Okay, just to start this thing off, I'm NOT calling anyone out, whining, or trying to be negative in anyway so if it sounds like I am, it's not my intent. (I know, I used a few negatives already, but... I mean in tone...)

Alright, so, I still consider myself relatively new to the game as I've only had the chance to ACTUALLY play a handful of times. So, in my free time, one of the things I like to do with the game is build lists. It's fun seeing what works, what plays off each other, and once I get THAT far, filling out the ship with other add-ons to mitigate any short comings it has, or finding other ships that can do it better OR just run as distractions so the first ship can do it's thing. I've actually accidentally built a ship that matches what the "pros" use. I also go out of my way to try to not use the so called "must fly" ships like a Biggs X-Wing and now that I've started on my Scum collection, I plan on NEVER getting a Jumpmaster.

Now, the point of this thread! I get that some people just want to win. I get that not everyone has the time I do to list build. What I want to know is, for those that just look at what works for other players and play that exact list, is the game as fun for you? Does winning still hold the same level of achievement and pride as if you built a winning list yourself?

I don't use online lists, probably because I just play for fun with friends. Even if I did play competitively I'd probably use my own lists, because I am stubborn and I like my own inventions and play styles, not others, which probably would mean a quick 1 and done for me if I ever did tournaments lol. I get more satisfaction out of thematic builds and builds I want to make based on how I am feeling. Win or lose I enjoy the game, competitively would hurt that for me. (I used to do competitive gaming, and quit because the wins were becoming what I was playing for entirely)

if you play competitive you sort of have to see what is being played. That doesn't mean you have to fly them (or Imperials would not even make top 16). Sure there is the Blue Ace theory that someone could still come up with a list that is nothing like the meta and surprises you. Still most of the time in competitive formats you will be going up against lists from the meta.

I do look at, read, tournament lists because I want to understand the meta but I fly the ships I like and like to make weird unconventional list because the game is more fun that way. I don't mind flying against meta list but i wished more people who fly what they liked not what they think will always win

I highly enjoy fly casual. I play amongst friends and family. I pay attention to the comptettive list and watch videos simply to minimize silly mistakes when I play.

The compettive list are starting to fill like Magic or Yugioh matches. All that is wanted is guaranteed win; if you don't have these ships with these upgrades you not only don't stand a chance, but are shunned. That's why I don't play those formats anymore.

I love flying my own lists.

I use the UK squad builder site, and out of coincidence I was actually on there earlier tonight and looking at my statistics, and it said about 3/4's of my lists were unique! Considering there are thousands of lists on there that's pretty impressive.

11 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

What I want to know is, for those that just look at what works for other players and play that exact list, is the game as fun for you? Does winning still hold the same level of achievement and pride as if you built a winning list yourself?

Yes and yes

For me, list building and playing the game are 2 separate things,both fun.

I enjoy list building and fiddle with squad builders on a daily basis. However, I'm fully aware I don't have the time, the environment and probably not the skill either to design a top tier tournament list, unless it's something obvious (on something like Dengaroo or Parattani). Therefore, for tournament play, I like to draw on the experience of people who have all this. Otherwise I'd just be handicapping myself which, to me, it's the opposite of what a tournament should be about.

Then there's playing the game. For me, playing is about doing your best, outflying your opponent and hopefully winning. Who made the list I'm flying has zero influence on all these .

I love looking at other's lists, obviously. It's why I built http://meta-wing.com/ . But I tend to fly my own lists anyway, sometimes against better rational judgement, because I enjoy flying them so much more.

I think "looking at existing lists" doesn't have to mean "also flying those existing lists". It can also mean "having a look at what upgrades are used with this pilot I have no clue about." Or it can mean "look and see what lists I have to practice about." Or even "let myself inspire with new ships and pilots."

No, you must be the only one playing blindfolded.

I enjoy the statistical research side of things. Seeing what is popular and testing/building to face it. There's zero shame in net decking at the competitive level. This is still a skill game, you've still gotta execute with whatever list you bring.

Every list I build has flaws, so I get clobbered. My dice are "above average" when I practice at home, yet atrocious, mean-spirited a-holes when I play at the shop. I execute macro maneuvers well, but fail to understand micro like barrel rolls and boosts. I build thematic squadrons that win, and yoink "net lists" that flop.

In short, I'm a glutton for punishment.

