Solution for attanni: deadeye 2.0 (and a look at imperials)

By falveryn, in X-Wing

The metagame is not healthy. One, there is a prevalence of attanni lists that warp the meta, and two, a lack of imperial lists.

With the title, i suggest step 1 of the changes needed to make the metagame healthy.

Issue 1: Scum prevalence can be boiled down to two reasons: Jumpmaster is undercosted, and Attanni on big ships provides too good of a support ship.

Historically, FFG won't revise ships themselves. However, making small changes to upgrade cards has a track record. Therefore, the suggested solution is:

Solution 1: "Attanni mindlink now reads small ships only. "

Note that this solution, even if it looks like a good compromise right now, won't solve the issue of JM5k, so FFG needs to make more upgrades that read "can't equip to JM5k/large ships". Fortunately, it is feasible design-wise to keep JM5k around. FFG just needs to make sure every card passes the "deadeye" test.

Issue 2: Lack of competitive imperial lists, unless there is one OP list, which then makes the meta unhealthy and gets nerfed.

Reason 1: Imperials need OP stuff to be viable. FFG designs OP stuff with a high risk. If said stuff is not OP, nothing changes and imperials continue being underpowered. If said stuff is OP, it leads to a single archetype dominating the meta, which leads to an unhealthy meta, which leads to a nerf.

The problem with imperials is that they needed op stuff to be viable, and when removed of those tools, it becomes clear how underpowered they are. Imperial lists were boiled down to palp + x7 + filler, or triple x7. Imperials have had spikes of OP stuff: prenerf cloak, palp (not that op prenerf, but may become an issue with future design), prenerf x7 (OP), tie/sf(not OP). It is either hit of miss with those spikes, and those spikes are needed in the first place since imperials don't have anything unique to them. Those spikes lead to players playing exclusively the OP stuff, which appears unhealthy since almost the same archetype is repeated over and over.

Reason 2: No diversity in viable ship costs, no unique mechanic or upgrade category to imperials.

Imperials have strong ship builds at around 33 points, namely any ace or a palp shuttle. This makes other point costs not that viable, since they won't fit with the other decent aces (exceptions are whisper deci and tie swarm, which shows how healthy diversifying costs can be). Also, as discussed in another thread, imperials lack anything unique to them.

Introducing an imperial-only mechanic would solve those issues. And FFG, subconsciously, has been implementing those on a limited level. Thus, the abundance of titles for underpowered stuff. But that is not enough (every title other than x7 or royal), enough (royal guard tie) or it is too good (x7). It is too hard design-wise to be patching what is ultimately, a Frankenstein monster .

Solution 2a:

FFG and/or the community, needs to come up with a flavor for imperials only, one that will rise the overall power level of imperials, and be unique to imperials. This mechanic needs to make point costs more diverse, and this will break the power spikes the imperials are ultimately doomed unless something this different is implemented. Flavor-wise, imperials are known for having high tech, training, resources and commanders.

-Release diverse ship costs. Since there is a lot below 30, add stuff above 30, avoid multiples or 30 or 35. Don't be afraid to release a 60 or 80 pt imperial ship.

-Game-wide effects or stuff that can be added to most ships:

Within current rules of the game:

A) Admirals: Game-wide effects that need a crew slot. May need a minimum ship size/cost.

Crew (Grand Admiral Thrawn): You may look at the opponent's movement dials anytime.

B) Admirals that give you cards (kylo and rex style)

Academy Training: Title. Imperial only. After you move, you can discard this card to turn your ship 180 or perform a barrel roll or boost action.

Formation tactics: When you have 3 non-unique ships in range 1 of each other, do X.

Pursuit tactics: Choose an enemy ship. Add one die when attacking it with non-unique ships. (not that broken with tie swarm if it requires a clunky admiral, or has to be discarded, etc.)

C) Experimental tech: Like cloaking device, adds some cool effect to the game. But keep it imperial only, please.

Experimental Hyperdrive. Modification. Imperial only. Instead of being deployed at the start of the game, you may deploy this ship anywhere in any facing (or maybe limited to facing your opponent straight or not past obstacles) at the end of the activation phase.

Experimental TIE. Modification. TIE only. Imperial only. Unique (to avoid having like 50 ships). Reduce the cost of this ship by 10. If this ship is destroyed, you lose the game.

Experimental Death Laser: Modification. Instead of attacking, choose an enemy ship inside the firing arc of other friendly ships equipped with this upgrade. Combine the attack dice of this ship and those friendly ships when making the attack, then discard all copies of this upgrade from all of your ships.

D) Emperor's Edict: rules-changing card.

Edict: Imperial Funds: When you play as imperial, you have 10 additional points to spend.

I like this solution as it forces a more diverse point cost and gives and edge without changing anything too much.

