9 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:Tansari point vets with Pulse ray shields.
How is that (assuming Mindlink is nerfed to range 1) going to be competitive against:
1) Crack Swarm
2) Bombers with Unguided Rockets.
IMO there is no way a Veteran spam list will beat either of those lists.
Just now, LordBlades said:How is that (assuming Mindlink is nerfed to range 1) going to be competitive against:
1) Crack Swarm
2) Bombers with Unguided Rockets.
IMO there is no way a Veteran spam list will beat either of those lists.
If crack swarm is competitive again, mission accomplished.
5 hours ago, Marinealver said:Yeah but I'm trying to think of a build where Lt. Kestral would work? I though of snap shot but then again her ability wouldn't work with snap shot anyways unless mindlink was involved. Even with mindlink then you still have to jam in Fleet Officer somewhere on a lower pilot skill ship and yeah. It is just a mess.
Sorry to say that - instantly found Lt. Kestals ability rather bad. It´´ is a very (offensive only, non TL but focus needing) version of Omega Leader. Yeah, she can kill aces.
I think she was designed before the Defender Nerf. But even so - you can still use that evade token.
1 hour ago, xstormtrooperx said:Sorry to say that - instantly found Lt. Kestals ability rather bad. It´´ is a very (offensive only, non TL but focus needing) version of Omega Leader. Yeah, she can kill aces.
I think she was designed before the Defender Nerf. But even so - you can still use that evade token.
I think your framing her in the wrong role. She isnt an endurance based endgame piece like our Lady in Hell Omega Leader. That design space is filled, think of the Lt. as a human torpedo meant to do cost efficient burst damage before burning down. If she can trade for fenn, or for half a Dengar, then her job is done.
Dude, I don't get it? Kestal's ability seems pretty freakin pro.
"lol, those focus die are cute. So are your blanks you wanna reroll. Too bad none of them matter."
Fires at point blank range.
2 hours ago, DarthCognis said:I think your framing her in the wrong role. She isnt an endurance based endgame piece like our Lady in Hell Omega Leader. That design space is filled, think of the Lt. as a human torpedo meant to do cost efficient burst damage before burning down. If she can trade for fenn, or for half a Dengar, then her job is done.
And she's very likely to be able to trade for Fenn in particular. Homing Missile plus Deadeye or Crackshot. Very ouchy.
Does make me worry for Fel though. Yet another thing that kills things tougher than him pretty effectively, meaning it kills HIM worse.
Also, hilariously, completely blocks Palp, assuming the timing is as expected.
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:And she's very likely to be able to trade for Fenn in particular. Homing Missile plus Deadeye or Crackshot. Very ouchy.
Does make me worry for Fel though. Yet another thing that kills things tougher than him pretty effectively, meaning it kills HIM worse.
Also, hilariously, completely blocks Palp, assuming the timing is as expected.
And it was on this day, that Carnor Jax took his rightful place as the premier Interceptor pilot.
"Can't spend a focus if you can't take a focus action"
- Carnor Jax, addressing the rest of the assembled Royal Guard in attendance.
"Can't spend a focus token if you ca..." *explodes to a range 3 homing missile*
6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:"Can't spend a focus token if you ca..." *explodes to a range 3 homing missile*
And that is the harsh reality of it.
That being said, besides VI Bossk, who else realistically will be packing missiles and able to launch a homing missile at a PS8 ship?
Deadeye'd Gammas?
Like, seriously, drawing a blank here. I have only recently seen Bossk with Homing Missiles.
1 minute ago, Viktus106 said:That being said, besides VI Bossk, who else realistically will be packing missiles and able to launch a homing missile at a PS8 ship?
Anyone with LRS (I often run Deathfire with HMs and LRS). Miranda (if she moves 2nd) is another regular carrier.
10 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:And that is the harsh reality of it.
That being said, besides VI Bossk, who else realistically will be packing missiles and able to launch a homing missile at a PS8 ship?
Deadeye'd Gammas?
Like, seriously, drawing a blank here. I have only recently seen Bossk with Homing Missiles.
Like... the discussion is exactly about Lt Kestal doing this. I'd be equipping her with VI or Deadeye rather than Crack for just this eventuality.
Also, Tomax.
I've had decent success with a list using VI Backdraft, Tomax and Deathfire all with Homing Missiles, too.
Edited by thespaceinvaderI've definitely cooled on Kestal a lot since I first saw it.
TLT sits uneasily with LWF as it usually won't trigger at R3, and a ship with green dice as its defence needs that Focus held back a lot of the time anyway. I can't really get away from thinking that she needs Lone Wolf as a crutch to both push damage and stay alive.
I think Kestal with tlt and Prockets with guidance chips and predator is gonna be pretty slick.
15 hours ago, Kdubb said:I will never ever ever understand FFGs costing methods for mid PS ships. You can take Double Edge, who has a killer ability, and give him adaptability, meaning he is the same cost and PS as an Onyx, which, by the way, has NO EPT AND NO ABILITY . That's just stupid. There is zero reason (quite literally NO REASON) to ever take an Onyx unless you are wanting to take 2 of them, in which case you take Double Edge with Adaptability and an Onyx.
