38 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I had exactly the same reaction, except I replied on their Facebook. I turned it off halfway through.

Moisturegate

On 5/23/2017 at 6:09 PM, Rytackle said:

Ryan attempt to understand Juggler's Meta Analyzer

I'm a couple episodes behind, but I'd love to hear this one ASAP

Anybody has an exact timestamp of the beginning of that attempt?

Hey gang!

Quick note, everything between the Dragon and I are fine! I didn't even realized while we were recording it how "harsh" he was sounding lol.

I just didn't give the guys enough prep on what I was planning to do with the meta analyzer.

It's allllll goooooooooddddddddddd. Dee just gets really passionate about things lol. In the future it probably won't come off as directed at me!

There is good banter and bad banter. When you got hosts saying "I'm not interested" well why should I be interested enough to keep listening.

Mynocks aren't the only podcast to (repeatedly) bring up the Jumpmaster and/or Fenn Rau and/or Mindlink issues. At some point, though, one has to take the bull by the horns, stop talking about problems, and start talking about solutions. By this I don't mean complaining for FFG to fix things, I mean dealing with stuff on the table, because Store Championships are happening, and imagining Jumpmaster fixes isn't going to help anybody win. This comes down to two options. 1.) Talk about Jumpmasters/Mindlink/Rau and how best to play them. This helps people opting for the meta powerhouse. 2.) Talk about how different squads can hope to deal with hardcore Scum. By talk, I don't mean, "talk off the top of you head", I mean talk after conducting rigorous experiments to test theories and variations on one's favored list archetype. Option 2 is harder than Option 1, and takes more time to prep, but at some point, anybody who wants to talk about X-wing in the here-and-now in a meaningful way is going to have to dig deep and put in the groundwork to find ways to leverage advantages that their preferred squad has against Scum.

Shockingly, Krayts are doing a pretty solid job at 1.) They've (and by "They", I probably mostly mean "The Johnson") spent a fair number of their small budget of actual content minutes talking about how the list flies, and in what situations it excels, and tactics used against a variety of other powerful builds. I'd love to hear how Dallas attacks Old Man Fenn with a Crack Swarm. What's the first target? How does he try to block things? What has he tried that didn't work at all? Likewise, I want to hear about how Ryan is trying to leverage the advantages of TBC in a Fenn Rau World (you gotta make that Illicit slot do work!). Hell, if Dee is acting as OpFor, I want to hear his thoughts as he spars with his cohosts, where does he think progress is being made, how can Scum use the massive number of upgrade slots to adjust to challenges that emerge from outsiders.

I'm aware that I'm asking for a lot, and offering nothing of my own, (yet, I'm working on it) but I feel like the X-wing world is in a funk, and I'd rather see my people rage against the dying of the light than continuing the weary cycle.

21 hours ago, Chief Hugh said:

That's up to FFG. I think they should change his ability to "once per round when a friendly ship at range one..." and give us the freaking x

-wing fix.

You're missing the point. They say in the episode, and are correct in saying, that rebel ships and upgrades have been designed weaker because they have to account for scenarios where they are used with Biggs. Ships like the ARC and the upcoming Auzituck represent the best example of this - relatively high health, low ability ships that would die way too quickly if they didn't have Biggs' protection. I think that this also applies (to a somewhat lesser extent) to ships like the U Wing, K Wing, VCX and most of the named T-70s, B Wings and T-65s (certainly the ones from the transport).

So let's imagine you have a ban list that bans Biggs and nothing else as was suggested. What happens? Scum don't change - JM5ks, Attannis and Lancers are still on top of the heap there. Imperials don't change - Biggs was hardly their problem. But rebels? You're left with quad TLTs, trip Ks and fat turrets. How does that improve the game? ARCs are gone. The few rare T-70s, T-65s and B wings you see (admittedly off the top tables) are gone. The VCX is reduced to Heragator. The Auzituck is probably close to DoA, even with reinforce

And yes, FFG can absolutely get around all that with fixes. It's possible. But with the current distribution method, they can realistically fix maybe 5 ships a year with aces packs and epics? Even assuming a 100% success rate with those fixes, which they definitely don't have, that's at least a couple of years before they have had a chance to adjust every rebel ship, and that assumed they just ignore scum and imps, which of course they won't do.

The designers already hit upon a solution for Biggs - allowing Biggs to be bypassed by ordnance provides a huge opportunity for counterplay. And FFG are definitely not prevented from buffing the T-65 by Biggs; there have been many, many X Wing fix ideas that can be designed around him. My favourites are a straight points reduction that requires you to equip a torpedo, or one that was on the back to dials podcast that allowed named pilots above PS5 to share their pilot ability with generics below PS5, bypassing Biggs entirely, but those are hardly the only ones.

