4 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

According to meta-wing, between the release of imperial veterans and the great nerfing, commonwealth defenders was the number 2 archetype. Triple defenders was number 4 (number 1 was paratanni, #3 was dengaroo). Those 4 lists each were used ~200 times.

The next imperial archetype shows up at the #11 slot with only 53 uses, and still has palp and a defender just using an interceptor for the third ship instead of another defender.

Then at 14th you have....2 defenders with omega leader.

Next is a decimator with a defender

Note the theme here. Defenders didn't just see MORE play. They were in almost every single imperial list that did well, usually with more than 1 defender, and frequently with palp as well. Similar to the jumpmaster now as a matter of fact...

So all we can learn here is that they were used a lot because they were the only thing that could have even some success.

That's hardly the players' fault, playing the rare, competitive builds for the Imperials. And certainly not a reason to nerf them.

But nerfing Palpatine was far more stupid than the x7's.

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So all we can learn here is that they were used a lot because they were the only thing that could have even some success.

That's hardly the players' fault, playing the rare, competitive builds for the Imperials. And certainly not a reason to nerf them.

But nerfing Palpatine was far more stupid than the x7's.

They were played a lot becasue they were far better than anything else in the imperial arsenal with guaranteed evades every single round backed a free die change every round from palp. Now they're merely good instead of too good.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

They were played a lot becasue they were far better than anything else in the imperial arsenal with guaranteed evades every single round backed a free die change every round from palp. Now they're merely good instead of too good.

So nerfing them was right, just because they were competitive and played a lot? Doesn't that tell more of all the Imperial ships, that they were too bad to handle the competition?

6 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They were played a lot becasue they were far better than anything else in the imperial arsenal with guaranteed evades every single round backed a free die change every round from palp. Now they're merely OK instead of very good.

.....just a minor correction, according to historical high-end tournament records and my local experience.

16 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So all we can learn here is that they were used a lot because they were the only thing that could have even some success.

That's hardly the players' fault, playing the rare, competitive builds for the Imperials. And certainly not a reason to nerf them.

But nerfing Palpatine was far more stupid than the x7's.

I think no one can argue too much for the auto evade token when you run into an asteroid, but they went 50% too far imo....and Palp was OK as he was at 2 crew slots and 8 points. Now we see the truth huh!

4 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So nerfing them was right, just because they were competitive and played a lot? Doesn't that tell more of all the Imperial ships, that they were too bad to handle the competition?

Well, I hope you'll agree it is much easier to bring a ship down to the level of all the rest than the other way around.

20 minutes ago, Ladrillito said:

Well, I hope you'll agree it is much easier to bring a ship down to the level of all the rest than the other way around.

Yes, but if the Imperial base is below the other factions, then trouble starts.

30 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So nerfing them was right, just because they were competitive and played a lot? Doesn't that tell more of all the Imperial ships, that they were too bad to handle the competition?

Because they were TOO good and the ONLY thing played for imperial. There was no reason to take any other imperial ship (besides a palp shuttle) because the defenders were just better. When one ship is basically the only one used in a faction (occasionally another ship would show up alongside 2 defenders), that's a problem. Kind of like the jumpmaster everyone complains about being in almost every single scum list right now.

26 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

.....just a minor correction, according to historical high-end tournament records and my local experience.

I would argue the 3 post-nerf system opens weren't great representations since they were directly after the nerf took effect and I'd be willing to bet not a lot of people actually brought defenders. Despite that, vessery made top 4 at hoth and triple defenders made top 8 at tatooine. I'd say that's still better than "okay". And defenders have been showing up in quite a few cuts in store championships so far this season.

23 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I think no one can argue too much for the auto evade token when you run into an asteroid, but they went 50% too far imo....and Palp was OK as he was at 2 crew slots and 8 points. Now we see the truth huh!

No, they made it so you can actually counter it. A free evade no matter what (even if you didn't get it just from runining over rocks) is way too good. An opponent should be able to counter the title to prevent tokens. As for palp, the truth is he's still good. And he made the cut at worlds.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yes, but if the Imperial base is below the other factions, then trouble starts.

Not sure how this follows from his comment. Juts means the other factions (mainly scum) need to be brought down.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Yes, but if the Imperial base is below the other factions, then trouble starts.

Right, it's just that I think the base of all factions is pretty balanced, and only a few things are better than the Imperial base. I may be wrong though.

