6 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

That's fair, I was a bit over assertive about the general timing of cancellation. As it turns out, cancelling dice via card text is left out of the Rules reference as a whole (I did check before I posted) and inconsistently applied in all other places.

Things that cancel dice (and when):

-Crack Shot (start of Compare results)

-Bossk (before Deal Damage)

-Wampa (start of Compare results)

-Accuracy Corrector (modify attack dice)

-Ion/Flechette Cannon, Tractor Beam, Ion Pulse Missiles, Twin Laser Turret, Ion Cannon Turret, XX-23 S-thread Tracers (end of Compare results)

And I believe that's an exhaustive list.

But again, cancelling dice is not the same as modifying dice, and because of the Accuracy Corrector example, I put the phrase in "unless otherwise specified". Fact of the matter is, it's always specified when you cancel dice via card text... except in the unfortunate Lt.'s case. A.C. is the only one that doesn't do it in "Compare Results" or later (thanks Bossk), and while that is definitely how it is going to function after they errata it, it's also definitely not how it works now.

Actually it's frequently been unspecified what the timing is for cancelling until subsequent erratas. Accuracy corrector was originally just When attacking and was erratad to specify modify attack dice step. crack shot had to be erratad to specify the compare results step (after first being erratad to the modify defense dice step). I don't remember if wampa needed an errata or not off the top of my head.

During the modify defense dice step is the only timing that makes sense for Kestal to actually have a useful ability

27 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Actually it's frequently been unspecified what the timing is for cancelling until subsequent erratas. Accuracy corrector was originally just When attacking and was erratad to specify modify attack dice step. crack shot had to be erratad to specify the compare results step (after first being erratad to the modify defense dice step). I don't remember if wampa needed an errata or not off the top of my head.

During the modify defense dice step is the only timing that makes sense for Kestal to actually have a useful ability

Wampa has an erratum.

I agree that's definitely RAI, although interestingly enough there are already people (posted in this thread even) who have differing opinions about when it should happen (i.e. 4-LOM timing vs Juke timing).

But you make most of my point for me: how many times do we have to go through this? Why can't it be clear from the get-go? WHY does FFG seem incapable of learning from their past errata? Of which there are 3! Pertaining to situations extremely like this!

35 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

Wampa has an erratum.

I agree that's definitely RAI, although interestingly enough there are already people (posted in this thread even) who have differing opinions about when it should happen (i.e. 4-LOM timing vs Juke timing).

But you make most of my point for me: how many times do we have to go through this? Why can't it be clear from the get-go? WHY does FFG seem incapable of learning from their past errata? Of which there are 3! Pertaining to situations extremely like this!

Oh I agree it absolutely SHOULD have been written clearly as many times as they've had to errata cards to fix the same issue.

And I don't think people are arguing it actually USES 4lom timing, so much as saying that's how they should have made it work.

Rules Lawyers make every game worse

The Article makes it dead clear how her ability is meant to be used. Its logic like displayed here that turn rules from a source of common ground to enjoy each others company, to a potential exploit over other players.

She is meant to deny poeple's defensive focus and auothrusters, along with things like Rey or Finn. Dont try to to make a thing just so you can piss in some kids cereal when he tries to play with his toys as intended "Well ACTAULLY, if you read the rules as written blah blah fun kill"

Wait, you saying FFG ....... Made a typo.......

Just further evidence that they'd be doing everyone a favor--especially themselves, if they'd just institute a templating structure for card texts. It would look like those old "MADlib" games where you fill in the nouns.

Then just print the actual step at which it occurs. All timing related cards need to have those two pieces of information.

Creating the templates would be a lot of work up front but would eliminate a lot of need for an ever lengthening errata. It would take pressure off the developers when writing new cards though, and they'd save time on proof-reading too. Not to mention the backlash from the community anytime it's ambiguous or they get it wrong on the preview articles.

Totally worth the effort.

3 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

My question is, what's the timing between the LT removing dice from the pool, and LWF rolling the extra die?

count defense dice (LWF +1), roll defense dice, attacker modifies defense dice (Lt removes dice), defender modifies defense dice, add results (C-3PO), cancel results(crackshot), compare results.

