39 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Kestal is perhaps the ultimate demonstration of the fact that the balance pipeline is always 6-12 months behind the current meta.

Kestal will hurt Fenn, but murder Soontir Fel and his buddies. How many of them are we seeing these days, eh? Not even desperate need for Predator - all you need to hit them is more raw hits than they roll evades; how many eyes are rolled makes no difference.

The bit that truly astonishes me is that this power is good enough that it would have place on any ship - imagine if it had been Zuckuss that had it instead, you'd have seen him a whole lot more? - and they gave it to a turreted fighter . Simply incredible.

Just to make sure I understand this ability, Kestal will trigger before the defender can mod their dice right? So in essense you are forcing a naked roll? What in Zues's butt hole are they smoking at ffg? The new imperial is hands down the deadliest imperial killer and doesn't do a whole lot to scum and near nothing to rebs. Complete loss of words here, tell me I got how the card works wrong.

15 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Just to make sure I understand this ability, Kestal will trigger before the defender can mod their dice right? So in essense you are forcing a naked roll? What in Zues's butt hole are they smoking at ffg? The new imperial is hands down the deadliest imperial killer and doesn't do a whole lot to scum and near nothing to rebs. Complete loss of words here, tell me I got how the card works wrong.

Given that Fenn Rau is in practically every scum list, and Old Teroch is in a lot of them, it'll do plenty to scum as well.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Given that Fenn Rau is in practically every scum list, and Old Teroch is in a lot of them, it'll do plenty to scum as well.

But it does work the way I said?

Just now, LordFajubi said:

But it does work the way I said?

Pretty sure it does. No other way makes sense. If it happened in the compare results step it wouldn't do anything. It has to take place in the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step to be at all useful

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Pretty sure it does. No other way makes sense. If it happened in the compare results step it wouldn't do anything. It has to take place in the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step to be at all useful

Attacker modifies dice before defender. Dice, once cancelled, cannot be modified again.

It'll hurt Fenn, but Fenn never expected to live that long and has 4 HP when his defenses fail. Soontir, though, is dead meat.

It's extra potent with an Ion cannon, in which point you don't care about getting lots of mods - just beating their naked roll at all. TLT, of course, is similar, but you trade off an ion token in return for the chance to roll your dice twice, and double your damage if they hit sans special ability regardless.

It's an answer to the imperial scurge...oh yeah.

I know people hate on palp but with this traitor there is 0 reason defenders should have been nerfed.

34 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Attacker modifies dice before defender. Dice, once cancelled, cannot be modified again.

It'll hurt Fenn, but Fenn never expected to live that long and has 4 HP when his defenses fail. Soontir, though, is dead meat.

It's extra potent with an Ion cannon, in which point you don't care about getting lots of mods - just beating their naked roll at all. TLT, of course, is similar, but you trade off an ion token in return for the chance to roll your dice twice, and double your damage if they hit sans special ability regardless.

I know attacker modifies first. The "pretty sure" was a hedge against ffg ruling some other weird (and stupid) timing for it.

I disagree that fenn is just there to die, and this definitely hurts him a lot. I'd actually argue it hurts fenn more than soontir. Soontir at least can spend his evade token at any range. If you use anturret on kestal you don't even have to be facing fenn for him to get the title.

Also, soontir has been out of the meta for a long time now anyway. The imperial ships being flown at the moment have more health than interceptors.

Ion turret is good, but actually less scary to the lower health aces than something like synced turret that could do more damage on a bad green roll

On 23.5.2017 at 7:32 AM, DarthCognis said:

I think your framing her in the wrong role. She isnt an endurance based endgame piece like our Lady in Hell Omega Leader. That design space is filled, think of the Lt. as a human torpedo meant to do cost efficient burst damage before burning down. If she can trade for fenn, or for half a Dengar, then her job is done.

Maybe I have expressed myself wrong. English isn´´'t my main language. So new try!

I compare them because they are exactly priced the same. Look at the base ships (15 vs 17 and Omega 21 with PS8 and Kestal with 22 with PS7). So we pay an up of 2 Points for 1 less agility, but 1 more shield (maneuver dial WILL surely be more restrictive than TIE/FO).

So the baseline for them is to be 2 points more expensive. Kestal has 1 Point PS less so she comes in with 22. Why did she get such a bad ability? The abilities should be roughly similiar in power!

She has to USE her focus and fires after the aces (so every ace in game will be using all at their deposal to hurt her bad - no need for holding back). Yes she has the potential to be a ace killer. But she doesn´# t even stops Fenn from using his extra evade die and automatic Evade in Range 1. So Fenn is the ace against this ability is the weakest from all aces (besides maybe Carnor).

