If cybernetic limbs are a quicker route to increased characteristics compared to Dedication and have no drawback for taking them, why isn't everyone just maxing out cybernetics as much as heir Brawn allows? It seems to benefit munchkins over role players. Anybody else dealt with this?

Because they're pretty expensive.

Who are you, in-game? Do you have lots of money? Can you afford a paper-trail? Cybernetics are built, filed, and serial-numbered, the same as prosthetics, today, I'm assuming, and so there would be records of who got them, when, and what not. If you are a Rebel, you might be lacking the lifestyle to afford such records, and definitely the funds to buy them, pay a reputable surgeon to install them, and what not.

Psychologically, there is also the wonder "why replace something that works just fine, if I don't need it?" Are you playing for the numbers, or the character? Are you an Iron Hands Astartes, with a built-in, genetic disregard for (super) human flesh? Does your Primarch's disdain for weakness keep you up, at night, loathing your own flesh? Sorry, I know that this isn't Warhammer 40K forum, but the idea stands; most people wouldn't lop off a perfectly good body part, just for a lump of metal, just to get a better ________________. There are risks, maintenance, other issues, and the GM might say no, claiming you aren't playing your character; just an amalgamation of numbers, and you are trying for better. I would, at any rate.

I played a character in Shadowrun, at the turn of the millennium, and he was a Decker with maxxed out stats, regarding how much cybertech he could support, and literally a lighter adapter addition away from passing that Essence threshold, where you go cyber-mad, like in Alternity, but his backstory covered it, and he paid for all of it. For most people who aren't dedicated cyborgs, the idea is not preferable, despite the benefits. You might get that aforementioned munchkin, but then you just say "NO!!!", or you let him, and let the Empire track them by his implants. We all know that the monolithic Empire actually has soulless nobodies, whose whole life is sifting through endless data farms, trying to find info to support the Empire, crush the Rebellion, and find more alien porn that the xeno-hating Emperor doesn't want anyone else to know he secretly looks at, because even he, hopefully, has a summer place on Zeltros.

13 minutes ago, Haleron said:

If cybernetic limbs are a quicker route to increased characteristics compared to Dedication and have no drawback for taking them, why isn't everyone just maxing out cybernetics as much as heir Brawn allows? It seems to benefit munchkins over role players. Anybody else dealt with this?

Cybernetics cost money. The dedication talent does not.

Cybernetics are vulnerable to Ion weapons. The dedication talent is not.

Cybernetics are also a sensitive subject in the world of Star Wars. In general, in many places in the galaxy, Cyborgs have a pretty bad rap thanks to the Clone Wars. "Clankers" is a derogatory holdover from that era, but it doesn't apply to just droids (note that Grievous himself was called a "clanker").

I believe it's generally agreed that most stat-enhancing cybernetics are also "obvious" cybernetics—examples include Lobot, General Grievous, Cad Bane, Saw Gerrera, Aurra Sing, and many others, not to mention the most famous cyborg of all, Darth Vader. This is just how the source material usually represents cybernetic enhancements. There are the repli-limb prostheses, but those are simply meant to return functionality and can be easily made to look like the limb (or other body part) they replaced.

What you say is true in some ways: there are many, especially villains, who get a leg up on their opponents by enhancing themselves with cybernetics. But it's not without risk, and there exists the belief that cybernetics can dehumanize the user, making them think and act more like a machine (see for example Ben Kenobi's statement about Darth Vader, and the entry on the Intellect-enhancing attachment in the Core Rulebook).

You are welcome to run enhancements how you like them! But just be aware that Star Wars has a separate feel from Shadowrun—there are many reasons that individuals do not get cybernetically "enhanced," and it usually has very little to do with the cost (even though the cost is in itself a large obstacle). More powerful motivators are societal pressure, expectations, and personal beliefs regarding purity of body. Another of course is that you can be easily disabled by an EMP or an ion blaster

29 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Cybernetics cost money. The dedication talent does not.

Cybernetics are vulnerable to Ion weapons. The dedication talent is not.

Certainly this ^ first of all...

But also you can only do so much through cyber limbs (+1 Brawn, +1 Agi, and +1 Int is it, yea?).

And if your GM is handing out creds at a rate that is in fact makeing cyberlimbs substantially quicker to acquire than Dedication, I would say your GM is handing out too much cred.