FFG continues to value mid PS waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high. At best, a PS boost of 1 between PS values of 3 to 6 is worth .5 points, but I would say less than that after you get to 3, as 4 through 6 are largely PS dead zones. They are valuing a PS boost of one as being worth an elite slot (which, as proven by adaptability, is more valuable than 1 PS on its own), and a gunner-like pilot ability. In return, you get to run multiple of the ship (hurray...).
I will say that beyond the 100/6 game, there is a use for the mid PS generics. I believe that Tie Aggressors would rock in games like Epic. You can take more than one, so you get Double Edge....and then some mid PS generics. The PS 5 means they are firing before the epic ships, which is very important. The ability to take ordnance and turrets makes them worthwhile.
Also, missions...
Can you outline a case where it's worth spending extra points going up in PS ONLY that's related to mission play? I'd struggle to see that it would be worth it in most cases for the same reason it's not in tournaments - you're still limited on the points you can bring to a mission, and it's still more points-efficient to bring and Academy Pilot than an Obsidian Squadron Pilot.
'Shoots before Epic ships' is good for Epic though - and generics generally are a lot better in Epic where weight of fire is more important than cool abilities.
Edited by thespaceinvader12 minutes ago, heychadwick said:I will say that beyond the 100/6 game, there is a use for the mid PS generics. I believe that Tie Aggressors would rock in games like Epic. You can take more than one, so you get Double Edge....and then some mid PS generics. The PS 5 means they are firing before the epic ships, which is very important. The ability to take ordnance and turrets makes them worthwhile.
Also, missions...
Like a clock
1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:Can you outline a case where it's worth spending extra points going up in PS ONLY that's related to mission play? I'd struggle to see that it would be worth it in most cases for the same reason it's not in tournaments - you're still limited on the points you can bring to a mission, and it's still more points-efficient to bring and Academy Pilot than an Obsidian Squadron Pilot.
'Shoots before Epic ships' is good for Epic though - and generics generally are a lot better in Epic where weight of fire is more important than cool abilities.
Sure. For one, the simple fact that it's often better to take non-expensive aces means that more people are taking things that are ultra efficient, like Academy Pilots and Rookie X-wings (or...cheaper generic versions of whatever ship). When you are in this meta, your PS 5 might be the highest PS on the table. Or....one of the highest. With that, there are a number of places where it helps.
I will also say that it's always better to go for the mid-PS unique as opposed to the generic. Sometimes you can look at how many points it would cost to upgrade and you don't really find anything specific that would help. Even back in Wave 1-2 games, I have sometimes found a couple of points to upgrade my Academy Pilots to Obsidians and it's helped me win games. Sometimes points are tight and you can't upgrade them, but sometimes you have the wiggle room.
It is weird that mission meta is different than 100/6 meta. There is a meta there as there is meta for everything you play more than once. Things go differently when that slight PS boost really matters at times when there are lots of cheap generics on the table. Also, those pocket aces become better investments when you need more ships on the table. It's one of the things I really like about Missions. It feels like there is more room to build effective lists. When you aren't facing super aces then a lot of ships become viable again, as well. X-wings have a nice mix of speed, survivability, and firepower for their points. A-wings are faster, but not enough firepower. B-wings are (slightly after IA) tougher, but less maneuverable.
If you want to see it in action, I recommend playing a mission or even just straight up 100/6 where you are playing with All Generics. Or...maybe one unique that is below PS 7.
12 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:Like a clock
Yeah...I am predictable.
5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Sure. For one, the simple fact that it's often better to take non-expensive aces means that more people are taking things that are ultra efficient, like Academy Pilots and Rookie X-wings (or...cheaper generic versions of whatever ship). When you are in this meta, your PS 5 might be the highest PS on the table. Or....one of the highest. With that, there are a number of places where it helps.
- Attacking first and being able to kill enemy ships before they fire.
- Getting TL's for ordnance, which can be quite important in mission play. Or even....avoiding their TL for their ordnance.
- Being able to reposition into a better spot knowing where everyone is. You can say Arc Dodging, but sometimes it's moving closer to one objective or another instead of getting out of firing arc.
- Forcing your opponent to make a choice as to where to go and expect you to be before you have moved and shown your hand. Are you going for the objective on the right or on the left?
- You will know if you need to spend your action for a mission specific action or something else. Hack that satellite, or Protect (give Evade) to the Shuttle this turn are examples.
I will also say that it's always better to go for the mid-PS unique as opposed to the generic. Sometimes you can look at how many points it would cost to upgrade and you don't really find anything specific that would help. Even back in Wave 1-2 games, I have sometimes found a couple of points to upgrade my Academy Pilots to Obsidians and it's helped me win games. Sometimes points are tight and you can't upgrade them, but sometimes you have the wiggle room.
