Honestly:

Bombed used to be useless. Ordnance used to suck. Rebels had a hard time in Wave9. Defenders used to suck. Ints were hot (after autothrusters). Scum was trashy + sIGs and 4TLT

Nowaday, Sabine bombs are supposedly too good. Ordnance IS too good on large ships. And Imps have a hard time Wave10-post nerfs. Defenders were too good,a nd got nerfed to good. Interceptors are trash. (= Now scum is mathematically too efficient by miles.

Let's agree to never go back to either of these metas. While I liked Aces PS9-11, I did thing it was starting to be stale. Turret-wing 2 ship Largeship + ace, 2 Turret large ship was utter cancer. NEVER ever go back to Wave 4-6. I like the viability of large turrets right now. Han, Dash and RAC lists now all have weaknesses.
The least cancerous dominance imo was still 4TLT. Beatable. OP. But beatable.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

The least cancerous dominance imo was still 4TLT. Beatable. OP. But beatable.

Also quite possibly the single most boring list ever created. But beatable.

I don't get the fuss about Sabine bombs, it's one point of damage. Maybe I'm not bothered because it doesn't seem super prevalent in the events I've been too.

3 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

I don't get the fuss about Sabine bombs, it's one point of damage. Maybe I'm not bothered because it doesn't seem super prevalent in the events I've been too.

It's one guaranteed point of damage to a ship of the bombing player's choice.

Combined with the errata to cluster mines, it takes ASLAM Clusters from on average not killing soontir (2.25 average damage if all 3 mines hit), to having to roll sub average to not kill Fenn (4 damage on average if all 3 mines hit). It makes a single action significantly more damaging (not to mention, more flexible) than the vast majority of attacks.

4 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

I don't get the fuss about Sabine bombs, it's one point of damage. Maybe I'm not bothered because it doesn't seem super prevalent in the events I've been too.

It really wrecks one-dimensional lists that have fragile ships. It can also still feel unfair against apropriate lists if the player doesn't know how to avoid SLAM lanes. Personaly I believe it is fine, as aces being dominant is the most unhealthy state for the game, but the combination with Cluster Mines might be over the line, as they offer a lot more opportunities to trigger Sabine.

7 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It really wrecks one-dimensional lists that have fragile ships. It can also still feel unfair against apropriate lists if the player doesn't know how to avoid SLAM lanes. Personaly I believe it is fine, as aces being dominant is the most unhealthy state for the game, but the combination with Cluster Mines might be over the line, as they offer a lot more opportunities to trigger Sabine.

THing is though, it's not just 'one dimensional lists that have fragile aces' it wrecks.

A single Sabine cluster mine will on average take 1/4 of the hit points off a Decimator or Ghost, and a perfect roll can one-shot a Defender or T70.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

THing is though, it's not just 'one dimensional lists that have fragile aces' it wrecks.

A single Sabine cluster mine will on average take 1/4 of the hit points off a Decimator or Ghost, and a perfect roll can one-shot a Defender or T70.

No real Problem with that. Hitting a small base with all three tokens is very unlikely and requires massive missplays on your opponents side. A K-Wing can easily blow up in one turn by getting shot at, too.

2 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

No real Problem with that. Hitting a small base with all three tokens is very unlikely and requires massive missplays on your opponents side. A K-Wing can easily blow up in one turn by getting shot at, too.

In one TURN. Not one action. ANd you still have to predict where it will go well in order to do that, whereas the K Wing doesn't have to make any decisions without perfect information.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

In one TURN. Not one action.

Same difference. One action for which you need a specifice approach, space to SLAM into, and then roll well.

I don't want to defend Cluster Mines too much, though. Like I said, the combination of them with Sabine is likely to be over the line. Just saying they aren't the end of the world. I'd like a way for Sabine and Cluster Mines to be exclusive, like Sabine only giving her effect when your list has no Cluster Mines and otherwise just giving the Bomb slot, because Cluster Mines by themselves are fine and it would be a shame for Deathfire to not have that option and because Sabine with Conner Nets is fine as a way to keep the high mobility/damage mitigation ships in check.

Just remove the faction restriction on Sabine and reverse the errata on Cluster Mines I guess. I for one welcome our new mine laying overlords.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Honestly:

Bombed used to be useless. Ordnance used to suck. Rebels had a hard time in Wave9. Defenders used to suck. Ints were hot (after autothrusters). Scum was trashy + sIGs and 4TLT

Nowaday, Sabine bombs are supposedly too good. Ordnance IS too good on large ships. And Imps have a hard time Wave10-post nerfs. Defenders were too good,a nd got nerfed to good. Interceptors are trash. (= Now scum is mathematically too efficient by miles.

Let's agree to never go back to either of these metas. While I liked Aces PS9-11, I did thing it was starting to be stale. Turret-wing 2 ship Largeship + ace, 2 Turret large ship was utter cancer. NEVER ever go back to Wave 4-6. I like the viability of large turrets right now. Han, Dash and RAC lists now all have weaknesses.
The least cancerous dominance imo was still 4TLT. Beatable. OP. But beatable.

Defenders were TOO good? Based on what? Certainly not tournament success. Nor was Palpatine.

34 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

I don't get the fuss about Sabine bombs, it's one point of damage. Maybe I'm not bothered because it doesn't seem super prevalent in the events I've been too.

