45 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They WERE able to adapt a few lists and perform reasonably well, as a few lists actually made the cuts.

Still underpreforming when compared to previous performance and compared to the other factions. How is that reasonable? Compare that to Manaroo. Originally, I would have said she was hit harder by the nerf than x7 and Palp, and yet she still saw consistent play. Heck, the top 16 of worlds were practically flooded with Fangaroo lists, some who went on to top 8, further than the one Imp list that made the cut. People had nearly two months from the announcement of the FAQ to Worlds. Some took that time and adapted fangaroo to work well.

45 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They were the ONLY things being flown for imperial. Because they were THAT MUCH better than everything else in the faction. It wasn't that everything else was crap. Palp and x7 defenders were just too far above the power curve.

And the rest of the Imperial faction has yet to truly prove it is capable of competing at high level without them. Again, there seems to be this sentiment that no one tried something new for Empire during this time. That is false. And if someone came across something worthwhile, don't you think they would have done something with it to get away from the same ol' same ol'?

56 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Rebels were the only ones not hit by the "Great Nerfing"

I am aware. I used them to show that the number of lists from a certain faction in a tournament isn't what determines what makes the cut. There could be one of any faction in a tournament and could still rise to the top of the rankings if it is solidly built and skillfully flown.

59 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I am. I flew imperials for several of my vassal league matches (in the core worlds, so I was up against skilled opponents) and won my last (admittedly small, but played against very good opponents) Store tournament with them. I plan to take em to store championships too.

And I applaud that. I wish you luck in your future endevours. And I don't mean that to sound facetious. I _want_ you to prove me wrong. But, as I have explained before, I don't think Store Championships are conclusive enough evidence due to their variables. If you or someone else can take Imps to top 4 in Nationals or some other premier event, I'll be well and truly shut up. Until then, I'm not going to say everything is fine because there might be a Imperial combo someone hasn't thought up yet, or because someone is doing well in their circle. Hope is good to have, but it doesn't disprove historical data. Results do.

33 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

@SabineKey I might be wholesomely biased to Imperial, but I'd have to say, 3 x7 defenders pre-nerf were extremely strong, and the original Palp Aces Palp Soontir Vader was a serious menace. It might have never gotten a worlds win, but it showed up in HUGE numbers among all tournaments.
Now I wish x7 still wasn't an action, but I think unnerfing Palp would help Aces and other random lists more. And retracting a partial nerf on x7 and fully unnerfing Palp would likely bring back similarly dominant Palp Aces and Palp Commonwealth Defenders. Aces is easier to give help to nowadays as spike damage is really popular in this meta.

The point behind the nerf was noble, even if it's results were undesirable. While I don't think Palp and x7 needed it, I am willing to accept others feel differently. As such, the compromise of partially un-nerfing (x7 not an action, like you said) or reworking the nerf (Old Palp with a range restriction) could be acceptable.

Manaroo still gets some top level play. I just want Imps to be able to do the same.

17 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The point behind the nerf was noble, even if it's results were undesirable. While I don't think Palp and x7 needed it, I am willing to accept others feel differently. As such, the compromise of partially un-nerfing (x7 not an action, like you said) or reworking the nerf (Old Palp with a range restriction) could be acceptable.

Manaroo still gets some top level play. I just want Imps to be able to do the same.

I guess its also worth it to note that back in Wave8-9 when Palp Aces and Jumps were rampant Rebels were quite low in population. Though, i dont think as low as Imperials now. They still had Dash Ghost, 2 Ghosts and Miranda TLT lists, and Sabine crew was actually released then, just, no one had gotten around to fully exploring it.

The pendulum swings. Attanni though is overbearing. And the Jumps are seriously a mess of super efficiency.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I guess its also worth it to note that back in Wave8-9 when Palp Aces and Jumps were rampant Rebels were quite low in population. Though, i dont think as low as Imperials now. They still had Dash Ghost, 2 Ghosts and Miranda TLT lists, and Sabine crew was actually released then, just, no one had gotten around to fully exploring it.

The pendulum swings. Attanni though is overbearing. And the Jumps are seriously a mess of super efficiency.

