Do trumpets reduce the speed of a turning charge modifier?

RR 49.3 lists the modifiers as separate:

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Units resolve modifiers during the Activation Phase. Each icon represents a different action, as follows:

• Turn • Charge • Turning Charge • Wheel • Defend • Enhance ... • Bonus Action ...

RR 85 defines a turning charge as a mere combination of turn and charge:

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A turning charge is a movement modifier that combines the effects of the turn and charge modifiers.

From this, I interpreted that trumpets would indeed prevent a turning charge from slowing you down. Is there another rule that I've missed here that makes it clear that I have this wrong? Someone asked in a comment on the wiki, so I thought I'd check here before responding there.

I already responded to that question on the wiki and came to the same conclusion as you.

However, you found some pieces that I didn't see that make me question that interpretation. I didn't see 85 that talks about the turning charge combining the effects of the charge and turn modifiers but it doesn't necessarily count as a turn and charge modifier. Since the upgrade specifically calls out the turn modifier and not the turning charge modifier, perhaps it is not intended to work with charges. I could certainly see someone make that argument.

A similar question could be asked about Aggresive Cornicen.

Does the charge apply to turning charges as well? I think it does, but it mentions being modified by a charge, and if you look up charge in the rules, it says that the burst icon is what makes it a charge, so this one clearly applies to all charges.

As for trumpets, I think I've convinced myself that my first impression was wrong.

Yeah, this is one of those questions that I could really see going either way (based on what we have so far) and it may just need to be answered in a FAQ at some point. However, there could be yet another point we're missing from the rules that clarifies it, so I'll look around and see what I can find. I'd love to find something along the lines of "effects that modify a turn do/don't modify a turning charge" but I probably won't

11 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I already responded to that question on the wiki and came to the same conclusion as you.

However, you found some pieces that I didn't see that make me question that interpretation. I didn't see 85 that talks about the turning charge combining the effects of the charge and turn modifiers but it doesn't necessarily count as a turn and charge modifier. Since the upgrade specifically calls out the turn modifier and not the turning charge modifier, perhaps it is not intended to work with charges. I could certainly see someone make that argument.

A similar question could be asked about Aggresive Cornicen.

Does the charge apply to turning charges as well? I think it does, but it mentions being modified by a charge, and if you look up charge in the rules, it says that the burst icon is what makes it a charge, so this one clearly applies to all charges.

As for trumpets, I think I've convinced myself that my first impression was wrong.

Wouldn't it make it impossible for a unit with Aggressive Cornicen to ever turn or wheel if the modifiers didn't stack. Aggressive Cornicen isn't optional.

4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Wouldn't it make it impossible for a unit with Aggressive Cornicen to ever turn or wheel if the modifiers didn't stack. Aggressive Cornicen isn't optional.

Right. Yes. Aggressive Cornicen is a bad comparison to make because the arrow in the charge symbol is irrelevant. Charge (16) makes it clear that the burst is what makes something a charge. We can ignore the arrow in the symbol.

But if the rules weren't clear on that point, it could have been a situation where it needed to say, "When you perform a [march], treat it as modified by a [charge], or, if you are performing a [turn], treat it as modified by a [turning charge]." That's sort of the situation we find ourselves in with Trumpets. Turn modifiers don't reduce your speed, but what about turning charge modifiers?

Reading RR 85 makes it seem to me that they intend for turning charge to be both a turn and a charge. Which would make me think that anything that effects your turns would affect your turning charges and anything that affects your charges would also affect your turning charges. It seems to me that that is what was intended, but what it "seems to me" doesn't ultimately add up to much. Unfortunately, I've been unable to find anything other than what we've mentioned that would apply to the situation.

oh god this discussion...it got pretty heated in the facebook group...My reading of that card is that it only affects turns and wheels not charges because it used icons, and in the RRG the charge options have different icons referencing the modifiers. That's how i'm playing the game for now, if FFG erratas or clarifies then cool...I feel the explanation saying it combines the effect or both turn and a charge is saying that the turning charge does both things but it is not treated as both of those things...