Dedication is usually not that hard to hit (~75 xp at best to, I dunno, ~125 + new Spec charges - 20+ - at worst), at 350 xp a PC could very easily have their 2nd Dedication and even be very near its 3rd Dedication depending on their goals/other expenditures.

Which that much xp is maybe what, 20-some sessions in, conservatively?

So yea if you have banked 30K after 20-some sessions, that's averaging more than 1K per session which seems like a lot in my experience.

Lets compare that to Force Enhance which has similar drawbacks to Cyberlimbs (Commit FR), those are just 25-30 xp.

Sorry, I don't see the big deal.

Also remember you should be roleplaying. Most people aren't insane enough to just lop off their own arm to have it replaced with a bit of machine.

11 minutes ago, BipolarJuice said:

Also remember you should be roleplaying. Most people aren't insane enough to just lop off their own arm to have it replaced with a bit of machine.

Although I'm sure we've all had a bad guy that did just this, no?

33 minutes ago, BipolarJuice said:

Also remember you should be roleplaying. Most people aren't insane enough to just lop off their own arm to have it replaced with a bit of machine.

If it was a Force User, I think taking this "quick and easy" route to power would be worth some Conflict.

Since this is F&D, specifically, I'll also say that it only now seems a bit better of an idea because this is the first iteration in a good while where the Force, and cybernetics, don't fight one another over your body. Regardless of how you feel about the idea, and since this system DOES skip it, I hope this doesn't turn into a huge talk about this (I'm just mentioning it because I like to pull EU out if the dust), cybernetics once weakened Force-users. One theory would have you believe that, once he was so grievously injured, and "more machine now than man", Darth Vader's ability to use the Force was significantly deflated. In many editions, he was only as good as he was, on paper, because of his level, rarely taking anything to improve it, further, and this was, to many, an attempt to mechanically reflect that, with all that cybernetic augmentation, his connection to the Force was trashed. With his future-sight, and sheer power, he should've been able to Yoda it up, if had chosen, but Vader was always slow, menacing, and then savage. Partly, his prosthetics, but also, possibly, his Force connection was weakened, and only maintained by the constant agony he was in (Rogue One sort of ruins that, but to each their own interpretation).

Think back on the ancient Sith. These monsters sought every advantage, whether fighting the Jedi, the Republic, even each other; yet few ever stooped to cybernetic enhancement. Why? Because it probably would've weakened them, more than brought them advantage. In other EU, King Empatojayous Brand was mostly mechanical, after the Purge, and it ruined him. Irek Ismaren started out as regular, albeit slightly unhinged, kid, with a neat power to use the Force on machines, thanks to an implant his mother got him. Later, the loony young man got heavily modified, with strength enhancements, armored plating, and even several sockets for lightsabers, so he could fight something like Grievous, but it drove him crazy, and significantly weakened his powers, which, being Palpatine's son, he could've had some impressive skill, even though the Force wasn't hereditary, at the time (hazy).

tl;dr It's nice that the system finally doesn't throw in umpteen penalties for cybernectics, but maybe a few would've been nice. I think I'll say it shouldn't be a big problem, as Brawn slows you down, in regards to how many pieces you can support, and getting Brawn boosts from cybernetics doesn't REALLY give you better ability to support cybernetics, unless they ALSO give you something else, which this system doesn't seem to do. If you aren't dedicated Brawn, or dedicated Soak, you probably dump-statted Brawn, in this blaster-filled universe, and will still want some Dedication to round out your numbers. The parts can also stop working, as said, and are usually obvious, traceable, and going to get you treated poorly, even if you are human.

1 hour ago, emsquared said:

If it was a Force User, I think taking this "quick and easy" route to power would be worth some Conflict.

Self-mutilation? Absolutely. It's torture performed on yourself.

However, if you were just replacing a previously lost appendage with a cybernetic upgrade, I would think that such an attachment might be more of a narrative road to further conflict as you roleplay it out. The more weird looks you get, the more younglings that run from you, the more prejudice you experience—all of these can influence a person to a darker outlook.

While the books list full cybernetic replacement limbs as the standard, I would imagine that people simply looking to beef themselves up would enhance the limbs they already have. Considering what people do to themselves here on Earth, just to excel at a sport, I think cybernetic enhancements would be pretty common for mercenaries. These are guys who need every edge they can get just to survive.