Edict: Research Grant: Upgrade cards cost (1) less, to a minimum of (0).

Edict: Recruitment Grant: Non-unique Pilots cost (1) less.

So basically, in order to not change stuff too much, we can have admirals that give you powerful effect cards (tactics, academy training, etc), and imperial only powerful experimental technology, all of those working to buff most existing imperial ships or creating new competitive archetypes. If a bolder step is required, the +10 point solution is one i like (maybe the new standard is matching lists to a 9 tie swarm).

Solution 2b: Do to the Empire what FFG does with rebels and scum

Add more synergy between imperial ships. As seen with rebels (biggs, sabine crew) and scum (jm5k, attanni), hope no ever increasing synergy links become broken or have the potential to become so broken they limit future design. Make and them more rebel and scum-like, add more cross-faction stuff (like boba fett, and some "rebels" spoilers). If every faction is OP, then no faction will appear to be OP.

Solution 2c: Keep patching the Frankenstein monster

An imperial-only slot available to all non-unique ships. (So this doesn't make strong aces more powerful than they need to be)

Like the categories "modification" or "title", this does not require the ship to explicitly have this slot in its upgrade bar. (This, like "titles", makes them backwards compatible)

So title-like, they might as well be titles. Apply more titles to every ship.

TL;DR:

FFG, Please add the restriction "small ships only" to attanni mindlink. As for imperials, give them around 10 extra points for their lists or make imperial-only and imperial-wide upgrade cards, because selectively making OP stuff for imperials does not work. Proposals are an 'admiral' crew flavour or an 'experimental' modification flavour.

Attanni mindlink: Limit two per squad.

Issue one is the best way, even if the card itself is into a large ship box.

But some people consider this as an incredible stupid maneuver, so...

2 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Attanni mindlink: Limit two per squad.

Or range limit. I just gave the deadeye solution because it is a test FFG needs to make for any future card that can be equipped to jm5k, since jm5k is their little Frankenstein monster (but fortunately, the game can survive healthily, with it, unlike what they are doing to imperials).

5 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Attanni mindlink: Limit two per squad.

So basically you are paying 2 points and 2 elite slots for giving 1 focus to a ship.

And still the stress drawback.

Jeez, from "great" to "unplayable".

Right now you pay 3 points and 3 elite slots to give two focuses to two ships with the stress drawback, and it's so good it's defining the top tiers of competition. Drop that benefit to only two ships and it's unplayable? I don't see it. It's still effectively PTL for one ship for one point less and no immediate stress.

Edit: The other benefit of my suggestion is that it doesn't break the distribution model. Two Attannis come with the Jumpmaster. Make it small ship only, and you're selling two useless cards with the expansion. This way it can still be used with the ship it comes with (Contracted Scout fixes being a different topic).

Edited by Hawkstrike
33 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

The other benefit of my suggestion is that it doesn't break the distribution model. Two Attannis come with the Jumpmaster. Make it small ship only, and you're selling two useless cards with the expansion. This way it can still be used with the ship it comes with (Contracted Scout fixes being a different topic).

I considered that, but for me, small ships only is the cleanest solution (with precedent in deadeye). Another solution is limiting its range to 2-3 (with precedent in manaroo, and jm5k wouldn't come with a useless upgrade). The range limit can hardly be called a nerf though since you can chain the range between ships, and could maybe abuse it to get red maneuvers out of range. It could probably be a buff.

Mindlink lists typically come with 3 ships (and unlimited range). Even though jm5k is the long term problem, some lists drop jm5k in favor of Assajj, that is why I don't like them on big bodies that can just chill. On a podcast, it was said that the problem with those lists is that you either consume your resources taking down Fenn first or (more reasonably) take out their supports first. The issue with large supports is that they are tough, so they can keep feeding Fenn for longer. If the range was reduced, the support ships would need to be in riskier positions, and if the size was limited, the support would melt down faster.

Edited by falveryn
typo

A range restriction is all that is required. I'd be happy with it out to R3; but that the 'receiving' ships have to be within range of the one performing the focus or receiving the stress; so as to prevent daisy chaining out across the board.

That way, you can also purposely avoid a specific ship receiving the stress if you plan your moves correctly. Keeps the cost benefit equation equal.

Edited by Dr Zoidberg

Most likely the nerf will be range 1 limit, forcing it into a swarm list niche card.

1 hour ago, Hawkstrike said:

Attanni mindlink: Limit two per squad.

That's stupid. That would beat the purpose of Attani mindlink!

5 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

That's stupid. That would beat the purpose of Attani mindlink!

"That's stupid." Fine constructive criticism there, thanks.