That aside, my point remains the same. As flawed as he may or may not be, Biggs has been and remains a fundamental pillar of the rebel faction since literally day one. If you pull him out, you risk the whole thing coming tumbling down around your ears.

I know that people say Rebel ships are designed around Biggs. But are we really sure they are in a meaningful way? Is Kanan on the Ghost, decked out, unplayable in a way that Rear Admiral Chiraneau is not? They have similar defensive profiles. RAC is a better arc dodger, but Kanan can reduce incoming damage. Kanan also hits harder in most circumstances against most targets, but is a few more points than a decked out RAC build, although technically comes with a second ship. Kanan is certainly less scary without Biggs, but is he unplayable? Hera made a dent at Yavin supported by Asohka instead of Biggs. Similarly, are ARCs truly unplayable without Biggs for protection? Yes, they can be focused down, but what if Rebels had a ship like Pure Sabacc, throwing mad offense for a very cheap price? Something like that screaming on a flank would either take a lot of heat off of an ARC, or get a couple turns weapons free on an enemy squad.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Similarly, are ARCs truly unplayable without Biggs for protection? Yes, they can be focused down, but what if Rebels had a ship like Pure Sabacc, throwing mad offense for a very cheap price? Something like that screaming on a flank would either take a lot of heat off of an ARC, or get a couple turns weapons free on an enemy squad.

This is exactly the issue though. Rebels can't have cheap, high damage output ships because Biggs mean they can't be counterplayed effectively. Imagine Fenn Rau (or something equivalent) in a rebel squad, for example. Even if he had been designed as a rebel flanker, you have to account for the fact that he's still potentially throwing two or three massive attacks with zero chance of taking him out until you've dealt with Biggs.

It's a catch-22. You can't design those kinds of ships because of Biggs, but you can't get rid of Biggs because the rebels lack those kinds of ships.

6 hours ago, Rytackle said:

Hey gang!

Quick note, everything between the Dragon and I are fine! I didn't even realized while we were recording it how "harsh" he was sounding lol.

I just didn't give the guys enough prep on what I was planning to do with the meta analyzer.

It's allllll goooooooooddddddddddd. Dee just gets really passionate about things lol. In the future it probably won't come off as directed at me!

Nope! We're never in a state of being fine Farmer is family to me, and we're constantly in a state of (occasionally constructive) familial mutual antagonism, which is what Farmer is referring to as fine. What we are is good.

What happened is that I was extremely irritated at him a few hours before recording, and it spilled over. Completely unprofessional of me, and I apologize to both Ryan and our listeners.

Nyet. Rebellion is fine.

what were the best lists prenerf? miranda dash/corran? triple ks? rey norra? Kanan biggs was really the only high tier Rebel list with biggs iirc. Biggs is excellent in the meta right now because scum alpha strikes from torp boats, fenn rau, bossk etc are super common and very strong. wasn't there a time where the premier rebel list was han/jake? ARCs and other ships are not successful exclusively because Biggs is around, they're good ships in their own right.

the formula of tank/ace/support ship is also really well placed right now, because of some really good synergies and meta weaknesses (stress is a great example for support, also see Shara and Ahsoka), and Biggs is a great cheap tank. Jess is a pretty great tank too, generating lots of potential threat in a cheap frame and rex isn't miserable either if you acknowledge he's frail as all hell.

wanna counter biggs? outmaneuver him, T-65s have *** repositioning. focus fire him with multiple ships, 3 attacks dealing 2 damage each kills the Biggs through R4-D6 and he only has two agility. you can ordnance away his ace too, since he can't stop things that require locks. run that tight formation through a tight asteroid field. Think about how your list can exploit one of his many weaknesses.

Biggs is fine. Rebellion is fine.

12 hours ago, Biophysical said:

A lot of stuff

11 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Even more stuff

This was the most eloquently worded git gud I've ever read. And I do mean that as a compliment, well said!

11 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

This is exactly the issue though. Rebels can't have cheap, high damage output ships because Biggs mean they can't be counterplayed effectively. Imagine Fenn Rau (or something equivalent) in a rebel squad, for example. Even if he had been designed as a rebel flanker, you have to account for the fact that he's still potentially throwing two or three massive attacks with zero chance of taking him out until you've dealt with Biggs.

It's a catch-22. You can't design those kinds of ships because of Biggs, but you can't get rid of Biggs because the rebels lack those kinds of ships.

