11 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

I only ever put 1 Jumpmaster on the table at any one time (I only have one, but that's beside the point!)

Much like the Falcon and the Outrider there's only one way to play this ship and that's to put about 60 points into Dengar and fly it alongside a little ship (if you're super cool you'll pick Guri )

JumpMaster 5000: · Dengar (33)
Expertise (4)
Extra Munitions (2)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
K4 Security Droid (3)
· Punishing One (12)
Glitterstim (2)
Unhinged Astromech (1)
Protectorate Starfighter: · Fenn Rau (28)
Push The Limit (3)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)
-- TOTAL ------- 97p. --

Oh yeah

10 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Oh yeah

No.

Dengar + Guri, cool. There is a balance to the unbalanced. Very Zen.

Dengar + Fenn, not cool.

I think I wouldnt hate the ship so much if more poeple had reason to actually care about the thing. It literally does not matter from a "game" standpoint. But from a fluff junky "I Heart SW" standpoint, it just kinda hurts to see your beloved star wars gets it *** kicked by ugly piece of junk without nostolgia to it. I mean, can anyone really claim to have deep beloved memories of the JM5k, even in the expanded universe books?

Without power creep, its a ship diehards buy to fill out thier collection (what it should be). Nobody picked up this game thinking "Star wars? Awsome! I really hope they give me a chance to fly my favorite EU ship the Jum...." Yea no.

17 minutes ago, DarthCognis said:

I think I wouldnt hate the ship so much if more poeple had reason to actually care about the thing. It literally does not matter from a "game" standpoint. But from a fluff junky "I Heart SW" standpoint, it just kinda hurts to see your beloved star wars gets it *** kicked by ugly piece of junk without nostolgia to it. I mean, can anyone really claim to have deep beloved memories of the JM5k, even in the expanded universe books?

Without power creep, its a ship diehards buy to fill out thier collection (what it should be). Nobody picked up this game thinking "Star wars? Awsome! I really hope they give me a chance to fly my favorite EU ship the Jum...." Yea no.

They only get playtime because of the silly brokenness of this piece of sh...ip!

2 hours ago, DarthCognis said:

I think I wouldnt hate the ship so much if more poeple had reason to actually care about the thing. It literally does not matter from a "game" standpoint. But from a fluff junky "I Heart SW" standpoint, it just kinda hurts to see your beloved star wars gets it *** kicked by ugly piece of junk without nostolgia to it. I mean, can anyone really claim to have deep beloved memories of the JM5k, even in the expanded universe books?

Without power creep, its a ship diehards buy to fill out thier collection (what it should be). Nobody picked up this game thinking "Star wars? Awsome! I really hope they give me a chance to fly my favorite EU ship the Jum...." Yea no.

I don't like that it keeps down the X-wings either, though I am glad it's in the game. It's a recognizable ship for me, and more so Dengar is an iconic bounty hunter and it's his ship. (It'd be cool if it was cheap enough to run a Bounty Hunters list: pick three of the Executor crew, Dengar, Bossk, IG-88, Zuckuss, 4-LOM, Fett, each in their own ships.)

Just now, TheHumanHydra said:

I don't like that it keeps down the X-wings either, though I am glad it's in the game. It's a recognizable ship for me, and more so Dengar is an iconic bounty hunter and it's his ship. (It'd be cool if it was cheap enough to run a Bounty Hunters list: pick three of the Executor crew, Dengar, Bossk, IG-88, Zuckuss, 4-LOM, Fett, each in their own ships.)

Epic is a thing my friend. Go run the Bounty Hunter's Guild.

17 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

Epic is a thing my friend. Go run the Bounty Hunter's Guild.

This is true. This is true.

8 hours ago, kris40k said:

No.

Dengar + Guri, cool. There is a balance to the unbalanced. Very Zen.

Dengar + Fenn, not cool.

If you buy both Mindl...

.ah I guess it will be no Zen too..

To the OP - play what you want, and don't let people make you feel bad for doing so. (The one exception to this is giving demo games to new players, where you want lists that showcase the rules in a way to teach the basics of the game, but I'm sure we're all on board with the idea that crushing a new player does nobody any good.)

19 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

2# You should still feel dirty about it. Just compare these:

This isn't a meaningful comparison, as the X-Wing loses out to almost every other ship in the game when looked at like this. The JumpMaster isn't keeping non-Biggs X-Wings out of the game, that's been done by basically every ship that's been released since Wave 2 onward.

More generally, it's not sensible to compare the JumpMaster to things like a generic X-Wing, an Outer Rim Smuggler, or a Wild Space Fringer. These are all ships that weren't seeing any play well before the JumpMaster hit the tables. The last think I want FFG to do is base their new releases on ships that are well below the power curve of the game - rather, those ships should be brought up to the power curve through new releases. The Defender is a prime example of how this can be done.

