6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Rebs and Imps are pretty well defined in what they should and should not have. Which means S&V is the "try anything" faction, because they have no "political/military" parameters associated with them. Unfortunately, these S&V experiments have created a wild card faction that is uninhibited by the need to be "Rebel" or "Imperial" and are thus now overpowered.

2

HAHHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAAA

Yeah... since when does this game do ANY gamemechanics inspired by lore?

Where are the overwhelming number of imperial ships? Not just TIE swarms, but any ships. Strength in numbers. Where is the Imperial SLAM? Where is the Bomber as a capable ordnance carrier? Where is the terrifying TIE Punisher? Where is the TIE advanced that moves like an Interceptor, and hits like a truck? Where are the imperial "Glass cannon" ships, that can actually perform as cannons, and are not just made of glass?
...
WHERE IN GOD'S NAME IS THE REAR ARC ON THE LAMBDA?!

No, my friend, this game does not care about the lore, or what is defined in it. This game has Rebels stealing technology that does not exist, and pirates operating better quality ships than the most elite pilots of the Empire.

Without needless Palpatine nerf recent patch would be perfect. Unfortunately Palp nerf is infuriating.

2 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Without needless Palpatine nerf recent patch would be perfect. Unfortunately Palp nerf is infuriating.

The endless whining about the palpatine nerf demostrates perfectly why there aren't more imperials showing up in tournaments (bfeore store champs at least). People seem to think the faction is incapable of flying anything without the crutch of a free die change once per round whenever it suits you best...

Palpatine needed to be nerfed, and he's still good post-nerf. Give it a rest.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

The endless whining about the palpatine nerf demostrates perfectly why there aren't more imperials showing up in tournaments (bfeore store champs at least). People seem to think the faction is incapable of flying anything without the crutch of a free die change once per round whenever it suits you best...

Palpatine needed to be nerfed, and he's still good post-nerf. Give it a rest.

Because all top level players are lazy, and none of them has any imagination. That's how you get to the top, in case you didn't know. There are countless Tier 1 Imperial lists, but the thing is everyone is just too **** lazy to figure them out. Without an exception.

Just now, RufusDaMan said:

Because all top level players are lazy, and none of them has any imagination. That's how you get to the top, in case you didn't know. There are countless Tier 1 Imperial lists, but the thing is everyone is just too **** lazy to figure them out. Without an exception.

No. Mostly just the people that won't stop b****ing about it. Several store champs have already been won by imperials, so clearly it's not everyone.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

No. Mostly just the people that won't stop b****ing about it. Several store champs have already been won by imperials, so clearly it's not everyone.

And as we all know, store championships are an actual representation of a competitive scene.
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Man... I take Punishers and Bomber Aces to Store Championships. Of course people can win there.

The problem is, there is currently no imperial list that can reliably answer the threat of the top dogs of Scum and Rebels in a competitive scene when the opposing players are of similar skill level.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

No. Mostly just the people that won't stop b****ing about it. Several store champs have already been won by imperials, so clearly it's not everyone.

But people were testing Imperial options before the nerf even went live and they still didn't find anything quite up to snuff for the meta. The Store Champ victories are nice, but still not top level.

Just now, SabineKey said:

But people were testing Imperial options before the nerf even went live and they still didn't find anything quite up to snuff for the meta. The Store Champ victories are nice, but still not top level.

It's all we've got between now and nationals.

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It's all we've got between now and nationals.

It is good training and it can give us hints as to trends. But due to how Store Championships are generally shaped by local preference, the results we see aren't necessarily indicative of performance versus high level meta. Hence why I view the previous events I spoke of with more weight than Store Championship results. To me, Store Championships are the build up/testing area, while Nationals are gonna be the actual proving ground.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Hence why I view the previous events I spoke of with more weight than Store Championship results.

The problem with giving them all the weight is that the System Opens were months ago now, worlds was weeks ago, and they aren't anything ongoing, so they cna't give us any new information. We know how stuff did there, but not in relation to anything that people might hvae come up with or started flying since. If everyonej ust keeps pointing to the 3 post-nerf opens and worlds and says "see, imperials suck", then they just won't fly imperial and there won't be any CHANCE for a change.