Why not? Two individuals, mindlinked, sharing abilities? Two cards come in the expansion, not three. Besides, from the lore:

Quote

The Attanni was a cybernetic implant used by the Aruzan species. These links were located behind the ears and were used to share emotions. When two Aruzans bonded for life, they conveyed their most intimate thoughts and dreams through the Attanni, which stripped away emotion and laid bare knowledge and memories to both parties within the link.

The name of the upgrade isn't "Aruzan Threesome" after all ...

Edited by Hawkstrike
1 hour ago, falveryn said:

FFG, Please add the restriction "small ships only" to attanni mindlink. As for imperials, give them around 10 extra points for their lists or make imperial-only and imperial-wide upgrade cards, because selectively making OP stuff for imperials does not work. Proposals are an 'admiral' crew flavour or an 'experimental' modification flavour.

That would not solve anything else than Manaroo and Asajj using them, so targeting two ships would be stupid nerf. Action activate so you could use only action bar actions has been the best idea so far.

Well FFG has offered TLT spamming for Imperial players so that will change things. I would just like to see some flares, kinda anti-chimps etc, save from alpha strikers, nothing too crazy though. Imperials might need some imps only upgrades.

5 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

"That's stupid." Fine constructive criticism there, thanks.

Why not? Two individuals, mindlinked, sharing abilities? Two cards come in the expansion, not three. Besides, from the lore:

The name of the upgrade isn't "Aruzan Threesome" after all ...

Well it beats the purpose of Attani mindlink and would kill it. Action activate so you could use only action bar actions, so far the best idea.

The best solution to Attanni already exists on Comm Relay.

"You can't have more than 1 Focus token."

1 minute ago, USCGrad90 said:

I counted 4 Attani lists in this SC out of 29 entries.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2877

Saw another SC where 1 and 2 were Palp aces.

Attani is powerful, but there are people figuring out better lists to beat it.

Im eager to see where this mindlink hunt will end up taking us. I'm still highly against the nerf, too early to see what's up with it anyway.

While the Empire's performance at Worlds was abysmal, the store championship results from the last week or so paint a very different story. Quite notably, TIE/Ds are starting to make waves. While I'm still not convinced that's enough to make them top tier competitive, I think the relative absence of high-ranking imperial players at Worlds was a result of the fact that there wasn't enough time to properly test new imperial builds and the top players brought whatever was safe instead (that is existing scum or rebel lists).

I do agree that it would be good to see point costs broken up more for imperials. Then again, rebels have a very similar problem with 20ish point range. Unless you want to bring a specialist (stressbot, Biggs and the like) for a very specific cost, you don't have very many viable options. At least now that TIE/Ds, Strikers and SFs are available there's quite a bit of choice for almost anything between 21 and 40-ish points.

As for the binary nature of imperial ships, there's a lot of truth in that. Originally they were designed to be elusive and hard to hit but fragile and prone to damage. Unfortunately between power creep and the proliferation of sources of damage that ignore green dice (Sabine-powered bombs in particular), traditional imperial ships became too risky to use. They were replaced with jouster ships such as Defenders and SFs, that can only do so much to outfly the enemy and mostly rely on pure stats and luck with dice to prevail. That is neither particularly fun nor does it give a skillful player very many opportunities to outthink the enemy. Compare it to the toys other factions have right now and most imperial lists seem somewhat bland and unrefined. Some people might be happy to see Soontir gone but I kinda miss the times where you flew a ship that could get destroyed by one good shot and the result of the game depended on your ability to never allow that shot to happen.

Limit mindlink to pilot skill 6 and lower.

Increase the contracted scouts point cost by 2 or remove its ept.

4 hours ago, Mangipan said:

The best solution to Attanni already exists on Comm Relay.

"You can't have more than 1 Focus token."

Interesting, certainly looks down some of the token stacking going on.

The imps doing well are aces or aces + tactician rhymer. They are still pigeonholed to the ~33 point cost. Note that stress lists just to counter attanni is the definition of an unhealthy meta. The meta itself is warped by its power, so everything else has to counter it.

As Lightrock pointed, it might be a bit too early to tell, and we may need some time for the meta to stabilize. Maybe the jousting lists are the counter to the stressors which counter the attannis. Metagame is basically rock-papers-scissors-(lizard-spock), with an eventual Nash equilibrium. The periodical waves and FAQ's shake up the meta.

I still hold my point that jm5k was a mistake that FFG can live with given caution, and that imperials need more general support (take a look at Jabba the Hut, something like that is what i was trying to convey with the admirals idea, maybe one that gives free extra munitions to all your ships, or whatever else). Point allowance increase may be too much of an stretch, work, and design limitation in hindsight. Aggressor+TLT gives us a sweet ~25 ish ship. More diverse cost and more support for all ships (less title shenanigans) will make a good turn for imperials imho.

6 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

The name of the upgrade isn't "Aruzan Threesome" after all ...

I am pretty sure I saw a movie called that though....