On May 23, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Stevey86 said:

Yay! What's your list?
I won a tournament last summer with this:

Dengar
Punishing One
Push The Limit
Unhinged Astromech
K4 Security Droid
Engine Upgrade
Inertial Dampeners

Guri
Virago
Veteran Instincts
Fire Control System
Autothrusters
Advanced Proton Torpedoes

Stevey, I'm about to take a similar list to my first Store Championship tomorrow. A budget player (the list I posted before was mostly stuff I was trying out in advance of owning it), I was wracking my brain trying to mash my few Imperials into a decent list with a minimum of additional purchases. I realized I might be able to squeak out a build with the upgrades I own on the Punishing One and Guri. If they hand out the Engine Upgrade participation prize before the tournament begins, I think I'll run this:

Dengar (33)
Push the Limit (3)
Proton Torpedoes (4)
Boba Fett (1)
R5-P8 (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Punishing One (12)

Guri (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Virago (1)

Total: 97

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The astro/crew combination is much worse, unfortunately. The torps are moved to Dengar and cheapened to get under Dengar/Tel's bid.

If they don't hand out the EU promo till later, I'll try this:

Tel Trevura (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Proton Torpedoes (4)
Dengar (3)
R5-P8 (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Punishing One (12)

Guri (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Virago (1)

Total: 96

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Dengar crew's pretty sweet; I wouldn't be at all upset to run him. The rest is a bit shaky, but this is probably the best list I can put together without a U-wing (Expertise, Sensor Jammer) and/or K4/Unhinged. Wish me luck (I'm gonna need it)!

2 hours ago, TheHumanHydra said:

Stevey, I'm about to take a similar list to my first Store Championship tomorrow. A budget player (the list I posted before was mostly stuff I was trying out in advance of owning it), I was wracking my brain trying to mash my few Imperials into a decent list with a minimum of additional purchases. I realized I might be able to squeak out a build with the upgrades I own on the Punishing One and Guri. If they hand out the Engine Upgrade participation prize before the tournament begins, I think I'll run this:

Dengar (33)
Push the Limit (3)
Proton Torpedoes (4)
Boba Fett (1)
R5-P8 (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Punishing One (12)

Guri (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Virago (1)

Total: 97

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The astro/crew combination is much worse, unfortunately. The torps are moved to Dengar and cheapened to get under Dengar/Tel's bid.

If they don't hand out the EU promo till later, I'll try this:

Tel Trevura (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Proton Torpedoes (4)
Dengar (3)
R5-P8 (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Punishing One (12)

Guri (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Virago (1)

Total: 96

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Dengar crew's pretty sweet; I wouldn't be at all upset to run him. The rest is a bit shaky, but this is probably the best list I can put together without a U-wing (Expertise, Sensor Jammer) and/or K4/Unhinged. Wish me luck (I'm gonna need it)!

I shall sacrifice an Ewok to the dice gods for you.

One way is to run three bumpmasters, that's a very different prospect than just torping fools.

On 2017-5-22 at 7:16 PM, NakedDex said:

Overall, to hell with meta stigmas. Play what you enjoy. It's a game; never lose sight of that.

Oh, you will enjoy for sure. The opponent... not so much.

On 23.5.2017 at 8:24 PM, DarthCognis said:

I think Im getting the Darwinian point your trying to make. Just answer me this, do you gain satisfaction over beating someone in a situation that you have garnered an inherit advantage in? If so, then you really are "Scum and Villainy"

I remember this high school freshman that walked into my LGS, showed some interest. Normally I play the core set with newbs to show them the ropes, get them hooked, but I was busy and passed off his first game to a friend who wanted to fly jumpmasters that day. The kid never came back, because that initial experience taught him that it was rigged and arbitrary and stupid. X wings and Tie fighters make people want to play, and keep playing, and end up with hundreds of dollars worth of plastic and cardboard to increase the joy they get from them.

Jumpmasters are poison that kill anyone enthusiasm for the game, and lessens the experience of the people already in the game.

There is a jump of logic in there and you know it. Maybe you have a leg to stand on, maybe you don't have, but you most certainly did not make your point on behalf of the problem with the jumpmasters

15 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

There is a jump of logic in there and you know it. Maybe you have a leg to stand on, maybe you don't have, but you most certainly did not make your point on behalf of the problem with the jumpmasters

From an academic standpoint yes, you could use a bunch of latin and greek to explain why my argument is swiss cheese.

But from an personal standpoint, I am betting on the assumption that many if not most of the players here have had relatable experiences.
Im not trying to "win" a debate, Im trying to shine a light on our moral compasses. Either you listen to the little voice inside that knows when it see's unfairness, or you shove it deep inside because winning is satisfying.