I had wished for a better ability for the highest skilled Aggressor Pilot. So she will be overshadowed by Double Edge who is 3 points cheaper and can easily fit in a filler / multipurpose role (Lone Wolf, Ion Turret and Unguided, first shooting with Ion Turret - so the defender has to made a bad decision!!!). This comes for cheap 28 points and kill aces too!

16 minutes ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Maybe I have expressed myself wrong. English isn´´'t my main language. So new try!

I compare them because they are exactly priced the same. Look at the base ships (15 vs 17 and Omega 21 with PS8 and Kestal with 22 with PS7). So we pay an up of 2 Points for 1 less agility, but 1 more shield (maneuver dial WILL surely be more restrictive than TIE/FO).

So the baseline for them is to be 2 points more expensive. Kestal has 1 Point PS less so she comes in with 22. Why did she get such a bad ability? The abilities should be roughly similiar in power!

She has to USE her focus and fires after the aces (so every ace in game will be using all at their deposal to hurt her bad - no need for holding back). Yes she has the potential to be a ace killer. But she even stops Fenn from

using his extra evade die and automatic Evade in Range 1. So Fenn is the ace against this ability is the weakest from all aces (besides maybe Carnor).

I had wished for a better ability for the highest skilled Aggressor Pilot. So she will be overshadowed by Double Edge who is 3 points cheaper and can easily fit in a filler / multipurpose role (Lone Wolf, Ion Turret and Unguided, first shooting with Ion Turret - so the defender has to made a bad decision!!!). This comes for cheap 28 points and kill aces too!

What you're missing is that Kestal's ability is much, MUCH more flexible. She doesn't have to get a TL to use it, so she doesn't have OL's huge issue of having to get in range and take an action to use her ability, and therefore most often going into the opening engagement either without her ability or without a focus token. Kestal can use Deadeye and Homing Missiles to more or less autokill any 3 hull ship, on average, or can use TLTs to shove through close to guaranteed damage, or ion cannons for incredible control - or equip Unguided Rockets for a tough-to-block 3 primary. OL never gets above 2 attack, and rarely engages with a full stack of tokens.

It's also worth noting that OL doesn't cost 21, she costs 26; Juke and Comm Relay could basically be printed on her card.

15 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

What you're missing is that Kestal's ability is much, MUCH more flexible. She doesn't have to get a TL to use it, so she doesn't have OL's huge issue of having to get in range and take an action to use her ability, and therefore most often going into the opening engagement either without her ability or without a focus token. Kestal can use Deadeye and Homing Missiles to more or less autokill any 3 hull ship, on average, or can use TLTs to shove through close to guaranteed damage, or ion cannons for incredible control - or equip Unguided Rockets for a tough-to-block 3 primary. OL never gets above 2 attack, and rarely engages with a full stack of tokens.

It's also worth noting that OL doesn't cost 21, she costs 26; Juke and Comm Relay could basically be printed on her card.

Not true. OL is playable with A score to settle and no other modification if you have only 21 points! And its very playable!

Please show my your effective Kestal Build with 22 points...

Besides this... do you really find Kestals ability this great? Or do you just want to prove me wrong?

She must shoot unmodified, will have nothing for defense... Kestal should be called Pure Sabacc....

3 minutes ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Not true. OL is playable with A score to settle and no other modification if you have only 21 points! And its very playable!

Please show my your effective Kestal Build with 22 points...

Besides this... do you really find Kestals ability this great? Or do you just want to prove me wrong?

She must shoot unmodified, will have nothing for defense... Kestal should be called Pure Sabacc....

I've not tested OL with just AS2S but I have my doubts about it. I'm goign to give it a try sometime when I've got a little more game time on my hands.

I don't think there's a 22 point Kestal build, FWIW. I never remotely implied that there was. But you can definitely run her with just TLT and a 0 point upgrade for 28.

I said that Kestal has a more flexible ability than OL, which is undeniably true. I'd also add to that that putting her PS up even by 1 potentially would get her into 'one shot Fenn with a Homing Missile before he can act' range, by bumping her up to PS10 and supplying her with a focus from an allied Fleet Officer.

9 minutes ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Not true. OL is playable with A score to settle and no other modification if you have only 21 points! And its very playable!

Please show my your effective Kestal Build with 22 points...

Besides this... do you really find Kestals ability this great? Or do you just want to prove me wrong?

She must shoot unmodified, will have nothing for defense... Kestal should be called Pure Sabacc....

Anything is playable. OL without Juke isn't good, especially not since the Palp nerf. Two attack dice, even with the mod, aren't enough to burn through most agility dice, and ASTS only works on one enemy, where Juke works on anyone with an agility score.

Just because you may have won a couple games using a setup does not make it good.

OL, for all intents and purposes, is 26 points.

It is without doubt the best configuration, yes. Never doubt that. But sometimes you just don't have the points.

A 26 Omega Leader kills Fenn too (remember how he was called an ace killer?). How many points you have to put into Kestal to say the same of her? And what do with her after she spent her missile?

