you can get to a guaranteed thing. It's a combo deck where your most critical combo cards start play on the table.

Agreed. Poe/Maz is remarkably consistent. Not only do you have a better-than-average chance of getting 2+ of the highest damage output cards available to heroes to start the game, you also get a ~70% chance of hitting at least one special by just activating both Poe and Maz (assuming no dice mitigation, no re-rolls, and you don't have your battlefield) - not to mention being able to use the best sides on those high-damage dice for free. Opponents are forced to play catch-up from the very beginning.

I like Poe/Maz, both piloting it and playing against it. Contrary to what a lot of people are saying, it can be very nuanced to play. Play-testing against it is a fantastic way of seeing if a deck idea you've come up with can withstand a hyperaggro onslaught. But, in all honesty, I really wish FFG would reconsider whether they want something as simple as a character combo to bring this level of consistency to the table.

ePoe/eMaz also sets the bar. It's so easy to play that you have to look at any deck as, can it beat this? If not, why play the build. You may have a build that stomps Unkar/Vader or Jango/Veers, etc - but, if that deck doesn't play faster than Poe/Maz then you won't play it in a tourney. Any tourney with enough people may not have Kylo/Vader, ePalp, LukeBar or other decent decks, but EVERY tourney will have Poe/Maz. It's just too easy to build and play. Price of Legendaries is its only barrier.

2 hours ago, RybackStun said:

You must be fun at tournaments

~~~

Next month we'll probably see the results of the combo in question. Poe/Maz is the deck I've seen the most talk about both for and against and it mirrors other decks I've seen in other games and how players just stop playing because it's dumb and not fun. Stuff like this is why Magic Banned Jace the Mind Sculptor, people stopped showing up to events and they HAD to do something.

There are counters to the deck, and certain strategies that can beat it, but honestly if a player plays more than half their games against one deck or even perceives that that will be the situation they face, they are more than likely to not show up again or not show up in the first place. This is not what FFG wants to see, especially with the game just getting started.

Sounds like Jango/Veers the first 6-8 weeks after Awakenings released. Where is that pairing now? Decks will rise to challenge Poe/Maz and all the controversy will eventually fade away, just like it did with Jango/Veers.

The obvious decks have their day in the sun early in the new meta. It's really fairly common with these types of games.

I've played against Vader Raider at every event or tournament I've been to. I think it's too early to know if Poe/Maz needs errata.

3 hours ago, HoodieDM said:

Again, go back to my original post. Its not about Poe and throwing TDs or U-Wings or One with The Force. Its about him limiting future design of cards/sets.

So, so many cards limit the future design of cards/sets.

It's a Trap, Sith Holocron, Millenium Falcon, Endless Ranks, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Imperial Inspection, ....just, way too many to name. Why is Poe worth special beef?

2 hours ago, Starbane said:

Sounds like Jango/Veers the first 6-8 weeks after Awakenings released. Where is that pairing now? Decks will rise to challenge Poe/Maz and all the controversy will eventually fade away, just like it did with Jango/Veers.

The obvious decks have their day in the sun early in the new meta. It's really fairly common with these types of games.

Jango/Veers was strong and was popular in tournaments. I'll get back to that later.

I like to play, I like to win and I also like to lose. Problem with Poe/Maz, it's not play that much... Game is so quick, I can't enjoy either Poe side or against. I have 2 counter deck, but again, main problems (Some were named earlier):

-Consistency (Very high % to have the card you want in opening hand)

-Too easy to play (Who doesnt understand His special), Poe is a combo by itself...

-Poe has high hp, Maz can be killed turn 1, but terrain and a little dice manipulation will bring Poe special back on track real fast.

It reminds me early Magic when my friends had either 6, 7 or even 9 card of the power nine. But even then, games were not that one sided.

If we consider Poe/Maz is replacing Jango/Veers, imagine what deck will replace Poe/Maz after next expansion... Turn 1 victory deck?

I think errata is imminent, even though would'nt solve everything:

-Limits, like no weapon (As previously stated)

-Raise Poe Cost (My least favorites)

-Make Poe special cost 1$, in special text, not on dice, like crime lord, so nearly impossible to avoid cost. (My favorites)

-Do not reprint Poe immediately, price will go so high, people will think counter Poe deck instead of poe.

But:

2 hours ago, CBMarkham said:

So, so many cards limit the future design of cards/sets.

It's a Trap, Sith Holocron, Millenium Falcon, Endless Ranks, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Imperial Inspection, ....just, way too many to name. Why is Poe worth special beef?

At the same time, i think this game needs a game disigner "manager", someone with huge ccg experience to retake control of rules and cards. Too many cards are too "radical" with actual rules. Since there is only 2 sets, it is not too late!

Lukas on a resent TC interview said he was aware of the problem and is monitoring it.

So if this deck becomes a huge problem something well be done. He also said in the same interview games should only last a few rounds and games should be quick. So the Poe/Maz deck fits with that vision. So those wanting an immediate ban shouldn't be hitting that refresh button on the FAQ too much.