On 24.5.2017 at 2:33 AM, Cerve said:

JumpMaster 5000: · Dengar (33)
Expertise (4)
Extra Munitions (2)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
K4 Security Droid (3)
· Punishing One (12)
Glitterstim (2)
Unhinged Astromech (1)
Protectorate Starfighter: · Fenn Rau (28)
Push The Limit (3)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)
-- TOTAL ------- 97p. --

Oh yeah

That's almost the same as my current tournament list. Mine has an Ion Torpedo on Fenn (for all those formation ********) and BMST on Dengar (if I have a leftover action and enemy ship is stressed might aswell...). My philosophy in building the list was:

1) I want Uniform PS and might aswell go up to 9

2) "No one flies Dengar anymore" (this was a few weeks before Worlds)

3) I love Expertise and what better platform for it than Dengar

I first toyed around with aforementioned Talonbane-Dengar but Kihraxz didn't really cut it. Don't get me wrong, I like my Kihraxz and I would like to see it fly and play beautiful music but it's just unable to do it right now. So I settled with Fenn Rau.

When I first saw the World Champion list i was both pleased and horrified. Pleased because I came up with the same setup for Dengar myself and horrified because now I'll have to explain everyone that I'm not blatantly copying that list.

EDIT: The ******* is the W-word not the F-word. Just FYI...

1 hour ago, DarthCognis said:

From an academic standpoint yes, you could use a bunch of latin and greek to explain why my argument is swiss cheese.

But from an personal standpoint, I am betting on the assumption that many if not most of the players here have had relatable experiences.
Im not trying to "win" a debate, Im trying to shine a light on our moral compasses. Either you listen to the little voice inside that knows when it see's unfairness, or you shove it deep inside because winning is satisfying.

The thing is that I can run 50 other ships including something silly like 5 HWKs and recreate the same experience for the newbie. Now we are not going to argue that HWKs are OP, right? ;-)
I am not talking about an academic standpoint, I am talking about an issue that correlation ain't causation and problems of a ship in a very specific situation does not account for a general problem with that ship.

(edit)

Adding to that: There is a reason why everyone recommend to play the core set with a newbie and not just discourage the use of a few ships.

The next worst dirty overpowered things in scum are Fenn Rau and to a lesser extent the Shadowcaster. How can you possibly not feel dirty after running Fenn Rau with evertyhing. Give it up. Play HWKs and Starvipers and Zs.

14 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

The next worst dirty overpowered things in scum are Fenn Rau and to a lesser extent the Shadowcaster. How can you possibly not feel dirty after running Fenn Rau with evertyhing. Give it up. Play HWKs and Starvipers and Zs.

But I like to play HWKS and Starvipers with Mindlink. How can you feel not dirty when playing anything with Mindlink?

BTW, my last tournament list:

No More Manaroo

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

Guri (30)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Sensor Jammer (4)
Autothrusters (2)
Virago (1)

Palob Godalhi (20)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Vectored Thrusters (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

How can you possibly not feel dirty after running Fenn Rau with evertyhing. Give it up. Play HWKs and Starvipers and Zs.

Well I love to play Fenn and I love the HWK challenge. I don't feel dirty when flying Palob along with Fenn.

Sorry for off-topic but I think I was similarly triggered as SEApocalypse

I did tournament yesterday with this list and make to second place! No shame!

Lancer-class Pursuit Craft: · Asajj Ventress (37)
Push The Limit (3)
· Latts Razzi (2)

JumpMaster 5000: · Dengar (33)
Expertise (4)
Extra Munitions (2)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
K4 Security Droid (3)
· Punishing One (12)
Unhinged Astromech (1)
-- TOTAL ------- 100/100p. --

I think my conscience is clear. I've been trying torpedo scouts. Turns out....I'm pretty bad at getting the torpedoes off so....I feel balanced.

I played 5 or 6 games with the jumpmaster when I finally bought it just so I could say I tried it.

Haven't flown it since.

Friends, for the love of goodness, just talk to your opponents before you play about what kind of game experience you want to have. 'Let's avoid meta lists' and 'let's play competitive squads' are both valid answers*. If you really can't agree, or find enjoyment in the other person's style, hopefully there will be another individual to have a game with.

* Or 'let's play competitive squads, but ban Jumpmasters,' or whatever.

18 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

* Or 'let's play competitive squads, but ban Jumpmasters,' or whatever.

Or even, "Let's experiment with JM5Ks at +2 points."

I was talking to a guy at my small tourney yesterday who was flying Rau-Boats -- "I'm just going to win a Store Championship, and then I'm going to start petitioning TOs to ban them" -- and I was baffled. I mean, if a TO feels comfortable banning JM5Ks, why not just increase their cost instead? That way the people who legitimately enjoy flying them (beyond "whee, this OP ship makes me feel so powerful!") can still fly them.