5 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

I suspect that they could undo the Emperor nerf without too much fuss, if they haven´ t started printing new editions of the Raider, that is. I think it may have been that step too far for Imperial players that forced them into other factions.

Believe me, imperial aces players were leaving for scum aces in spades before the palpatine nerf, while the other imperial players went with their last bastion of x7 defenders, the defender players will be most likely happy with a decent buff for the SF and some lists which include stuff like the striker or aggressor or bombers or whatever. But the aces players are gone and are unlikely to return any time soon, it not just Palpatine that screwed imperial aces over.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The problem with giving them all the weight is that the System Opens were months ago now, worlds was weeks ago, and they aren't anything ongoing, so they cna't give us any new information. We know how stuff did there, but not in relation to anything that people might hvae come up with or started flying since. If everyonej ust keeps pointing to the 3 post-nerf opens and worlds and says "see, imperials suck", then they just won't fly imperial and there won't be any CHANCE for a change.

And that is the core problem with those forums. People asking constantly for CHANGE, instead of dealing with the cards they got dealt.
**** CHANGE. Just deal with the situation and fly whatever you think is valid. If that's mindlink, go for it. The mindlink lists are anyway more fun than Palp Aces on a mechanical level, double reposition at PS9 certainly is not the holy grail of fun game experiences.

Still, I liked the game better pre-nerf city, Paratani might have gotten a little out of hand, but asside from that and especially before that the game was great and the FAQ was not stupid.

For me it is - I'm enjoying it a lot less than at any other point I've been playing, which was at the start of Wave 5. I don't feel that I can fly ships I want to because, with so much in the game now, it always feels like there's a hard counter for your choices and you can far more easily lose a game at the 'list-building' phase, particularly if you're 'off-meta' but your opponent is not.
The 'Great Nerfing' didn't improve the game overall, it just reduced Imperial options and success rates while leaving the maligned S&V stuff almost entirely untouched, so it's understandable that folk still feel 'burned' by it. It has also set a dangerous precedent of hard errata, opening up FFG to the tirade of 'fix' or 'nerf' suggestions by those who, in a lot of cases, evidently do not possess experience or knowledge of game design and so said suggestions tend to aggravate rather than help in any way.

Wave 11 is boring. There's no way around it, sadly: yet another 1 AGI Rebel ship with at least one 'junk' card already (Wookie Commandos), a damaged TIE Advanced with a turret that couldn't shoot forward (which is, y'know...literally the entire point of the Synced Turret card) and that will functionally just be a **** TLT carrier (because of course we need more of that), and another Scum ship that looks set to make the Jumpmaster mistakes again (combination of slots, cost and stats that we know thus far). I want to be wrong, but today's Aggressor preview changed nothing about those concerns.

There's also the fact that, despite the long-standing nature of the problems, nothing has yet been done to address some of the most 'suffering' ships in the game (which for me are the Starviper, Kihraxz, non-Corran E-Wings and the titular X-Wing), nor is there any sign of anything for them on the horizon, since we already know the C-ROC (also horribly underwhelming) is next and that Wave 11 will be after that. I'd also be wary about an 'Aces' pack that fixes any or all of them, too, since we know Imperial Veterans didn't stick 'as-released' for very long, so I'd be cautious about spending money only for them to 'fix' another design mistake after the fact.

It's the first time that the idea of a reboot or 'X-Wing 2.0' hasn't sounded like idiotic nonsense to me, but I cannot see a way it can be done without infuriating half the player base when they are forced to re-buy altered cards, and lord knows I do not want FFG to fall into the 'GeeDub Trap' of regular core rules rewrites/releases.

I won't sell my collection or stop playing the game over it (though I've considered downsizing), but it's certainly made me consider my involvement with it to the stage where I have lost interest in tournaments, and I have no intention of buying anything new for the forseeable - which, given that I would quite routinely get 1 or 2 of each new ship when a Wave released, is quite a step back.