I love this game.

Thing about flying imps is most ships have an optimal loadout that everyone is going to eventually come to the conclusion of anyway . There's more variability with sfs but you cant exactly be creative with the ptl aces. The real uniqueness is what combination of pilots you choose, and even then people know what's good whether they read it online or not.

I wouldn't want to restrict myself from playing lists I enjoy just because they are flown by someone else.

I've played several minis games and have never been inclined to play the "New Hotness," but I do like seeing what others come up with. Folks find synergies I never noticed and I will incorporate them in my lists.

Despite the mathematical number of possible pilot/upgrade combos, the # of great synergies seems rather limited in some cases.

If I flew Fel, I'd go for the standard build. Vader, OL, and Inqy also have a smallish (yet wonderful) pallet to work with. In a search to make an Imperial alpha strike list, I built a 2SF+OL list I like without realizing that it is seemingly becoming "a thing" now. Sometimes folks come to similar conclusions when given the same inputs.

I'm finding that my rebel and scum build can be a bit more creative; I think this has the most to do with diverse crew and the number of crew-able ships in those factions.

The truth is, competetive are fun too. Everything in xwing is fun. I fly Biggs because he is a xwing and xwings are fun. We are humans. When we play a boardgame, we are always going to do what brings us the most enjoyment. People like you enjoy making your own lists and flying them. Other people find winning funner. Both are good ways to approach xwing, just done differently because people are different. Also, almost nobody flies only the one list they found on this forum. They fly tournaments and practice with competeitve lists, and then relax with fun ones at home or in the local Gamer's Den. Also, let me give you an example. A buddy of mine had a bunch of crappy scum ships that are fun to fly Starviper, G1a, Pre-fix Scyk, and even though he is the last person to ever netlist, he quickly got bored. So, he got protectorates, a pancake, and some other goodies, and started to enjoy the game even more flying exact copies of netlists. It's fun to speed around the board in a pancake. It's fun to drop 5 dice with Fenn. Hec, it's fun to try and keep people stuck in Dengar's arc. There are many ways to enjoy the game.

Even if your entire group doesn't netlist, if you play enough and are actually trying to win, you're going to have something similar. It turns out that a lot of ships synergize really well with certain upgrades or other ships, so players will naturally aggregate towards those builds. It's not like everybody's taking the exact same list. Part of the meta is taking the meta lists and modifying them subtly so that you can handle the other meta lists. The fact of the matter is, if you're playing to win, everything is not viable.

After a certain point, it just becomes you not using a ship or upgrade to be contrary. And that's completely fine if you're a casual player. I've run lists where everything had stay on target with 40+ point B-wings in casual games. Just realize that you're probably going to lose a lot more than people who aren't arbitrarily restricting what they use.

I do find it amusing that you say you don't use Biggs. Biggs's main purpose on tables is to enable ships that otherwise wouldn't stand a chance in the meta. He actually helps the wacky off the wall lists be more viable.

I prefer to build my own lists even if I use an existing archetype as a starting point. It's a risky path to take though, that often doesn't pay off.

The thing about netlists is that there are great players out there that usually manage to find the most efficient combos there are in the game at any given moment. If you're not playing one of those lists, you're probably flying something less efficient and therefore have a lower chance of winning. The advantage of having a non-meta list is that other players probably never faced it before, are not prepared for it and might make mistakes when facing it. Unfortunately there are 2 limitations to any advantage this might give you:

1. The mistakes the enemy might make due to their inexperience with your list are unlikely to be that great. They might go after the wrong target initially or place obstacles and ships in less than ideal places but it doesn't mean that the sight of your original list will make them play like idiots. Therefore your list still needs to be fairly efficient to stand a chance - and yet sufficiently different from meta lists to give you that edge. That's a tough thing to balance and more often than not new players end up with something that just isn't very good and go on to lose most of their matches.

2. The surprise factor isn't likely to last more than 1 game. Sooner or later players in your local meta will know what your list is about and at that point they will no longer make rookie mistakes against it. Then you're left with a sub-optimal list with no extra advantage.

Now, of course there's always a chance of coming up with something that completely upsets the meta, creates a new archetype and takes large tournaments by storm. After all, Dengaroo and Paratanni didn't invent themselves. Somebody pieced these lists together, field-tested them and reaped the benefits. I'm quite certain there's a lot of pride in achieving that - probably a lot more than simply winning a tournament with a meta list. That said, if you're a new player and you rely on your own lists you're far more likely to end up losing most of your matches than inventing a new meta list.