1 minute ago, Ladrillito said:

Right, it's just that I think the base of all factions is pretty balanced, and only a few things are better than the Imperial base. I may be wrong though.

Agreed. I think imperials area ctually fairly close to rebel atm. Scum just has too much stuff above the power curve.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Not sure how this follows from his comment. Juts means the other factions (mainly scum) need to be brought down.

Fine. If it had been done all together to actually keep balance, everything would have been hunky dory. But it didn't.

1 minute ago, Ladrillito said:

Right, it's just that I think the base of all factions is pretty balanced, and only a few things are better than the Imperial base. I may be wrong though.

And if the other few things had been handled along with Palp and x7, there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Fine. If it had been done all together to actually keep balance, everything would have been hunky dory. But it didn't.

And if the other few things had been handled along with Palp and x7, there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

They DID nerf scum at the same time. Just not enough. I can all but guarantee more is coming. Just don't know when. The sooner the better.

6 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They DID nerf scum at the same time. Just not enough. I can all but guarantee more is coming. Just don't know when. The sooner the better.

Agreed. Doesn't mean I can't call the nerf poorly executed or consider this interim meta worse than it was before.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Agreed. Doesn't mean I can't call the nerf poorly executed or consider this interim meta worse than it was before.

I'm fine with considering the interim meta worse if you want (I'm not sure I agree, but that's not something I care about enough to argue). I still don't think ti was a poorly executed nerf for imperials. They just didn't do enough elsewhere.

5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm fine with considering the interim meta worse if you want (I'm not sure I agree, but that's not something I care about enough to argue). I still don't think ti was a poorly executed nerf for imperials. They just didn't do enough elsewhere.

It is poorly executed in the prospective of bringing balance to the game. The next FAQ you speak off (if done right) will bring balance, not this last one.

50 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

No, they made it so you can actually counter it. A free evade no matter what (even if you didn't get it just from runining over rocks) is way too good. An opponent should be able to counter the title to prevent tokens. As for palp, the truth is he's still good. And he made the cut at worlds.

Why you should be able to counter every token, is that a rule or something? Everybody seems to forget that x7 makes you drop your missiles and cannon slots and it makes your flying very predictable.

You can't blame people for playing the strongest ships, can you? Or do you mean to release new errata for each overplayed ship every year?

Why is it "way too good"? As I said before, Defenders were not top builds even at the time. Imperial, sure, but we're running out of decent builds.

Palpatine still good? Come on. One Decimator build made it barely, everybody else has stopped using him as he is now too overcosted for what he does.

14 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Why you should be able to counter every token, is that a rule or something? Everybody seems to forget that x7 makes you drop your missiles and cannon slots and it makes your flying very predictable.

You can't blame people for playing the strongest ships, can you? Or do you mean to release new errata for each overplayed ship every year?

Why is it "way too good"? As I said before, Defenders were not top builds even at the time. Imperial, sure, but we're running out of decent builds.

Palpatine still good? Come on. One Decimator build made it barely, everybody else has stopped using him as he is now too overcosted for what he does.

No one used missiles on tie defenders anyway, and losing the cannon was WELL worth a guaranteed evade token every single round no matter what.

I don't blame people at all for flying the strongest ships. I was flying x7 defenders myself. I flew mindlinked uboats for our regional. But that does NOT mean overpowered ships shouldn't be nerfed back in line with the rest of the game. It's not about "overplayed" ships. it's about ships that are so good you're handicapping yourself if you fly anything else. When an entire faction is defined by a single ship, that's a problem.

Defenders were basically the ONLY imperial build. And the only reason they weren't the top build was because paratanni was even more OP. If you look at meta-wing list archetypes from imperial veterans release until the nerf, Paratanni was number one, commonwealth defenders was #2, dengaroo was #3, triple defendres was #4. And while you say defenders were not a top build, commonwealth defenders won a system open. And a bunch more showed up in the cuts at the other pre-nerf opens. They didn't win more because paratanni was even better.

1 decimator build is a lot more palpatine in the cut than plenty of other cards had. And he's shown up more since then. First store championship reported in the results thread here had palpatine in the top 2 squads. Both on shuttles. One was even paired with 2 defenders. Another was won by kylo/palp rac + vader. People are still running him.

Edit: Oh, and don't forget vessery being in the top 4 and 2 more commonwealth in the top 8 at worlds last year. And a couple more defender lists in the top 16. Just because you didn't win worlds doesn't mean you aren't a top list.

58 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Defenders were basically the ONLY imperial build.