Plus, while low in number, Rebels still managed to do well at Worlds. Despite some of the slumps Rebels have had (and they have had some), they always seem to rally to give a good showing there.

4 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

We disagree that it was a stupid, bad nerf. Palp is still a playable and very usable card, but he's no longer so powerful that he has to be in almost every competitive imperial list.

Actually he still was in only imperial list that made the cut at worlds … not because he is that good mind you, but because the decimator had the space anyway and Kylo Ren had a useful interaction with him.

Besides, Palp was becoming unplayable before the nerf already, especially with aces, but even the common wealth defenders started to loose ground against simple triple defenders … which required two imperial veteran boxes (and two defender expansions for those among us who can not stand having two Ryads on the table ;-)) … meanwhile everyone got Palpatine already at hand.

Besides, unnerfing x7 would bring the defenders most likely back, but the Palp Aces are still dead even with the return of old Palpatine. Though you might see Palp more with strikers like in Steka's worlds list with Countdown, Sabbac and OL.

Quote

Your dismissal of Tournament data has me doubting your understanding of the game.

I'm not dismissing the data. I take it with a dose of healthy scepticism. Statistics are notoriously easy to misinterpret, and draw incorrect conclusions from, especially with something like incomplete tournament results. Even with complete data, there's a huge number of factors that could skew those results one way or the other that we might not be privy to.

As to the second part. **** you

Quote

Actual numbers of lists from each individual faction actually doesn't mean too much.

Of course it does. If less people rock up with Imperials, Imperials are just generally going to make up a lesser proportion of the top cut (outliers are to be expected though). The point I was making is, whilst the worlds results are useful for some general observations, we don't even know some basic information like the faction breakdown.

19 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Still underpreforming when compared to previous performance and compared to the other factions. How is that reasonable? Compare that to Manaroo. Originally, I would have said she was hit harder by the nerf than x7 and Palp, and yet she still saw consistent play. Heck, the top 16 of worlds were practically flooded with Fangaroo lists, some who went on to top 8, further than the one Imp list that made the cut. People had nearly two months from the announcement of the FAQ to Worlds. Some took that time and adapted fangaroo to work well.

I don't disagree that imperials are underperforming compared to the others. I just disagree that they're completely unplayable like most people seem to think. Also, IMO the problem isn't imperials. It's the other factions. I think imperials are actually fairly well balanced as a faction right now, the problem is that rebels and scum both have things ABOVE the power curve.

19 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And the rest of the Imperial faction has yet to truly prove it is capable of competing at high level without them. Again, there seems to be this sentiment that no one tried something new for Empire during this time. That is false. And if someone came across something worthwhile, don't you think they would have done something with it to get away from the same ol' same ol'?

Depends if they came up with something before the system opens or worlds, and if someone DID come up with something before those events, if they were able to GO to them. Once again, there's been plenty of imperials so far in store championships. While they may be "lesser" tournaments in your eyes, they show people ARE trying out imperials and having some success with them atm

19 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

If you or someone else can take Imps to top 4 in Nationals or some other premier event, I'll be well and truly shut up. Until then, I'm not going to say everything is fine because there might be a Imperial combo someone hasn't thought up yet, or because someone is doing well in their circle.

Sadly it won't be me since I can't make it to nationals this year. Hopefully next year I'll actuallyg et to travel to one of the big tournaments.

50 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

At @VanderLegion re SabineKey. Vander you may see anecdotal evidence, but don't be the one to dismiss data. People who dismiss data cannot be reasoned with. They will hold onto their opinion long past their expiration date for conversation. This happened in Armada, and the result was the least diverse meta in the history of the game.

I'm not just using anecdotal evidence. I've pointed out "data" of store championships multiple times. And that imperials have shown up in the cut at big events, just not a bunch of times. But at least they aren't completely non-existent. I also haven't argued that nothing in the meta needs to change. I just disagree with people saying that imperials need a change.

50 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Now, 1. By your statement: A few lists made it, however if too few lists make it, its still a problem. See, if in a top32 only 3 people bring Imperials at all, that's a problem of the perception of Imperials being widespread as not competitive. This type of perception is not randomly made up over night but a combination of seeing people fail in games over and over again at local events. It doesn't matter if one player makes the top4 from that group of 3. There's still an issue of skill floor playability.