So, you go to the cyberdoc, looking to enhance your already swole physique, but you're nervous about having your arms cut off and replaced? "No problem!" he says. "No need for such crude methods. I'll simply open up your arms at the shoulders, and infuse your bones with a Cortosis microthread weave to reinforce the structure. While I'm in there, I'll install a system of Artificial Dendtritic Stimulators (patent pending) which will amplify all signals to your muscles, generating more power and strength for, well, everything you do. The cost of such a procedure is comparable to a complete limb replacement. While the surgery on the actual arm is more delicate, it works with your existing nervous system, so there's no need to install a neural interface point at the site of amputation!" Then he pushes his glasses up excitedly.

4 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

So, you go to the cyberdoc, looking to enhance your already swole physique, but you're nervous about having your arms cut off and replaced? "No problem!" he says. "No need for such crude methods. I'll simply open up your arms at the shoulders, and infuse your bones with a Cortosis microthread weave to reinforce the structure. While I'm in there, I'll install a system of Artificial Dendtritic Stimulators (patent pending) which will amplify all signals to your muscles, generating more power and strength for, well, everything you do. The cost of such a procedure is comparable to a complete limb replacement. While the surgery on the actual arm is more delicate, it works with your existing nervous system, so there's no need to install a neural interface point at the site of amputation!" Then he pushes his glasses up excitedly.

You should also have him install retractable vamblades!

Or lightsaber shotos...?

14 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

While the books list full cybernetic replacement limbs as the standard, I would imagine that people simply looking to beef themselves up would enhance the limbs they already have. Considering what people do to themselves here on Earth, just to excel at a sport, I think cybernetic enhancements would be pretty common for mercenaries. These are guys who need every edge they can get just to survive.

So, you go to the cyberdoc, looking to enhance your already swole physique, but you're nervous about having your arms cut off and replaced? "No problem!" he says. "No need for such crude methods. I'll simply open up your arms at the shoulders, and infuse your bones with a Cortosis microthread weave to reinforce the structure. While I'm in there, I'll install a system of Artificial Dendtritic Stimulators (patent pending) which will amplify all signals to your muscles, generating more power and strength for, well, everything you do. The cost of such a procedure is comparable to a complete limb replacement. While the surgery on the actual arm is more delicate, it works with your existing nervous system, so there's no need to install a neural interface point at the site of amputation!" Then he pushes his glasses up excitedly.

Its been proven that having blades for legs helps you run faster , but you dont see many people getting an operation for it because they look so different and have their own problems. Similarly you dont see many people in star wars wandering around with cybernetics. Mind you it is a matter of pride amongst Ganks.

6 hours ago, syrath said:

Its been proven that having blades for legs helps you run faster , but you dont see many people getting an operation for it because they look so different and have their own problems. Similarly you dont see many people in star wars wandering around with cybernetics. Mind you it is a matter of pride amongst Ganks.

Uhhh, specialized (formed specifically for running) carbon fiber (expensive), customized (expensive) prosthetics may handle, transmit and return to the ground energy more efficiently than the human bone structure, but they don't "make you faster". Using something like that proficiently requires years of acclimation and use and still may never reach the level of coordination one has with their natural limbs, and very few ppl see a return on their daily life by having more spring in their step.

Cybernetic limbs that give someone like a mercenary a significant advantage in their life-stakes job and can be used like your natural limb out of the box isn't really comparable.

I know this will also stop some people for precisely -1 seconds, but there is also the issue of finding someone to perform your "unnecessary/cosmetic" surgery. If you aren't up on it, Dr. Evazen (that spelling is horrible) was a chop-shop surgeon, if you will, and, like I said, I'm sure your character could find another such person, but any reputable cyber-surgeon would likely refuse to lop off your arm, or both of your legs, to give you your mechanical boost. I know that, even today, we do have decent plastic surgeons, who will, for money, carve up, and remold one's face, but even they often have limits, and whole limbs may be one such limit. If you are with the Rebellion, they may not employ any such shoddy, shifty surgeons, while those on the street are, like Evazen, an immense risk. Will he do the surgery, once you are out? Will he do it well? If something goes HORRIBLY wrong, do you have any good options?