I just want to note that nothing else even approaches Fenn rau levels of damage. Mindlink Fenn levels of consistency and damage output were clearly never intended. Just because Fenn doesn't exist in rebels doesn't mean Biggs is what's keeping him from existing.

12 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

So let's imagine you have a ban list that bans Biggs and nothing else as was suggested. What happens? Scum don't change - JM5ks, Attannis and Lancers are still on top of the heap there. Imperials don't change - Biggs was hardly their problem. But rebels? You're left with quad TLTs, trip Ks and fat turrets. How does that improve the game? ARCs are gone. The few rare T-70s, T-65s and B wings you see (admittedly off the top tables) are gone. The VCX is reduced to Heragator. The Auzituck is probably close to DoA, even with reinforce

...

That aside, my point remains the same. As flawed as he may or may not be, Biggs has been and remains a fundamental pillar of the rebel faction since literally day one. If you pull him out, you risk the whole thing coming tumbling down around your ears.

On this, I agree.

I, too, support nerfing or banning Biggs, but on the caveat that other things must also be nerfed and/or banned in conjunction.

If Biggs were banned, and no other changes were made, it would absolutely devastate Rebels (see: Palpatine).

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This was the most eloquently worded git gud I've ever read. And I do mean that as a compliment, well said!

Git gud is my reflexive response to almost every game-based complaint I read or hear. It's not always correct, but it does color my thought process.

20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Mindlink Fenn levels of consistency and damage output were clearly never intended.

* You * were never intended.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Git gud is my reflexive response to almost every game-based complaint I read or hear. It's not always correct, but it does color my thought process.

It's true, the number of people who's problems and complaints can't be solved by being better at the game is pretty small. Probably 0, even. Also, it's a good excuse to post this:

Glad everyone is getting along , but it made the podcast awkward and I stopped listening to this one. Started to border on relentless.

23 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Git gud is my reflexive response to almost every game-based complaint I read or hear. It's not always correct, but it does color my thought process.

Which is frustrating because it's so rarely the source of the issue, so not really a reasonable response.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Which is frustrating because it's so rarely the source of the issue, so not really a reasonable response.

Actually, player decisions, either squad building, rock placement, deployment setup, overall gameplan, or mid-game movement/tactical decisions, are primarily the reason people lose.

Not dice. Not luck.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Actually, player decisions, either squad building, rock placement, deployment setup, overall gameplan, or mid-game movement/tactical decisions, are primarily the reason people lose.

Not dice. Not luck.

And yet SO FEW of the people calling for nerfs are doing so because they aren't winning games. I mean Dee repeats it in pretty much every single podcast.

6 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Which is frustrating because it's so rarely the source of the issue, so not really a reasonable response.

I guess to elaborate, I don't have a lot of sympathy for excessive complaining about stuff. Not that Ithink that there aren't problems in the game, but I have finite time and energy, and I'd much rather spend that trying to solve the present problem with ships I like to fly rather than repeatedly voicing frustrations on any sort of public forum.

I understand this is my point of view, and not everybody is willing or able to spend their hobby time playing against themselves to hash out all the interactions between a couple if squads to find the cracks that can be exploited. That's right up my alley, though, and I think a lot of people could benefit from spending some mental energy understanding game interactions instead of complaining.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I guess to elaborate, I don't have a lot of sympathy for excessive complaining about stuff. Not that Ithink that there aren't problems in the game, but I have finite time and energy, and I'd much rather spend that trying to solve the present problem with ships I like to fly rather than repeatedly voicing frustrations on any sort of public forum.

I understand this is my point of view, and not everybody is willing or able to spend their hobby time playing against themselves to hash out all the interactions between a couple if squads to find the cracks that can be exploited. That's right up my alley, though, and I think a lot of people could benefit from spending some mental energy understanding game interactions instead of complaining.

Do you even internet bro?

8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

And yet SO FEW of the people calling for nerfs are doing so because they aren't winning games. I mean Dee repeats it in pretty much every single podcast.

That's part of the problem. It's an exhausted topic, it's not interesting, and continually pointing it out doesn't solve the problem on a "player about to go to store championships" level.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That's part of the problem. It's an exhausted topic, it's not interesting, and continually pointing it out doesn't solve the problem on a "player about to go to store championships" level.

Agree 100%.

I agree that parts of this podcast were a tad awkward. I understand x-wing can bring out peoples passions, but i felt like 80% of the podcast was Dee just shooting down Ryan before he had even finished a sentence. . . . something to consider.

Nonetheless, your podcast is my favorite and I will continue listening.

Long live xwing`!