Perception does matter. It took whisper like a year to show back up in the meta after the nerf, despite the fact that she was still really good.

50 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

2. If you say there are a few lists, the onus is on you to provide those lists. If not in structured data via ListJuggler, than at least the simple explanation of what those lists were (3 Defenders, some 4ship semi ace with OL, etc). You also haughtily boast about your own successes, while not even contributing what your list is to show the community a concrete example of what you think is viable. From there, we can also determine whether your successes are based on the list or perhaps a skill-disparity between you and your common opponents.

Going through list juggler results, taking only store championships that had enough people to go to a top cut, I got 10 tournaments. 7 were won by scum, 3 by imperials. 2 had imperial lists as the runner up, and 8 imperial lists made top 4 (not counting the ones that made runner up or winner). So going by those tournaments for this season actually puts imperials almost exactly where they should be at balance-wise, with ~1/3 victories and ~1/3 top 8 placements (10 tournaments, 20 total top 4 players not counting winners/runners up). Rebels seem to have done less successfully so far in championships with cuts as far as wins go. I didn't track runner ups/top 4 for the other factions.

Which again goes back to showing that the problem isn't imperials. It's scum (and as far as many of the imperial ships are concerned, sabine + advanced slam bombs).

From the above, one win was chiraneau/vader (with palp on chirpy), the other two were quickdraw, vessery, pure sabacc.

Runner ups were:

Vessery/Ryad/Glaive
Quickdraw/Backdraft/Sabacc
Vessery/Quickdraw/Omega Leader

Top 4s were:

Vessery/Ryad/Scimitar
Vessery/Maarek (Defender)/Zeta Leader
Alozen/Tomax/Backdraft
Vessery/Ryad/Countdown
SnapTac Rymer/Omega Spec/Omega Spec
Vessery/Quickdraw/Omega Leader
Vessery/Backdraft/Vader
Stridan/3x Procket Sienar test pilot

For myself, the list I"ve been flying is:
Quickdraw - Expertise, FCS, Sensor Cluster, Title, LWF
Backdraft - Expertise, FCS, Sensor Cluster, Title, LWF
Pure Sabacc - Title, LWF, Adaptability

I've more recently changed it up to VI on backdraft and pure sabacc and targeting synchronizer on backdraft to try that out instead.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Plus, while low in number, Rebels still managed to do well at Worlds. Despite some of the slumps Rebels have had (and they have had some), they always seem to rally to give a good showing there.

To be fair, the thing keeping rebels down last year was almost overwhelmingly deadeye torp scouts, which got nerfed right before worlds.

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually he still was in only imperial list that made the cut at worlds … not because he is that good mind you, but because the decimator had the space anyway and Kylo Ren had a useful interaction with him.

If he has a good interaction with kylo, that makes him a good card to go in a list with kylo. Again, making him a useful card and not at all dead and buried like people claim.

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Besides, Palp was becoming unplayable before the nerf already, especially with aces, but even the common wealth defenders started to loose ground against simple triple defenders … which required two imperial veteran boxes (and two defender expansions for those among us who can not stand having two Ryads on the table ;-)) … meanwhile everyone got Palpatine already at hand.

Besides, unnerfing x7 would bring the defenders most likely back, but the Palp Aces are still dead even with the return of old Palpatine. Though you might see Palp more with strikers like in Steka's worlds list with Countdown, Sabbac and OL.

There's no need to "bring defenders back". Defenders are still around, they just aren't the only non-palp ship being flown by imperials anymore. Vessery and ryad are still making plenty of showings at store champs currently.

I don't think 'most' people think imperials are unplayable, especially considering how many people are playing them!

A few people want to isolate the sharpest end of the sharpest tournament is the world, where they are correct that imperial lists fell short.

11 hours ago, Fuzzywookie said:

Back in my day. We played x-wing minis made out of rocks and sticks. And we liked it.

We only had coal in my town. Coal for ships, coal for dice, coal for asteroids and coal for dinner. Loved it.

I think it is important to consider what the nerfs are aiming for.