13 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

I highly enjoy fly casual. I play amongst friends and family. I pay attention to the comptettive list and watch videos simply to minimize silly mistakes when I play.

The compettive list are starting to fill like Magic or Yugioh matches. All that is wanted is guaranteed win; if you don't have these ships with these upgrades you not only don't stand a chance, but are shunned. That's why I don't play those formats anymore.

Nobody* shuns people at tournaments. That's BS. I've seen more shunning on here from people acting like tournaments are only for scrubs who don't know what real x wing is.

*At the very least, a statistically insignficant number, like under 1%.

I have an awareness of what is going on with the meta. However, I've only played one tournament, and one of my early commandments for X-wing was to only fly lists I have built myself (and to never buy a ship just for the cards). If other people want to use a list they found online, then no problem, but I like creating lists and then seeing how it flies. For me X-wing has a few core components - flying, list building, and a bit of luck, and I want to be active in all of them.

Another reason I build my own lists is out of necessity sometimes.

I rarely buy more than one of any expansion, and never more than two.

So any lists that run multiples of a ship type are sometimes not feasible for me.

Same thing goes for upgrades. I only have one starviper so I have limited access to autothrusters for example.

15 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

[...]
Now, the point of this thread! I get that some people just want to win. I get that not everyone has the time I do to list build. What I want to know is, for those that just look at what works for other players and play that exact list, is the game as fun for you? Does winning still hold the same level of achievement and pride as if you built a winning list yourself?

I'll jump in here, but I may not fit what you are describing above. I'm glad there are options in the form of upgrades, pilots and ships. But I don't care the the incredible complication that has followed as more of these are released. Some people like list building as some like deck building, many prefer the 'building' more than the actual playing.

But for me, it is the playing, and even playing to win. It's the fun of the game for me. It should be about the playing anyway, and not a Rock-Paper-Scissors (RPS) game. For me at least, winning an RPS game by list building isn't really much of an achievement anyway, nor is it a test of skills game wise. Listing building has become something that isn't fun for me any longer, I no longer care for it. So I really don't care care if I am using a list that appeared somewhere else. Actually I prefer it and honestly would like it if FFG published a book of Squads and missions. Then I might play more. I'd rather gab a list and start playing than list building. So yes, I do enjoy winning and have the same level of achievement and pride, my list or someone else's.

16 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

I highly enjoy fly casual. I play amongst friends and family. I pay attention to the comptettive list and watch videos simply to minimize silly mistakes when I play .

2 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

, many prefer the 'building' more than the actual playing.

This is me. To netlist is to take away my favorite part of the game. It was the same in M:TG; I would spend all week designing decks, and play night was finally getting to "test drive" my creation. If I look at internet sources at all, it is simply to avoid common mistakes or "figure out" why something I tried doesn't seem to work.

And, since I never play at 100 points, a lot of what people are talking about doesn't apply to my games directly anyways.

I look at netlists to try and identify a meta-counter.

I also tend to get the most satisfaction out of a win when it's a list I can call my own.

The thing with "net listing" And "my own list" is if you know how to play the game, they seem to be one in the same. My last list build session was with Norra. After about 20 minutes of looking at every possible combo to get her ability to work, I came up with.......the net list! Because it just works! Now if I take this to play against you, will you think I am a "net lister"? Now I cant take my Norra because I dont want to be "that guy" at the LGS. Even tho I spent a decent amount of time considering a lot of possibilities.

3 hours ago, kyten44 said:

After about 20 minutes of looking at every possible combo to get her ability to work, I came up with.......the net list! Because it just works! Now if I take this to play against you, will you think I am a "net lister"? Now I cant take my Norra because I dont want to be "that guy" at the LGS. Even tho I spent a decent amount of time considering a lot of possibilities.

That is really a shame. I enjoy playing the game but if this happened, I'd either stop playing, going to that LGS or both. To bad really, people and their attitudes can really hurt the game and turn people away from it. Without out that 1 in a Million shot you are almost forcing the win as the squads are reveled. Why bother playing then? What happened to 'I can out fly you'? Didn't X-Wing used to be about out flying you opponent?