Lol, not even close. We just got the Upsilon shuttle. I made Chicago regionals with a new palp aces list. Defenders were keeping a few up, but it was not even close tp the only list.

11 minutes ago, Strikesback said:

Lol, not even close. We just got the Upsilon shuttle. I made Chicago regionals with a new palp aces list. Defenders were keeping a few up, but it was not even close tp the only list.

For the vast majority of the time between veterans and the nerf almost every list has a defender. Look at meta-wing. Even at that regional most of the imperial lists I see on list juggler had a defender in them. "Basically the only thing" doesn't literally mean there were 0 non-defender listen. But lists without defenders were far outnumbered by ones that had them

12 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It really wrecks one-dimensional lists that have fragile ships. It can also still feel unfair against apropriate lists if the player doesn't know how to avoid SLAM lanes. Personaly I believe it is fine, as aces being dominant is the most unhealthy state for the game, but the combination with Cluster Mines might be over the line, as they offer a lot more opportunities to trigger Sabine.

That is purely your personal preference in speaking out of you. But understandable, personally ace dominance is the most healthy state of the game. Naturally I am an ace player and enjoy playing against other aces most.
Though Sabine does not really just wreck one-dimensional lists, it makes taking any fragile ships at all problematic. simply because just taking Sabine and a bomb as insurrance is a cheap option which is effiicent enough against many lists and hyper efficient against aces.

Now I would have been in the boat of Sabine being fine before the wave of nerfs. Simply because I liked the "everything is op" approach to the balance of the game. Now with the general approach of reducing power levels? I guess sabine became a relict of a different game situation and meta and game design. Though it is not only Sabine, it is as well Latts (crew), Mindlink, Fenn Rau, TLTs, C3PO and Rebel Regen.

You could fix these things for example the following way: Sabine does only to large ships extra damage, Latts is removed from the game, Mindlink becomes unique, but applies to two ships for one point. TLTs lose the ability to modify their attacks, and C3PO + Rebel regen … I have no ******* clue, but doing this last seems fine. Maybe it is not needed to dealt with immediately, heavy firepower still deals with regen lists fine, so keep Fenn Rau at first untouched too, without a power Mindlink list he should fall off a little too.

And ****, I did it again, I wasted my precious time on pointless balance suggestions. Game is what it is. deal with it instead of ***** about it.

The biggest problem with Imperials right now is that Scum is a more attractive option. If Fenn Rau and the Jumpmaster didn't exist, more of the best players would have played Imperials at worlds. You can't get a solid read on the strength of Palp Aces when many of the best Imperial players have jumped ship to Scum. This is especially true if you are only looking at Worlds where nearly everyone goes mercenary and picks what they think is best.

8 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

The biggest problem with Imperials right now is that Scum is a more attractive option. If Fenn Rau and the Jumpmaster didn't exist, more of the best players would have played Imperials at worlds. You can't get a solid read on the strength of Palp Aces when many of the best Imperial players have jumped ship to Scum. This is especially true if you are only looking at Worlds where nearly everyone goes mercenary and picks what is best.

Minor correction.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

Minor correction.

Well actually his statement is more correct. We're all talking about what we think is best, and we're all picking lists based on what we think will do best for is against the opponents we think we are most likely to face.

I mean Justin Phua won with Dengar/Tel and if that's what was actually best then a bunch of people either deliberately flew something worse than best, or thought they were flying what was best.

47 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Well actually his statement is more correct. We're all talking about what we think is best, and we're all picking lists based on what we think will do best for is against the opponents we think we are most likely to face.

I mean Justin Phua won with Dengar/Tel and if that's what was actually best then a bunch of people either deliberately flew something worse than best, or thought they were flying what was best.

I get what you're saying, I really do. But I'll stand by my correction even without a beer in hand.

I believe my point is a bit more simplistic than yours, perhaps I have once again clouded my points with my own inability to communicate; it is a flaw, I'll gladly admit. Allow me to reiterate and attempt to clarify; I hereby unequivocally state that when anyone has a JK5 in their list, they statistically have, by far, selected the absolute best ship platform in in the game to put in heir list, trumping all others by a wide margin. Now I agree what sides you select and how you season your steak is up to you, but it's still steak, and yes you can choose really good baked chicken which is really quite OK, or ham; but everything else to choose from in this restaurant isn't even meat, it's more akin to tofo; which, personally, I can't stomach the stuff. Maybe I once again made a mess of it, oh well.

I really need some tea this morning....where is it?