In my book, the role of nerfs is to trim the tops of the meta, to bring the ones that got too strong and dominant down to level of the general population. By this we aim to create a diverse meta where as many ships as possible are playable and we have at least three, preferably more archetypes that are equally strong or at least builds a rock/paper/scissors(/lizard/spock) meta.

The opposites of this is power creep; We need stronger and stronger ships and the gap against old ships becomes too large and can no longer be played competitively.

Now we are in the era of the Mindlink/Jumpmasters. Those pieces are now the tops that really stick out on the meta hedge. As such, they need either a nerf or a strong counter to be released in the next wave. There are other things that stick out as well like Biggs and perhaps Sabine that perhaps needs looking into.

On 24.5.2017 at 10:15 AM, VanderLegion said:

Vessery and ryad are still making plenty of showings at store champs currently.

So do T-65 and T-70 X-Wings
Besides, the interaction with Kylo Ren is niche case in a list which can basically not use anything else. Your store championship datapoints are worthless. You can argue that you would like newer data points than the just recent worlds, but you can't argue that store champ results are more valid, because they are 10 days or so newer. That is a silly claim to make. We just had words this month, a single x7 vessery made it 7-2 and actually did not make the cut. Not a single Palp Aces list to be seen either. That's has been just two weekends ago.

Meanwhile the store tournament on the worlds weekend in my town was won with a 4 x-wing list. ;-)

What you can argue is that you would like to see the meta develop further, especially with new ships coming out. Afterall the rise of the uboots and palp aces meta turned into a fall before the heavy nerfs even hit the game. So maybe Jeff Berling comes up with some amazing new interactions and brings back imperial aces, but at least for now the data would not support such a prediction.

I can argue store champs are more valid because they're the 'real' metagame of x-wing, in the sense that they're experienced by far more players of the game (and customers of FFG) than experience the day two Worlds metagame.

16 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I can argue store champs are more valid because they're the 'real' metagame of x-wing, in the sense that they're experienced by far more players of the game (and customers of FFG) than experience the day two Worlds metagame.

You can make that claim. But you would not have a leg with it, at least not in a discussion about balance, because you can literally win with 4 HWKs at store championships and the experience is formed mostly by individual skill, individual perception and public opinion and local taste. So you get information about the state of the game for the general player base, but those data points are worthless for balance purpose.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

You can make that claim. But you would not have a leg with it, at least not in a discussion about balance, because you can literally win with 4 HWKs at store championships and the experience is formed mostly by individual skill, individual perception and public opinion and local taste. So you get information about the state of the game for the general player base, but those data points are worthless for balance purpose.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. I gotcha.

The bottom line is I think FFG care more about Store Champ results than they do Worlds results, and I don't think they're necessarily wrong to do so.

9 hours ago, CRCL said:

I'm not dismissing the data. I take it with a dose of healthy scepticism. Statistics are notoriously easy to misinterpret, and draw incorrect conclusions from, especially with something like incomplete tournament results. Even with complete data, there's a huge number of factors that could skew those results one way or the other that we might not be privy to.

As to the second part. **** you

Of course it does. If less people rock up with Imperials, Imperials are just generally going to make up a lesser proportion of the top cut (outliers are to be expected though). The point I was making is, whilst the worlds results are useful for some general observations, we don't even know some basic information like the faction breakdown.

We still have the top cut, where we see what and who made it. How is that hard to interpret? I've already shown how the representative number of a faction doesn't stop a solid list rising to the top. That no Imperial list made it is highly suggestive. You seem to be as guilty of misinterpreting the data as you seem to think I am.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I don't disagree that imperials are underperforming compared to the others. I just disagree that they're completely unplayable like most people seem to think. Also, IMO the problem isn't imperials. It's the other factions. I think imperials are actually fairly well balanced as a faction right now, the problem is that rebels and scum both have things ABOVE the power curve.

Everything is playable at some level, in some context. That doesn't make things alright. In the light of events that are suppose to present the best players X-Wing has to offer, Imperials have come up short. Not completely unplayable, but in a bad enough way that people saying they are fine and doing well currently grinds my gears. The old data hasn't been disproven.