14 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

count defense dice (LWF +1), roll defense dice, attacker modifies defense dice (Lt removes dice), defender modifies defense dice, add results ( C-3PO ), cancel results(crackshot), compare results.

There's no separate "add results" step. C3PO happens immediately after rolling the dice, before the attacker modifies defense dice step (it can be juked). Normal abilities that add results (such as Finn) happen during the normal modification steps, in finn's case, during Attacker modifies attack dice or Defender modifies defense dice.

Edit: And cancelling results can happen at many different points as well. Accuracy corrector is during attacker modifies attack dice. Crackshot is start of compare results step. Bossk is before dealing damage (but after comparing results), etc.

FFG is really turned in the new GW. Wow....

3 hours ago, Zazaa said:

something like pharmaceutical companies use.

People's lives are on the line here too so they had better hurry!

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I also love how much imperials have shown up winning and/or in the cuts at store champs given how much everyone complains on here about them being unplayable.

Not to be a tool, but Store Champs are a horrible measure of what's "playable" -- you get plenty of people who don't play the meta/all that seriously at store champs, so making the cut doesn't actually have any indication that the list was good.

... I made the cut this weekend and I was running RAC & Quickdraw. I was playing for fun, and happy to me in a more competitive atmosphere, but I didn't actually expect to win much. I saw three lists that wouldn't be considered meta by any standard, and my last opponent (also 3-0 at that point) was running Paratanni. You know, post nerf.

I got knocked out after the cut by Dengar/Tel, which felt more right

8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Just like Jabba. FFG are on a one company mission to become a laughing stock.

They already have succeeded with that years ago. They are now in the phase in which their reputation is so ruined that it literally does not matter. As long as their games are still fun, everyone will take their inability to write clear rules as a given and natural drawback with FFG games.

Besides, this years best tournament prices are custom errata cards, they are the big thing you can add as TO besides the silly stuff from the tournament kits. Easy to print, great to get people joining, a dream for TOs. They don't need to be official either, because who cares about that on a errata card, everyone has the original cards anyway.

Quick reminder for the european champion ... whoever might win that, we want Palpatine for everyone! ;-)

6 hours ago, Zazaa said:

Lol! FFG has made rule/errata/FAQ jungle that they can't even keep up with it themselves...

They need new development department lawyer section, something like pharmaceutical companies use.

First step would be to hire someone for QA just like pharmaceutical companies are required by law to do.

7 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

That's fair, I was a bit over assertive about the general timing of cancellation. As it turns out, cancelling dice via card text is left out of the Rules reference as a whole (I did check before I posted) and inconsistently applied in all other places.

Things that cancel dice (and when):

-Crack Shot (start of Compare results)

-Bossk (before Deal Damage)

-Wampa (start of Compare results)

-Accuracy Corrector (modify attack dice)

-Ion/Flechette Cannon, Tractor Beam, Ion Pulse Missiles, Twin Laser Turret, Ion Cannon Turret, XX-23 S-thread Tracers (end of Compare results)

And I believe that's an exhaustive list.

R4-D6 is in there right after Bossk in the before deal damage "step."

R3 Astromech seems to be in the Attacker Modifies Attack Dice step.

I want to make it clear that it doesn't seem (from my scan of the discussion) that anyone is here looking to take "advantage" of this error as some seem to think is the discussion point of this thread. Instead, we have a well informed player pointing out that, yet again, FFG has released a card that, while intent is clear, is worded in such a way that by their own rule set, may not do what it should. It's a good discussion to have, as if things like this continue to happen, there will be more possibilities of getting rule lawyered by uptight jerks as FFG continues to release cards that do not have an air tight seal on their wording.

As a veteran of several GW games I have to say FFG is by no means the worst when it comes to writing simple, understandable rules. Admittedly GW is a very (very) low bar to set though.

My only gripe with Lt. Kestal is that I'd like this ability on a named Rebel Y-wing.

Looks sooo good with an Ion Turret.

I think we can safely assume that you remove the dice before they are modified or else why make the pilot ability at all lol

move along...