There are encounters like the second of Prison of Khinn or the first of Shadowfall Mountain in which monster groups are not placed at the beginning but appear as reinforcements during the encounter. Is it possible to play Enchanter cards on monster groups that are not yet on the map?

If it is possible, would it be possible, after having played Sign of the Last Zenith on group 2 that is not yet there, to "cycle" Rings of Zhol'Alam by playing it on monster group 1 also not yet placed, move it immediately to group 2 since there is no monster from group 1 on the map, draw a card from Sign of the Last Zenith, then discard the Rings for good since there is no monster from group 2 on the map either?

Also, is it possible to play Enchanter cards on monster groups that are no longer on the map and that can't be reinforced? I'm asking because in cases where only monsters from 1 group remain on the map, playing Sign of the Last Zenith on a monster group that has been entirely decimated (after all, it can be the last card in the deck...) would at least allow some card drawing.

I prefer to ask in case the heroes ask me what the heck I'm doing, because some of these plays seem quite tricky to me.

I'm pretty sure you can't do that. There's nothing specific to the enchanter deck that prohibits playing cards on monsters not on the map, but there are definitely general rules about playing OL cards on heroes not on the map (namely, you cannot do it).

For most purposes, the map is all that exists in a Descent quest. If a figure (such as a familiar or monster) disappears from the map, when it's brought back it's considered to be an entirely new entity.

Again, it's possible you can play these cards the way you imply (I can find no explicit text about enchanter cards to say otherwise) but my opinion is that it's not legal.

Thanks. Then the (unwritten - but why wouldn't they write it?) rule would be that there has to be at least one monster on the map to play an Enchanter card on its group. It makes the Enchanter cards a little weaker than I thought, but that's fine.

However, it raises the question about whether Enchanter cards that are not discarded from decimated monster groups still have an effect, like:

- Would a newly reinforced monster from that group be affected by it? (I don't see any reason why not, since the card is still in play)

- Would a monster from the same group appearing in a secret room be affected by it?

- Would Sign of the Last Zenith still allow to draw cards (after all, it is not discarded, and if it is in play, why would its effect cease?)

See, that's something I'm thinking about, too.

My thought would definitely be that the card stays in play until you're instructed to discard (or the encounter ends).

For some reason, a monster group being temporarily absent from the map and being not yet on the map at all or certain not to be on the map again seem like different things... they may not be.

There seems to be little experience playing with these cards. I sent my questions to FFG and I'll come back with their answers.

I've used the enchanter cards in a fair number of quests, but I've never actually had the opportunity/desire to use them in the way you describe. Although, it doesn't help that I've never bothered buying a 3XP enchanter card.

On 2017-5-22 at 7:37 PM, Ispher said:

There are encounters like the second of Prison of Khinn or the first of Shadowfall Mountain in which monster groups are not placed at the beginning but appear as reinforcements during the encounter. Is it possible to play Enchanter cards on monster groups that are not yet on the map?

If it is possible, would it be possible, after having played Sign of the Last Zenith on group 2 that is not yet there, to "cycle" Rings of Zhol'Alam by playing it on monster group 1 also not yet placed, move it immediately to group 2 since there is no monster from group 1 on the map, draw a card from Sign of the Last Zenith, then discard the Rings for good since there is no monster from group 2 on the map either?

Also, is it possible to play Enchanter cards on monster groups that are no longer on the map and that can't be reinforced? I'm asking because in cases where only monsters from 1 group remain on the map, playing Sign of the Last Zenith on a monster group that has been entirely decimated (after all, it can be the last card in the deck...) would at least allow some card drawing.

I prefer to ask in case the heroes ask me what the heck I'm doing, because some of these plays seem quite tricky to me.

That's an excellent question Ispher and would makes Sign of the Last Zenith worth their 3 exp cost.

Although, I'm inclined to agree with Zaltyre on this, but I'll bring some ruling to reinforce my analisys.

The idea you bring that the OL could use cards on absent groups of monsters would be perfect legal if the card explicitly reffer to "monster card" in the OL play area. But enchanter cards always reffer to "monster group" instead.

Observe the quest "Blood and Betrayal" encounter 2B for instance. The setup clearly enlist Lady Elisa Farrow as part of the quest, and the OL effectively put her liutenant card in his play area. There is a mechanic in the quest that instructs the OL to put fatigue tokens on Elisa "liutenant card", not having to put her in play at all to obey that rule.

The point is, the developer clearly have 2 concepts here, "monster group" and "monster card", and for the purpose of enchanter cards you have to target a valid monster group, that must be in play at the time the card is played.

Answering your questions from subsequent reply:

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- Would a newly reinforced monster from that group be affected by it? (I don't see any reason why not, since the card is still in play)

Yes.

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- Would a monster from the same group appearing in a secret room be affected by it?

No. A monster inside a secret passage is not on the main map, its not part of the original monster group of that given encounter. The secret passage is a separated event during the encounter.

Edit: Yes. The secret room map tile is considered to be part of the quest map. If monsters are revealed from challenge tokens and the same type of monsters are already present, the monster in the secret room is considered to be a part of this group but does not count towards the group limit. Thus, these monsters would benefit from anything that affects the monster group, including Enchanter OL cards and monster artifacts.

Quote

- Would Sign of the Last Zenith still allow to draw cards (after all, it is not discarded, and if it is in play, why would its effect cease?)

Yes. There is no rule that instruct you to discard the card, even with the monster group defeated. The passive effect on 2nd paragraph will trigger for the remaining of the encounter.

Nice questions Ispher. Let's see what the other members think.

Some comments on secret rooms based on a couple of uFAQs:

The secret room map tile is considered to be part of the quest map. If monsters are revealed from challenge tokens and the same type of monsters are already present, the monster in the secret room is considered to be a part of this group but does not count towards the group limit. Thus, these monsters would benefit from anything that affects the monster group, including Enchanter OL cards and monster artifacts.

4 minutes ago, Sadgit said:

Some comments on secret rooms based on a couple of uFAQs:

The secret room map tile is considered to be part of the quest map. If monsters are revealed from challenge tokens and the same type of monsters are already present, the monster in the secret room is considered to be a part of this group but does not count towards the group limit. Thus, these monsters would benefit from anything that affects the monster group, including Enchanter OL cards and monster artifacts.

Hm, didn't know that. Interesting Sadgit! Will edit my previous post.

Thank you for your answers. That way, we have at least a basis for playing these cards until FFG's answer comes in.

Even without being able to play it on groups that are not on the map, I find Sign of the Last Zenith quite powerful in long encounters if you can play it in the first turns. With just 3 other Enchanter cards (which is the minimum to buy it), Sign of the Last Zenith lets you re-use these 3 cards while letting you draw 3 more. That's a gain of 6 cards for just one played! Admittedly the cards have to be drawn in the right order, but the potential is there.

And Rune of the Phoenix is so good, recycling that card alone is already worth the cost.

I too got an answer to questions I sent a couple of months ago:

Dear FFG, I have 2 questions about the Overlord Enchanter class cards: 1) In some encounters like the 2nd of Prison of Khinn or the 1st of Shadowfall Mountain, most monster groups are not placed on the map at the beginning but during the encounter. Can Enchanter cards be played on groups that are not yet placed on the map? 2) If all monsters in a group (that is not reinforced) on which Sign of the Last Zenith has been played are killed, does the Overlord still draw a card whenever another Enchanter card is discarded from another group, and does the discarded card get played on the Sign of the Last Zenith group even though it has no monsters left? Thank you for your answers and for the great game.

Thanks for posting that, Ispher. Different answer than I expected, so good to have it.