Also, the opinion that the Imps are balanced and the other factions are OP doesn't actually help anything until something is actually done about that. Until then, the fact that the Empire is so "balanced" is as useful as a screendoor on a sub.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Depends if they came up with something before the system opens or worlds, and if someone DID come up with something before those events, if they were able to GO to them. Once again, there's been plenty of imperials so far in store championships. While they may be "lesser" tournaments in your eyes, they show people ARE trying out imperials and having some success with them atm

Manaroo players managed it. Why not Imperial players?

I have said plenty of times that Store Championships are good testing grounds for lists. And I'm not out and out dismissing those results, but you have to realize that's akin to comparing a backyard or high school football game to the pros. Just because one team is dominating at their level doesn't mean they can hang with the pros. And yes, there is a possibility that they can, but until they do, it is all just a theory.

I flew Imps at a recent Store Championship. The unique /sf's and OL. Lots of fun. Almost made the cut, which I'll readily admit user error was a part of me missing it. Even with that experience, I am still skeptical of the Empire's chances in the current meta.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Sadly it won't be me since I can't make it to nationals this year. Hopefully next year I'll actuallyg et to travel to one of the big tournaments.

Understandable. Heh, real life does tend to be quite demanding at times.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

To be fair, the thing keeping rebels down last year was almost overwhelmingly deadeye torp scouts, which got nerfed right before worlds.

True, but they still managed to rally quickly. Part of the game is being able to adapt to the meta. Imperial attempts have some promise, but not yet fully proven.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Your store championship datapoints are worthless. You can argue that you would like newer data points than the just recent worlds, but you can't argue that store champ results are more valid, because they 10 days or so newer.

Store championships are the first step of the competitive track. They aren't worthless data. And even if they're smaller events than worlds, people will travel to store championships that can't GO to worlds, and more people will travel further to go to store championships than they will random kit tournaments. They're also the only data we can get on the state or evolution of the meta until gencon.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

That is a silly claim to make. We just had words this month, a single x7 vessery made it 7-2 and actually did not make the cut. Not a single Palp Aces list to be seen either. That's has been just two weekends ago.

And 5 more went 6-3. Palp aces have been out of the meta for a long time now, so...no surprise there? Imperials CAN fly other archetypes (as evidenced by the ones that DID make day 2 wihtout flying palp aces.)

51 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That no Imperial list made it is highly suggestive.

Except, ya know, the one that did...

51 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Everything is playable at some level, in some context.

The TIE Punisher would like a word with you (competitively at least)

51 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That doesn't make things alright. In the light of events that are suppose to present the best players X-Wing has to offer, Imperials have come up short. Not completely unplayable, but in a bad enough way that people saying they are fine and doing well currently grinds my gears. The old data hasn't been disproven.

Also, the opinion that the Imps are balanced and the other factions are OP doesn't actually help anything until something is actually done about that. Until then, the fact that the Empire is so "balanced" is as useful as a screendoor on a sub.

May not help anything, but maybe people could quit b****ing about imperials and ask for a change where it's actually needed instead of incessantly whining about the palp nerf (which is what kicked off this whole current debate)

51 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Manaroo players managed it. Why not Imperial players?

Manaroo players kept playing the same lists they already were. They just had to keep manaroo a bit closer.

51 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

True, but they still managed to rally quickly. Part of the game is being able to adapt to the meta. Imperial attempts have some promise, but not yet fully proven.

Similar to manaroo above, once deadeye was nerfed most of rebel's previous options became a lot more viable again, or variations thereof. Imperials have been looking for completely new options to replace the palp + 2 (or triple defender) meta that was all they had previously.

9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Except, ya know, the one that did...

Didn't make it into top 8.

10 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The TIE Punisher would like a word with you (competitively at least)

I did mention context. I understand they are seeing use in Epic play. Point is, saying because something works in one case doesn't invalidate their lack of ability to compete in another.

12 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

May not help anything, but maybe people could quit b****ing about imperials and ask for a change where it's actually needed instead of incessantly whining about the palp nerf (which is what kicked off this whole current debate)

So, b**** about something else and be told that's not the actual problem? Cause that is happening. I've fought against that. No matter what, there is going to be complaining. At least altering the nerfs to Palp and x7 might alleviate some of the problems without adding to the complaint pool from fans of stuff like Mindlink or bombing K-wings. Simple solutions aren't necessary best, but they have a charm to them.