It's already been discussed, but yeah, the issues with going Borg are more than some might think. People get uncomfortable; you might have a whole system shut down, if you get hit with an ion weapon; paper trails; great expense, and on the list can go. And, of course, the person willing to risk all this, and chop themselves to bits, in the process, might even be a very interesting character, in their own right, but there should be issues, and various story hooks/angles, as a result of your hybrid nature. This has been a rather fun mechanical, philosophical, psychological, and social chat.

I guess if you want to play this game like a muchkin-circus. Sure.

I however like to roleplay and sometimes I even take options that are not optimal for my character, but they fit his persona.

5 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

I guess if you want to play this game like a muchkin-circus. Sure.

I however like to roleplay and sometimes I even take options that are not optimal for my character, but they fit his persona.

This

Yes, how DARE ppl derive enjoyment from the mechanical aspects of the game.

Well, I wouldn't want to tell someone not to enjoy the mechanical aspects, too; I play Wizards, over Fighters, because I like how they do what they do, in addition to the "feel" of the character, and the way they'll be perceived in the universe. It might be Wheel of Time (hide it, male channeler, or die!), or it might be D&D (put Gandalf to shame, and at a low level), but the idea is there. Still, I like them to fit, rather than JUST be an excuse to max out Intelligence, learn the three best spells, and such. Of course, this may very well be on account of I don't often try to optimize; whether I'm playing D&D, Star Wars, or even WoW, back in the day, I tried to find something, and be good at it, even if it wasn't, necessarily, worth being good at.

21 hours ago, emsquared said:

Yes, how DARE ppl derive enjoyment from the mechanical aspects of the game.

I don't think that's really the issue here. The OP is speaking about a hypothetical entire group of munchkin players (or perhaps not-so-hypothetical ) who max out their cybernetic slots simply because "that's the way to make the most effective party." While it's likely that one or more people in a play group are going to enjoy the mechanical aspects of the game the most, it is unlikely that this is the reason an entire group of players would become super-cyborgs. It smacks far less of "mechancial geekery" than it does of "trying to win Star Wars," and all because of a perceived "quick route to power" (which isn't really that quick) with no drawbacks—even though the drawbacks are, in fact, present both in the rules and in the lore of the game world.

The way I see it (and I could be wrong), it's not a question of deriving pleasure from a certain aspect of the game; it's a question of singling out one aspect of the game and ignoring all the others in an attempt to somehow beat the game.

So in a way, @SuperArppis ' munchkin-circus comment is quite accurate: you'd have quite the time trying to manage a whole party of cyborgs. Once they gained any degree of notoriety, it's only sensible that their enemies would start using ion weaponry against them; and so when each combat becomes a choice of "completely disable the entire party with ease, or just don't," it can become a challenge in terms of maintaining suspension of disbelief and catering to your players without letting them run roughshod over the rest of the game.

As indicated by my originals comments, I think any time this is actually happening (PCs kitting out with all the cybers, cuz it's the better option), it's a GM issue - awarding too much cred in relation to xp.

But/and I also am a believer that ppl should get to play how they want to play, including making choices for numbers if that's what drives them. There's always an IC reason available to spin, if you want to do it "backwards" like that.

If you don't want them to kit out with cyber don't dump so much cred on them. If you don't want to play with those ppl, that's understandable and that's your prerogative, but it's their perogative to play how they want to, and if you're showering them in cred you can't get mad when they spend how they want to.

And to come on here and talk down to ppl, as ppl have above, like they're not doing it right, or that you have some superior insight on how RPGs should be played, as happened above, is complete and utter ****, and poisonous to communities like this.

2 hours ago, emsquared said:

And to come on here and talk down to ppl, as ppl have above, like they're not doing it right, or that you have some superior insight on how RPGs should be played, as happened above, is complete and utter ****, and poisonous to communities like this.

I mostly agree, it's pretty common and easy to think that you've got it right, and anyone that presents a different viewpoint or comes at things from a different angle is misguided, or what have you. And it does have a negative effect on the community.

But in fairness, the OP was using hypothetical terms. There's nothing there to make us think that it's talking about a specific group of players that are doing something specific.

On 25.5.2017 at 10:22 PM, emsquared said:

Yes, how DARE ppl derive enjoyment from the mechanical aspects of the game.

I don't mind if people want that. It's completely ok.