Omega Leader on the other side take a new victim in his target lock and works. Who is more flexible now? Kestal is a one trick pony... and if you roll badly (or Fenn lucky - the missiles "can´t use Evade doesn´'t hurt Fenn in the least) on you Missile attack possibly a wasted one too.

Time will tell... When we see the first Kestals in the Regional and World Top 16 I will offer my humble apology for finding her ability poor.

4 minutes ago, xstormtrooperx said:

It is without doubt the best configuration, yes. Never doubt that. But sometimes you just don't have the points.

A 26 Omega Leader kills Fenn too. How many points you have to put into Kestal to say the same of her? And what do with her after she spent her missile?

Omega Leader on the other side take a new victim in his target lock and works. Who is more flexible now? Kestal is a one trick pony... and if you roll badly (or Fenn lucky - the missiles "can´t use Evade doesn´'t hurt Fenn in the least) on you Missile attack possibly a wasted one too.

Kestal has a decent chance of one-shotting Fenn with just Deadeye and a 4-attack missile. Catch him at range 3 in arc roll hit/hit/hit/crit, spend focus to block his defensive mods, get lucky with crits. And even after that, her primary at range 2 still has a reasonable chance of pushing damage through.

But personally, I'd be using her with TLT. Blocking autothrusters is great.

Also, OL should never beat Fenn. Fenn is worth more, and arc dodges better. OL shouldn't even be getting a shot on Fenn, one on one, and Fenn's 5 unmodified dice can still overwhelm OL's defences.

I'm not necessarily trying to say Kestal's better than OL by the way. She's differently good, I'd probably rate her a little worse. But being disappointed that she's not the same PS or the same cost is probably a little unfair.

Just try and keep Fenn at a distance and plonk away with your TLT. Depending on the dial it shouldn't be too hard... He'll have no evades.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Kestal has a decent chance of one-shotting Fenn with just Deadeye and a 4-attack missile. Catch him at range 3 in arc roll hit/hit/hit/crit, spend focus to block his defensive mods, get lucky with crits. And even after that, her primary at range 2 still has a reasonable chance of pushing damage through.

But personally, I'd be using her with TLT. Blocking autothrusters is great.

Also, OL should never beat Fenn. Fenn is worth more, and arc dodges better. OL shouldn't even be getting a shot on Fenn, one on one, and Fenn's 5 unmodified dice can still overwhelm OL's defences.

Yeah we both talking in a vacuum here with no other ships involved. Theory.

Practice often shows that OL can get shots off at Fenn. And hurt him badly.

Blocking AT? How much ships with AT do you see nowadays? And you still only block AT once.

1 minute ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Yeah we both talking in a vacuum here with no other ships involved. Theory.

Practice often shows that OL can get shots off at Fenn. And hurt him badly.

Blocking AT? How much ships with AT do you see nowadays? And you still only block AT once.

Like... Fenn and Teroch. A lot.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Like... Fenn and Teroch. A lot.

The both possibly shoot before Kestal. If Fenn is doing his thing right she won´' t even firing his missile.

Or his TLT more than once...

The Lt has a wicked ability, granted, but I think you are looking at it incorrectly.

Lt has to spend a focus, after modifying her own attack dice and the defender rolls theirs. So that means she is essentially praying for a strong natural roll, assuming no secondary weapons, that is on two attack dice.

Give her Unguided Rockets and it is still three attack dice, with no mods. (now she is also 25 points at PS7).

Give her TLT and she is firing less modified shots than a Y wing if she wants to use her ability (also, she is now 28 points)

So. . Lets build her.

22 points base
Expertise so she can modify her shots and not spend her focus. (26)
TLT? (32)
Lightened Frame to protect your investment? (34)

So now we have a 34 point single action ship, at PS7, protected by two/three agility, four hull and a single shield.

A single action ship which MUST focus to use its ability and must not spend that focus to modify her attack or defense.

So my thinking is:

Fenn will kill her before she fires
VI Bossk with Homing and 4LOM will kill her before she fires
Miranda will kill her before she fires, hell, maybe before she even moves.
Palob will steal her focus.
Carnor will stop her from taking or spending a focus.
Wes (even without VI) will steal her focus and maybe even stress her, before she fires.
A bump will stop her from taking a focus action.
Stress will stop her from taking a focus action.
Quickdraw will welcome the damage.
Ghost will not care and will likely Primary and then TLT her to death.
Jumpmasters won't care because they are going to be firing torps at her any second now.
VI RAC fires, likely either hotshots her focus away or Kylo's her.

(Not sure how her ability works against Dark Curse and Omega Leader?)

So maybe we give her VI instead so she at least fires. She is now 30 points. Leaves you 70 points for the rest of your list which you have to build around her because she is now essentially the Imperial Biggs.