Plus, you still have people who think the nerfs were unnecessary. I think the nerfs were too much. Current arguments haven't changed that stance. Why should something this harmful be considered okay?

18 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Manaroo players kept playing the same lists they already were. They just had to keep manaroo a bit closer.

Not necessarily. Most of the Fangaroo lists I was aware of kept Manny at a distance. The Fangaroo lists reported at Worlds were adjusted to fly as blockers. Modification was done. And, if the Emperor and x7 were still as good against the meta as you say, people should have been able to make similar adjustments in the same amount of time, but they didn't make it past top 16, which is fair, but not healthy.

22 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Similar to manaroo above, once deadeye was nerfed most of rebel's previous options became a lot more viable again, or variations thereof. Imperials have been looking for completely new options to replace the palp + 2 (or triple defender) meta that was all they had previously.

And the fact that they couldn't doesn't raise red flags for you? Again, you are assuming that no one was trying anything new before the FAQ was announced for Imps, which is wrong. People were trying the /sf, the TIE/D, Bombers, alternate aces lists, but nothing popped up to take it to the top 8, let alone all the way. You know what did pop up in top 16? A Whipser/Deci list. An old archetype given a few new tricks. Still didn't make it past top 16.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Didn't make it into top 8.

You didn't say that int he original post though, you just said the cut.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Not necessarily. Most of the Fangaroo lists I was aware of kept Manny at a distance. The Fangaroo lists reported at Worlds were adjusted to fly as blockers. Modification was done. And, if the Emperor and x7 were still as good against the meta as you say, people should have been able to make similar adjustments in the same amount of time, but they didn't make it past top 16, which is fair, but not healthy.

I haven't been saying palp and x7 are good against the meta in anything like the form they were before. I've said palp was still playable, but not in the same form (since he's mostly used with kylo now) and x7 defenders are still showing up (but not in the form of commmonwealth defenders anymore). I've been arguing that imperials actually have more than just those 2 cards to pick from. Creating brand new lists that may or may not contain components from commonwealth defenders is a different situation than changing the upgrades on manaroo and keeping her close instead of flying her away. Hell, paratanni didn't even have to change upgrades, just (possibly) change how they flew manaroo.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And the fact that they couldn't doesn't raise red flags for you? Again, you are assuming that no one was trying anything new before the FAQ was announced for Imps, which is wrong. People were trying the /sf, the TIE/D, Bombers, alternate aces lists, but nothing popped up to take it to the top 8, let alone all the way. You know what did pop up in top 16? A Whipser/Deci list. An old archetype given a few new tricks. Still didn't make it past top 16.

Not making it past the top 16 doesn't bother me. Making it to the top 16 is plenty of accomplishment on its own. At that point, you're playing against the best people in the world, and a single mistake could cost you a game (I haven't seen the match to know how it went). Three ship imperial seems to be becoming a thing again lately, just not the traditional triple aces from the past. Quickdraw is in a lot of lists. Vessery is common. Variations of pure sabacc, omega leader, etc. And again, store champs are the only place we can actually look to see any innovations or potential changes in the meta until gencon, where imperials have been doing fine at about 1/3 of the results in winning/top cuts.

15 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You didn't say that int he original post though, you just said the cut.

Considering that's been my point the whole time, you'll have to forgive a miss worded retort.

15 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I haven't been saying palp and x7 are good against the meta in anything like the form they were before. I've said palp was still playable, but not in the same form (since he's mostly used with kylo now) and x7 defenders are still showing up (but not in the form of commmonwealth defenders anymore). I've been arguing that imperials actually have more than just those 2 cards to pick from. Creating brand new lists that may or may not contain components from commonwealth defenders is a different situation than changing the upgrades on manaroo and keeping her close instead of flying her away. Hell, paratanni didn't even have to change upgrades, just (possibly) change how they flew manaroo.

So, Imperials got shafted in their old builds where as only one Scum list was, and the Imperials couldn't come up with something new for them, even though Scum did. Still not seeing how that means the Empire is fine and people shouldn't be worried or complain about their state.