You would be 100% if Sabine was a discard effect (which I would probably agree is a decent change). She is one point of damage every turn that a bomb hits.

2 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Defenders were TOO good? Based on what? Certainly not tournament success. Nor was Palpatine.

You don't remember Commonwealth Defenders?

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Defenders were TOO good? Based on what? Certainly not tournament success. Nor was Palpatine.

Probably based on their auto-include in imperial lists and their capability to compete with the clearly-too-good JumpMasters.

16 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

You would be 100% if Sabine was a discard effect (which I would probably agree is a decent change). She is one point of damage every turn that a bomb hits.

It's also one point of damage on a ship of your opponent's choosing. To me that's the most frustrating thing about Sabine: you run over a mine with a healthy ship, then Sabine deals 1 damage to a low hp thing nearby.

Even without discard on use, I feel Sabine would be more reasonable if she had to target a ship already affected by the bomb token.

4 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Defenders were TOO good? Based on what?

Based on math. x7 Defenders were the final nail in the coffin of two attack dice ships. They were calculated to be the most efficient ship even before you factored in the white K-Turn dial. They had so good mitigation (as it couldn't be shut down with blocking) that 2 dice with Crack Shot couldn't cut it anymore. Major Juggler was able to tell all of that way ahead of Imperial Veterans release and was right, thats how broken they were.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

You would be 100% if Sabine was a discard effect (which I would probably agree is a decent change). She is one point of damage every turn that a bomb hits.

Most bombs are one shot, so it's pretty much self policing in that sense

25 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

Most bombs are one shot, so it's pretty much self policing in that sense

Yes, but when you have Cluster Mines, who basically count as a two dice attack the Defender can't roll against for each of it's templates, things start to get a little iffy. Add to that most Bomber lists contain Extra Munitions, meaning two bombs, which again makes Cluster Mines more interesting. When you have three K-Wings (who usually take two different bombs and extra munitions) with all that and Sabine, that's potientally 24 bomb tokens that Sabine can add a damage to. True, it's once a turn, but that just means you ration when bombs are dropped.

26 minutes ago, Deadfool said:

Most bombs are one shot, so it's pretty much self policing in that sense

Well actually, most bombs are two-shot because you don't see them without Extra Munitions.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Based on math. x7 Defenders were the final nail in the coffin of two attack dice ships. They were calculated to be the most efficient ship even before you factored in the white K-Turn dial. They had so good mitigation (as it couldn't be shut down with blocking) that 2 dice with Crack Shot couldn't cut it anymore. Major Juggler was able to tell all of that way ahead of Imperial Veterans release and was right, thats how broken they were.

So if they were that good, how come they weren't at the top in tournaments? Your math doesn't add up.

And for auto include I might add that all factions have some ships that see more play. Should they be nerfed because of that too?

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So if they were that good, how come they weren't at the top in tournaments? Your math doesn't add up.

And for auto include I might add that all factions have some ships that see more play. Should they be nerfed because of that too?

Apart from all the times they were, you mean?

20 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So if they were that good, how come they weren't at the top in tournaments? Your math doesn't add up.

And for auto include I might add that all factions have some ships that see more play. Should they be nerfed because of that too?

According to meta-wing, between the release of imperial veterans and the great nerfing, commonwealth defenders was the number 2 archetype. Triple defenders was number 4 (number 1 was paratanni, #3 was dengaroo). Those 4 lists each were used ~200 times.

The next imperial archetype shows up at the #11 slot with only 53 uses, and still has palp and a defender just using an interceptor for the third ship instead of another defender.

Then at 14th you have....2 defenders with omega leader.

Next is a decimator with a defender

Note the theme here. Defenders didn't just see MORE play. They were in almost every single imperial list that did well, usually with more than 1 defender, and frequently with palp as well. Similar to the jumpmaster now as a matter of fact...

4 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It really wrecks one-dimensional lists that have fragile ships. It can also still feel unfair against apropriate lists if the player doesn't know how to avoid SLAM lanes. Personaly I believe it is fine, as aces being dominant is the most unhealthy state for the game, but the combination with Cluster Mines might be over the line, as they offer a lot more opportunities to trigger Sabine.

I'd say turrets being dominant is far more unhealthy, but that's me.

Repeat after me: 2 ship large turret domination sucks for the game. Never return to that level of eminent unbalance.

13 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Honestly:

Bombed used to be useless. Ordnance used to suck. Rebels had a hard time in Wave9. Defenders used to suck. Ints were hot (after autothrusters). Scum was trashy + sIGs and 4TLT

Nowaday, Sabine bombs are supposedly too good. Ordnance IS too good on large ships. And Imps have a hard time Wave10-post nerfs. Defenders were too good,a nd got nerfed to good. Interceptors are trash. (= Now scum is mathematically too efficient by miles.

Let's agree to never go back to either of these metas. While I liked Aces PS9-11, I did thing it was starting to be stale. Turret-wing 2 ship Largeship + ace, 2 Turret large ship was utter cancer. NEVER ever go back to Wave 4-6. I like the viability of large turrets right now. Han, Dash and RAC lists now all have weaknesses.
The least cancerous dominance imo was still 4TLT. Beatable. OP. But beatable.

Right on Target dude!!