If it affected turning charge, it would have the symbol for a turning charge.

Simple.

Turn and Turning Charge are separate and distinct modifiers with their own symbols and their own entries.

Furthermore, it in no way interferes with Aggressive drummer or cornicen.

They add the charge modifier to whatever you do, and the straight charge symbol DOES NOT dictate that you must use the straight march template, nor does ANY rule indicate that you cannot have a March modified by both [turn] and [charge].

The idea that trumpets can affect turning charges is silly. That would mean that Reanimates would turn and charge faster than they charge straight, which makes no sense at all, from any perspective.

Well the idea that they go slower when charging is silly no matter how you look at it . But I get that it's a gameplay/balance decision more than anything. Thanks for all the input on this one guys!

"Okay troops, chaaaarrrrrge!!!!!" *Troops stop running and just walk briskly* "I get no respect around here* - Ardus Ix'Erebus

15 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

If it affected turning charge, it would have the symbol for a turning charge.

This would be how I would rule as well, for now.

38 minutes ago, Willange said:

Well the idea that they go slower when charging is silly no matter how you look at it . But I get that it's a gameplay/balance decision more than anything. Thanks for all the input on this one guys!

"Okay troops, chaaaarrrrrge!!!!!" *Troops stop running and just walk briskly* "I get no respect around here* - Ardus Ix'Erebus

There is a huge difference between moving forward, at speed, unopposed, and moving forward while prepared to defend yourself, weapons raised, ready to attack.

Try running with a sword and shield slung on your hip and back or even in hand but lowered, then try the same thing with them in your hands, raised, prepared to fight.

You might find it difficult to do both at once.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm totally on board with the whole "using reality to justify game rules is pointless" position, I'm just saying, it's not totally silly or unbelievable, particularly for some gangly, uncoordinated, half conscious skeletons.

2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

There is a huge difference between moving forward, at speed, unopposed, and moving forward while prepared to defend yourself, weapons raised, ready to attack.

Try running with a sword and shield slung on your hip and back or even in hand but lowered, then try the same thing with them in your hands, raised, prepared to fight.

You might find it difficult to do both at once.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm totally on board with the whole "using reality to justify game rules is pointless" position, I'm just saying, it's not totally silly or unbelievable, particularly for some gangly, uncoordinated, half conscious skeletons.

I'm with ya there I just thought it was humorous. If anything, you'd think that the spearmen would charge slowly as well. I can't imagine running with body-sized shields and these big ol' spears in tight formation is exactly easy either. Though I doubt any of the units ever really stow their weapons on the battlefield we see. It's all close enough that I'd definitely be drawn the whole time. But I'm not a fantasy medieval soldier.

The reality is that they just made the charge slower for balance and gameplay.

As for the rule we're discussing. I see your point and don't necessarily disagree. I'm not really convinced either way at this point and until there's a FAQ I simply won't run the upgrade to avoid potential confusion. That, or I'll just do it whatever way the folks at my LGS rule. In the end it really only matters that we're on the same page. I'm really not competitive enough for it to affect me.

All these "it doesn't have the turning charge icon on it"-people: Then what would be the entire point of rule 85 if I may ask?

3 hours ago, Furyan666 said:

All these "it doesn't have the turning charge icon on it"-people: Then what would be the entire point of rule 85 if I may ask?

First of all, if you're going to cite a rule, quote it.

85 Turning Charge
A turning charge is a movement modifier that combines the
effects of the turn and charge modifiers.

I don't understand your confusion. It describes how you execute a turning charge, by combining the EFFECTS of a charge and a turn modifier, and it also quite clearly says that turn, charge, and turning charge are three separate and distinct modifiers.

Notably, it DOES NOT SAY "a turning charge is both a turn and a charge"

Till the FAQ's says this or the opposite, I understand the same a "turning charge" is not a "turning" modifier.