It is weird that mission meta is different than 100/6 meta. There is a meta there as there is meta for everything you play more than once. Things go differently when that slight PS boost really matters at times when there are lots of cheap generics on the table. Also, those pocket aces become better investments when you need more ships on the table. It's one of the things I really like about Missions. It feels like there is more room to build effective lists. When you aren't facing super aces then a lot of ships become viable again, as well. X-wings have a nice mix of speed, survivability, and firepower for their points. A-wings are faster, but not enough firepower. B-wings are (slightly after IA) tougher, but less maneuverable.
If you want to see it in action, I recommend playing a mission or even just straight up 100/6 where you are playing with All Generics. Or...maybe one unique that is below PS 7.
Yeah...I am predictable.
What is it about mission play that makes high PS aces less valuable exactly?
You really don't need to go ahead and explain why having the highest PS on the board is good, but I'm dubious that PS5 would be the highest PS if I was planning a mission list, unless there were some rules restriction that said I had to, and I've not obviously spotted any previously, albeit I don't own anywhere near all the missions. That's why I asked.
Edited by thespaceinvader4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:What is it about mission play that makes high PS aces less valuable exactly?
You really don't need to go ahead and explain why having the highest PS on the board is good, but I'm dubious that PS5 would be the highest PS if I was planning a mission list, unless there were some rules restriction that said I had to, and I've not obviously spotted any previously, albeit I don't own anywhere near all the missions. That's why I asked.
Sure! I love talking about this stuff because it often shows why I find Missions interesting. I will preface that it often depends on the mission and I think you need to have a well designed mission. There are often times that a mission is created....and then a new product comes out that will effectively ruin it. So, bear that in mind.
Let me start with Political Escort (where you move the Senator's Shuttle across the board). You get 100 pts to try to destroy the Shuttle before it moves off the board. If they went straight 2 each time, that's 6 turns. If the attacker played with any of the standard lists that has 2-3 ships and the defender went with something like 7 Z-95's that can give Evade actions each turn.....I am not sure if the attackers can punch through the defenses enough to kill the Shuttle. Also, I have found if you do have a horde of Headhunters, they can often break through the layered defense of Aces and start to wear them down. Not every ship is going to be in R1 of Fenn Rau and his title will be less effective. He will only have so many tokens. It's possible to just get those hits here and there in a couple of rounds. Can you build a list of aces that can probably break through that? Sure, but it would have to be tailored to that list and you don't know what that person is going to take. What if they take a different list?
That's just one example, but let me show another. We have been working on our GenCon event with all unique missions. Let me talk about the first mission: Terror Campaign. This one has taken a lot of balancing to really get right.
3x3 table where Imps get 110 and Rebels get 100. There are 6 buildings spaced around the board. Each building has 3 civilians that need to be either killed or evacuated. This is a game where having more ships to spread around the map is a good thing for either side. It also matters if you lose ships, too. So, just going for the cheapest and spreading out will most likely not get you a win. In this mission, it can be hard to avoid jousting due to the objectives that you need to play to. Putting a lot of points into Aces can really backfire in a mission where covering all your bases is important. Also, if your opponent has enough of a horde, they could burn down an ace quickly and that would make it an even bigger win for their side. I think this is a good mission that can really illustrate how an Ace might not be the best option. Then again, try it out and maybe you find a really awesome combo that works. I will say we are designing the missions with limited access to uniques. It's quite possible to build an amazing list specifically designed for this mission with aces that could do it. I think it would be hard, but it's possible.
The Senator's Shuttle is pretty trivial TBH, you bring bombers with homing missiles and it explodes. And I'd probably make one of them Tomax for good measure.
16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:The Senator's Shuttle is pretty trivial TBH, you bring bombers with homing missiles and it explodes. And I'd probably make one of them Tomax for good measure.
But Tomax isn't needed. Then again, if you took a top tournament list to that mission, it wouldn't do well.
Intensity works great with Poe i think. You could potentially flip it twice a round since Poe usually doesn't need to spend the focus. Also at the start of the match you could use comm relay to have an evade token in the first exchange.
4 hours ago, heychadwick said:I will say that beyond the 100/6 game, there is a use for the mid PS generics. I believe that Tie Aggressors would rock in games like Epic. You can take more than one, so you get Double Edge....and then some mid PS generics. The PS 5 means they are firing before the epic ships, which is very important. The ability to take ordnance and turrets makes them worthwhile.
Also, missions...
But would they "break" or missions if they were costed correctly for the standard format? I highly doubt it.
And if they don't break it, then there is no reason for them to be put in a position where they can't be used competitively in the standard format.
8 minutes ago, Kdubb said:But would they "break" or missions if they were costed correctly for the standard format? I highly doubt it.
And if they don't break it, then there is no reason for them to be put in a position where they can't be used competitively in the standard format.
Not everything needs to be effective in the "standard" format.
22 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Not everything needs to be effective in the "standard" format.
I think you misunderstood the question. The way I understood it was something like: what would be the downside (in regard to epic/mission/whatever use) if the mid PS generic didn't suck in 100/6 ?