3 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

For me it is - I'm enjoying it a lot less than at any other point I've been playing,

Yeah, you sum it up rather nice. Ironically I stopped instead playing casual and just go to tournaments instead ... I still grabbed a few old ships recently, just because they were on sale and I still have a few missing ships for the "one of everything" collection, but I am literally just collection and stopped buying enthusiastically into lists and experimentation.

12 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The problem with giving them all the weight is that the System Opens were months ago now, worlds was weeks ago, and they aren't anything ongoing, so they cna't give us any new information. We know how stuff did there, but not in relation to anything that people might hvae come up with or started flying since. If everyonej ust keeps pointing to the 3 post-nerf opens and worlds and says "see, imperials suck", then they just won't fly imperial and there won't be any CHANCE for a change.

So we should ignore solid data points for more recent, yet less solid data? Yes, new things can be discovered and we may have new ships out by Nationals, but that doesn't mean much if the new things aren't facing the same competition that was at the higher level events. Also, the reports from Store Championships don't always indicate the skill level of those who do use meta lists, meaning loss could be accounted for player error rather than facing lists that are on an equal playing field. Higher level events usually mean better average skill and longer to really put lists through their paces.

52 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The endless whining about the palpatine nerf demostrates perfectly why there aren't more imperials showing up in tournaments (bfeore store champs at least). People seem to think the faction is incapable of flying anything without the crutch of a free die change once per round whenever it suits you best...

Palpatine needed to be nerfed, and he's still good post-nerf. Give it a rest.

Oh, so now you are able to read in minds of Imperial X-Wing players? How nice of you.
You see I was not using Palpatine too much - given that my favourite archetypes for Imperials are 3 Aces or Deci + wingman. And when I really wanted to win things I just took to tournaments two toilet seats and partybus. I played against Palpatine in tournaments countless times and I never felt he was too strong or overpowered - even more, tournament data showed that he was not a problem at all. The real problem were Defenders. Unfortunately constant whining probably made FFG to do one of the worst balancing decisions ever - to nerf perfectly fine card.

Just now, Embir82 said:

Oh, so now you are able to read in minds of Imperial X-Wing players? How nice of you.
You see I was not using Palpatine too much - given that my favourite archetypes for Imperials are 3 Aces or Deci + wingman. And when I really wanted to win things I just took to tournaments two toilet seats and partybus. I played against Palpatine in tournaments countless times and I never felt he was too strong or overpowered - even more, tournament data showed that he was not a problem at all. The real problem were Defenders. Unfortunately constant whining probably made FFG to do one of the worst balancing decisions ever - to nerf perfectly fine card.

The problem was both palpatine AND defenders. It wasn't just one or the other. And the comment you bolded is specifically talking about everyone whining about the palp nerf. If you didn't fly palp anyway, than why complain about the nerf?

Just now, VanderLegion said:

The problem was both palpatine AND defenders. It wasn't just one or the other. And the comment you bolded is specifically talking about everyone whining about the palp nerf. If you didn't fly palp anyway, than why complain about the nerf?

Because I am against stupid, bad nerfs - doesn't matter if I used nerfed thing or not.

Just now, Embir82 said:

Because I am against stupid, bad nerfs - doesn't matter if I used nerfed thing or not.

We disagree that it was a stupid, bad nerf. Palp is still a playable and very usable card, but he's no longer so powerful that he has to be in almost every competitive imperial list.

The nerfs were fine. I used to be angry about the ones I used, but I got over it.

I see how things are currently bleak for the imperials as a "top tier" competition. I really get it. I hope ffg figures out the right formula. I don't want any faction underrepresented but it's impossible to keep a perfect balance at all times. I remember when I first joined xwing and the joke was you either flew Jumpmaster, you flew imperial, or you lost. Times are a changing.

Just now, ScummyRebel said:

I remember when I first joined xwing and the joke was you either flew Jumpmaster, you flew imperial, or you lost. Times are a changing.