16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Not making it past the top 16 doesn't bother me. Making it to the top 16 is plenty of accomplishment on its own. At that point, you're playing against the best people in the world, and a single mistake could cost you a game (I haven't seen the match to know how it went). Three ship imperial seems to be becoming a thing again lately, just not the traditional triple aces from the past. Quickdraw is in a lot of lists. Vessery is common. Variations of pure sabacc, omega leader, etc. And again, store champs are the only place we can actually look to see any innovations or potential changes in the meta until gencon, where imperials have been doing fine at about 1/3 of the results in winning/top cuts.

And I'm happy for you, but I don't agree. I think for things to be called good and balanced, all three factions should be in top 8, if not top 4. Why should your opinion on the subject be worth more than mine? And why should your interpretation of how the Empire is doing rule over what people can complain about or not? And this isn't just about worlds. Those System Opens also confirm the Empire doesn't have the pieces to adapt.

Again, I'm not discounting Store Champ results. They show promise and I hope that goes all the way. Still doesn't disprove the conclusion that the Empire is in trouble at top level play, which is supported by results. Like I said, once Empire can be shown competing at top level, I'll be happily proven wrong.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So, Imperials got shafted in their old builds where as only one Scum list was, and the Imperials couldn't come up with something new for them, even though Scum did. Still not seeing how that means the Empire is fine and people shouldn't be worried or complain about their state.

Scum didn't really come up with anything new. They pretty much kept flying the same lists with (possibly) minor changes. Some different upgrades on manaroo. Or a contracted scout instead of manaroo. The scum nerfs didn't hit them as hard as the imperial ones, because the scum nerfs basically targeted dengaroo, which had already lost favor compared to paratanni. Didn't touch triple u-boats, or rau boats. Had some effect on paratanni and old fennaroo, but not as much as palp/x7 did to commonwealth defenders.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Scum didn't really come up with anything new. They pretty much kept flying the same lists with (possibly) minor changes. Some different upgrades on manaroo. Or a contracted scout instead of manaroo. The scum nerfs didn't hit them as hard as the imperial ones, because the scum nerfs basically targeted dengaroo, which had already lost favor compared to paratanni. Didn't touch triple u-boats, or rau boats. Had some effect on paratanni and old fennaroo, but not as much as palp/x7 did to commonwealth defenders.

See, now we are straying into what is and isn't a new list. Technically, the Imperial list that made top 16 at Worlds wasn't a new list. Whisper/RAC is an old classic. It also had minor changes. Plus, one of the minor changes was adding in one of the cards that was suppose to be nerfed, meaning the goal to get more non-Palp lists competitive failed.

And the fact that the Empire couldn't get high enough with simple "minor changes" is still the point. Why couldn't Commonwealth Defenders with Hux instead of Palp not make it? Why couldn't subbing in an /sf in a triple Defender list get higher? Why couldn't the lists people were testing before the FAQ was even announced not keep the Empire in the running? This is all highly suggestive to the point I've been making this whole time. And until you can provide data from similar sources, what you are saying is more theorical than what I'm saying.

21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

See, now we are straying into what is and isn't a new list. Technically, the Imperial list that made top 16 at Worlds wasn't a new list. Whisper/RAC is an old classic. It also had minor changes. Plus, one of the minor changes was adding in one of the cards that was suppose to be nerfed, meaning the goal to get more non-Palp lists competitive failed.

And the fact that the Empire couldn't get high enough with simple "minor changes" is still the point. Why couldn't Commonwealth Defenders with Hux instead of Palp not make it? Why couldn't subbing in an /sf in a triple Defender list get higher? Why couldn't the lists people were testing before the FAQ was even announced not keep the Empire in the running? This is all highly suggestive to the point I've been making this whole time. And until you can provide data from similar sources, what you are saying is more theorical than what I'm saying.

Store championship results aren't "theoretical"

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Store championship results aren't "theoretical"

But don't have the weight of System Opens and World results.

Just now, SabineKey said:

But don't have the weight of System Opens and World results.

Perhaps, but they also give us a lot MORE data than system opens and worlds do.