I appreciate how strong her ability is on paper but in reality, it may not work on the board. Look at Rexlar Brath, how often does he get to use his ability?

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

What you're missing is that Kestal's ability is much, MUCH more flexible. She doesn't have to get a TL to use it, so she doesn't have OL 's huge issue of having to get in range and take an action to use her ability, and therefore most often going into the opening engagement either without her ability or without a focus token. Kestal can use Deadeye and Homing Missiles to more or less autokill any 3 hull ship, on average, or can use TLT s to shove through close to guaranteed damage, or ion cannon s for incredible control - or equip Unguided Rockets for a tough-to-block 3 primary. OL never gets above 2 attack, and rarely engages with a full stack of tokens.

It's also worth noting that OL doesn't cost 21, she costs 26; Juke and Comm Relay could basically be printed on her card.

Kestal with deadeye and homing missile doesn't have THAT good of a chance to auto-kill a 3 health ship. You have to roll 3-4 hits/crits naturally without modification (besides chips I guess), then they have to roll 0 (if you rolled 3) or 1 (if you rolled 4) evades.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Kestal has a decent chance of one-shotting Fenn with just Deadeye and a 4-attack missile. Catch him at range 3 in arc roll hit/hit/hit/crit, spend focus to block his defensive mods, get lucky with crits. And even after that, her primary at range 2 still has a reasonable chance of pushing damage through.

But personally, I'd be using her with TLT . Blocking autothrusters is great.

Also, OL should never beat Fenn . Fenn is worth more, and arc dodges better. OL shouldn't even be getting a shot on Fenn , one on one, and Fenn 's 5 unmodified dice can still overwhelm OL 's defences.

I'm not necessarily trying to say Kestal's better than OL by the way. She's differently good, I'd probably rate her a little worse. But being disappointed that she's not the same PS or the same cost is probably a little unfair.

It's not a "decent" chance. You have to get really lucky and roll at least 3 unmodified hits/crits and he has to roll 0-1 natural evades on 4 green dice (or add even more luck to get direct hits)

14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Kestal with deadeye and homing missile doesn't have THAT good of a chance to auto-kill a 3 health ship. You have to roll 3-4 hits/crits naturally without modification (besides chips I guess), then they have to roll 0 (if you rolled 3) or 1 (if you rolled 4) evades.

It's not a "decent" chance. You have to get really lucky and roll at least 3 unmodified hits/crits and he has to roll 0-1 natural evades on 4 green dice (or add even more luck to get direct hits)

finally someone who can do math! thanks!

But let them believe Kestal is a ONE HIT MONSTER.

39 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Kestal with deadeye and homing missile doesn't have THAT good of a chance to auto-kill a 3 health ship. You have to roll 3-4 hits/crits naturally without modification (besides chips I guess), then they have to roll 0 (if you rolled 3) or 1 (if you rolled 4) evades.

It's not a "decent" chance. You have to get really lucky and roll at least 3 unmodified hits/crits and he has to roll 0-1 natural evades on 4 green dice (or add even more luck to get direct hits)

Carnor as a wing man fixes that and you could use concussions and guidance chips to up your chances and if using dead-eye and attempting a one hit kill why would you not set up a target lock first? Granted none of this is guranteed but with proper planning and the reward being a dead target you can up your chances to pretty decent by making the reward worth the effort. The only x-factor is can they roll evades first toss on 3 agi, I think most people would gladly take the odds on that. Btw all this minus Carnor is range 3 achievable. This ***** will be terrifying in skilled hands.

19 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Carnor as a wing man fixes that and you could use concussions and guidance chips to up your chances and if using dead-eye and attempting a one hit kill why would you not set up a target lock first? Granted none of this is guranteed but with proper planning and the reward being a dead target you can up your chances to pretty decent by making the reward worth the effort. The only x-factor is can they roll evades first toss on 3 agi, I think most people would gladly take the odds on that. Btw all this minus Carnor is range 3 achievable. This ***** will be terrifying in skilled hands.

If you use concussion missiles now the target has the chance to spend evade tokens. And if you're taking extra rounds to set up target lock and focus you probably die before you get to fire the missile.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

If you use concussion missiles now the target has the chance to spend evade tokens. And if you're taking extra rounds to set up target lock and focus you probably die before you get to fire the missile.

Not with carnor they don't, it isn't easy but it requires 2 rounds. I have seen pilots that can do it fairly regularly. Hell you could throw jendon in there easily and bring it to 1 turn passing the TL.

As awesome as TLT is, I don't think it works well with Kestal. I think the Ion Turret is going to be her best weapon -- she's much better at sniping that shot through than anything we've seen before, and she'll go a long ways to controlling Fenn & Teroch, and could even give big base ships some concerns if they aren't careful with ALL of their movement. I think it's 33 points worth of things to consider.