Yeah, now the joke has become "You fly Jumpmaster, or you lose."

53 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So we should ignore solid data points for more recent, yet less solid data? Yes, new things can be discovered and we may have new ships out by Nationals, but that doesn't mean much if the new things aren't facing the same competition that was at the higher level events. Also, the reports from Store Championships don't always indicate the skill level of those who do use meta lists, meaning loss could be accounted for player error rather than facing lists that are on an equal playing field. Higher level events usually mean better average skill and longer to really put lists through their paces.

How long did it take for anyone to crack onto Dengaroo? How long after the Whisper nerf before people realised that Whisper was still really good? Sabine crew and K-wings? Parattanni, Heragator, Palp-aces? There's been a heap of lists that were non-existent when their components were first released, which then went on the be strong meta forces. There was a time when people on this forum were arguing that putting Palpatine on a lambda shuttle was a waste of 29pts, and he'd never see play. It took one of our local players winning 2 store championships with Soontir + Vader + Palp before people in our local meta realised how good Palpatine was.

We had 2 of the Empire's most popular cards nerfed in the middle of the competitive season (for excellent reason, they were both stupidly good, and now they're merely good). Does it really surprise anyone that people (particularly competitive players) piled out of the faction when worlds was around the corner? Now's the time you'll start to really see how the Imperial faction is doing. It's store champ season, and even the really competitive players will be experimenting to try and find what they'll play in the next season.

Also, it's laughable to call any tournament data "solid data". At best it gives you an insight into what people perceive to be good. Do we even have solid numbers yet on the faction split for worlds?

24 minutes ago, CRCL said:

How long did it take for anyone to crack onto Dengaroo? How long after the Whisper nerf before people realised that Whisper was still really good? Sabine crew and K-wings? Parattanni, Heragator, Palp-aces? There's been a heap of lists that were non-existent when their components were first released, which then went on the be strong meta forces. There was a time when people on this forum were arguing that putting Palpatine on a lambda shuttle was a waste of 29pts, and he'd never see play. It took one of our local players winning 2 store championships with Soontir + Vader + Palp before people in our local meta realised how good Palpatine was.

We had 2 of the Empire's most popular cards nerfed in the middle of the competitive season (for excellent reason, they were both stupidly good, and now they're merely good). Does it really surprise anyone that people (particularly competitive players) piled out of the faction when worlds was around the corner? Now's the time you'll start to really see how the Imperial faction is doing. It's store champ season, and even the really competitive players will be experimenting to try and find what they'll play in the next season.

Also, it's laughable to call any tournament data "solid data". At best it gives you an insight into what people perceive to be good. Do we even have solid numbers yet on the faction split for worlds?

That is assuming that no one tried to make something work for Imperials in time for at least one of the System Opens, which I find ridiculous. Also, if the Empire was in a good place as a faction, they should have been able to adapt a few lists and still preform reasonably well, like Scum did. But they didn't. Even at Worlds, there were several Imperial lists with positive win/loss ratios, yet only one made top 16 and was eliminated before top 8.

I still don't buy that Palp and x7 were "stupid good" as they didn't actually dominate like people claim. Yes, they were good, but people could handle them. If their ubiquitous use was a sin, then Miranda, Biggs, and the Stressbot are equally guilty, and that's not counting some things on the Scum side. I'd still rather face Commonwealth Defenders than quite a few top meta lists today.

Your dismissal of Tournament data has me doubting your understanding of the game. Actual numbers of lists from each individual faction actually doesn't mean too much. In previous System Opens, Scum made up the majority, with Rebels and Imps being roughly even in number of lists. But Rebels still made it to top 4 and won two of the recent System Opens. Tournament data might not be perfect, but it is still the best tool we have to determine the current balance of the game.

I'm not discounting the idea of a hidden gem for Imperials to use to rise again, but until that is proven against the best the other factions have to offer, the conclusion that the Empire doesn't have the means to compete at high level is supported by actual recorded results from some very talented players going head to head.

If you truly believe that the Imps just need time to adjust, I challenge you to try it. I started the Fel Challenge for just this kind of disagreement. If you believe that people just jumped ship because the "OP" cards were taken away, show them they missed something by getting out there and flying Empire to victory.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That is assuming that no one tried to make something work for Imperials in time for at least one of the System Opens, which I find ridiculous. Also, if the Empire was in a good place as a faction, they should have been able to adapt a few lists and still preform reasonably well, like Scum did. But they didn't. Even at Worlds, there were several Imperial lists with positive win/loss ratios, yet only one made top 16 and was eliminated before top 8.

They WERE able to adapt a few lists and perform reasonably well, as a few lists actually made the cuts.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I still don't buy that Palp and x7 were "stupid good" as they didn't actually dominate like people claim. Yes, they were good, but people could handle them. If their ubiquitous use was a sin, then Miranda, Biggs, and the Stressbot are equally guilty, and that's not counting some things on the Scum side. I'd still rather face Commonwealth Defenders than quite a few top meta lists today.

They were the ONLY things being flown for imperial. Because they were THAT MUCH better than everything else in the faction. It wasn't that everything else was crap. Palp and x7 defenders were just too far above the power curve.

As for Miranda and Biggs, plenty of people have also talked about Biggs and Sabine kwings being an issue, so there's no real disagreement there...

ditto jummasters and attani.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Your dismissal of Tournament data has me doubting your understanding of the game. Actual numbers of lists from each individual faction actually doesn't mean too much. In previous System Opens, Scum made up the majority, with Rebels and Imps being roughly even in number of lists. But Rebels still made it to top 4 and won two of the recent System Opens. Tournament data might not be perfect, but it is still the best tool we have to determine the current balance of the game.

Rebels were the only ones not hit by the "Great Nerfing"

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

If you truly believe that the Imps just need time to adjust, I challenge you to try it. I started the Fel Challenge for just this kind of disagreement. If you believe that people just jumped ship because the "OP" cards were taken away, show them they missed something by getting out there and flying Empire to victory.

I am. I flew imperials for several of my vassal league matches (in the core worlds, so I was up against skilled opponents) and won my last (admittedly small, but played against very good opponents) Store tournament with them. I plan to take em to store championships too.

3 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

*stuff well said

At @VanderLegion re SabineKey. Vander you may see anecdotal evidence, but don't be the one to dismiss data. People who dismiss data cannot be reasoned with. They will hold onto their opinion long past their expiration date for conversation. This happened in Armada, and the result was the least diverse meta in the history of the game.

Now, 1. By your statement: A few lists made it, however if too few lists make it, its still a problem. See, if in a top32 only 3 people bring Imperials at all, that's a problem of the perception of Imperials being widespread as not competitive. This type of perception is not randomly made up over night but a combination of seeing people fail in games over and over again at local events. It doesn't matter if one player makes the top4 from that group of 3. There's still an issue of skill floor playability.

2. If you say there are a few lists, the onus is on you to provide those lists. If not in structured data via ListJuggler, than at least the simple explanation of what those lists were (3 Defenders, some 4ship semi ace with OL, etc). You also haughtily boast about your own successes, while not even contributing what your list is to show the community a concrete example of what you think is viable. From there, we can also determine whether your successes are based on the list or perhaps a skill-disparity between you and your common opponents.

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@SabineKey I might be wholesomely biased to Imperial, but I'd have to say, 3 x7 defenders pre-nerf were extremely strong, and the original Palp Aces Palp Soontir Vader was a serious menace. It might have never gotten a worlds win, but it showed up in HUGE numbers among all tournaments.
Now I wish x7 still wasn't an action, but I think unnerfing Palp would help Aces and other random lists more. And retracting a partial nerf on x7 and fully unnerfing Palp would likely bring back similarly dominant Palp Aces and Palp Commonwealth Defenders. Aces is easier to give help to nowadays as spike damage is really popular in this meta.