3 minutes ago, Darthain said:

1) Throwing red AA with Kallus means you can throw red black, that seems pretty useful to me, moreso than the Quasars battery, certainly./

2) Sloane will help AA for a few reasons - scatter aces will crash hard. If you spend an accuracy to spend their scatter, they cannot scatter that attack (defense tokens can only be spent once during an attack).

There are valid reasons to question if this was the intent of the ability, which are better left in the rules subforum for discussion. I will accept that this is the current ruling, but not that this is the intended function until stated clearly in an FAQ or by a developer.

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

There are valid reasons to question if this was the intent of the ability, which are better left in the rules subforum for discussion. I will accept that this is the current ruling, but not that this is the intended function until stated clearly in an FAQ or by a developer.

The card was playtested inside the framework of the RRG and was worded accordingly, no further clarification is required.

12 minutes ago, Darthain said:

The card was playtested inside the framework of the RRG and was worded accordingly, no further clarification is required.

So were Rapid Launch Bays.

12 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

This was a better argument before Fighter Coordination Teams made X-Wings effectively Speed 5.

3+1 isn't quite speed 5, but I'll grant the point that it is more than 4. Speed notwithstanding, though, if you let one X-wing that's going to zombify tie up your entire squadron force, I contend that the problem is not Rieekan.

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

3+1 isn't quite speed 5, but I'll grant the point that it is more than 4. Speed notwithstanding, though, if you let one X-wing that's going to zombify tie up your entire squadron force, I contend that the problem is not Rieekan.

I don't think it's that 1 X-Wing tied up the whole force, but that Biggs moves most damage to that X-Wing, which could by the end of the round have something like -17 hull, and the rest of the escort fighters are relatively intact.

48 minutes ago, NobodyInParticular said:

I don't think it's that 1 X-Wing tied up the whole force, but that Biggs moves most damage to that X-Wing, which could by the end of the round have something like -17 hull, and the rest of the escort fighters are relatively intact.

Ard said one xwing. By definition in this example you are using at least two.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Ard said one xwing. By definition in this example you are using at least two.

Yeah, but his initial comment was in response to Thraug, who said 100 TIEs would still only kill one Rieekan Escort per turn due to Biggs Shenanigans. So he was saying that Biggs just moves damage to that 1 escort, meaning that you can only ever kill one per turn, and Ard was saying why would all your TIEs be in range of just that escort. So my post was in an attempt to fix what I thought was a bit of miscommunication.

11 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

So were Rapid Launch Bays.

Lol.

Now the office is wondering why I'm laughing...

1 minute ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Yeah, but his initial comment was in response to Thraug, who said 100 TIEs would still only kill one Rieekan Escort per turn due to Biggs Shenanigans. So he was saying that Biggs just moves damage to that 1 escort, meaning that you can only ever kill one per turn, and Ard was saying why would all your TIEs be in range of just that escort. So my post was in an attempt to fix what I thought was a bit of miscommunication.

Ard is pointing out that the distance one radius of a single xwing shouldnt be enough to tarpit an entire swarm of faster squadrons.

Also if we get to assume FCT's on the rebel side having that xwing alpha in, then why dont we get to assume FCT's, Squall, Vector, or Intel on the imperial side?

And of course if its not jumping in, then Ards broader, "why jump an alpha of ties in to kill one xwing that will zombie" remains uncontested.

3 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Ard is pointing out that the distance one radius of a single xwing shouldnt be enough to tarpit an entire swarm of faster squadrons.

Also if we get to assume FCT's on the rebel side having that xwing alpha in, then why dont we get to assume FCT's, Squall, Vector, or Intel on the imperial side?

And of course if its not jumping in, then Ards broader, "why jump an alpha of ties in to kill one xwing that will zombie" remains uncontested.

We are assuming everyone is a bad player with Ties so Rieekan aces looks even stronger. Obviously Rieekan aces is soooo powerful, that zombie Biggs is tanking damage from the game next to you! That's how good Rieekan aces is. It literally dominates every game during every round so Rebels always win. In fact, you can FCT your X-Wings into your buddies game because that's how far FCT allows you to move. Technically you never leave the board. You're just on a different one.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Ard is pointing out that the distance one radius of a single xwing shouldnt be enough to tarpit an entire swarm of faster squadrons.

Also if we get to assume FCT's on the rebel side having that xwing alpha in, then why dont we get to assume FCT's, Squall, Vector, or Intel on the imperial side?

And of course if its not jumping in, then Ards broader, "why jump an alpha of ties in to kill one xwing that will zombie" remains uncontested.

Again, the point Thraug was making (as I understand it) is that no matter what escorts you target, be it 1 or 6, because a good player will have kept them in range of Biggs, only one will die. He was not suggesting that all 100 TIEs would target just one X-Wing. But if Biggs only moves 1 point of damage, then if your TIEs did 2, doesn't that mean the after 10 hits the attacked X-Wing would go down, Biggs or no? In that case Thraug would be mistaken, but I am not sure.

As to why you would jump in a bunch of TIEs to zombie one X-Wing, I don't rightly know why. Though if those TIEs were Interceptors with Howlrunner and Dengar, then 1) they'd likely kill the Escorts faster, and 2) their counter is as good as a standard attack, so it's not too big a loss to have them be attacked. . . unless the Zombies are the only ones attacking. . .

1 hour ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Again, the point Thraug was making (as I understand it) is that no matter what escorts you target, be it 1 or 6, because a good player will have kept them in range of Biggs, only one will die. He was not suggesting that all 100 TIEs would target just one X-Wing. But if Biggs only moves 1 point of damage, then if your TIEs did 2, doesn't that mean the after 10 hits the attacked X-Wing would go down, Biggs or no? In that case Thraug would be mistaken, but I am not sure.

As to why you would jump in a bunch of TIEs to zombie one X-Wing, I don't rightly know why. Though if those TIEs were Interceptors with Howlrunner and Dengar, then 1) they'd likely kill the Escorts faster, and 2) their counter is as good as a standard attack, so it's not too big a loss to have them be attacked. . . unless the Zombies are the only ones attacking. . .

Everybody else pretty well explained my point. I recognize that Biggs is good, and Jan is good, and Haven is good, and Rieekan is good--I've been playing against these combos since Wave 2, and in each successive wave as it's gotten better and better. But it's not unbeatable, and a big part of beating it (apart from the Mothma MC30 counter ) is to disrupt the interplay between ships and squadrons. It's a combined arms list, and it's powerful in the hands of someone who uses their ships and squadrons well together. Break that link and it falls apart.

If he keeps his squadrons under the Haven umbrella, threaten him from range. I'm pretty sure that, from a design perspective, the reason Imps got Rhymer in the first place was to counter the GH fortress, and he works well to force those fighters out: threaten GH directly with your bombers, from outside its bubble and from a direction other than the one it wants to go to. This will either draw the fighters out of the GH bubble to attack your very robust bombers, at which point you can ambush them with Interceptors or whatever; or it will eventually pop the carrier, after which those rebel fighters get a lot less robust.

Haven/Biggs/Jan is a powerful directly-defensive bubble, no doubt. But your ISD or Raider AS with Howlrunner/Dengar/Interceptors is a powerful counter-offensive bubble. Threaten him to give him the choice between engaging your squadrons on your terms or dealing with your superior ships up close. Break his combined arms with combined arms of your own.

I see a lot of people get overly aggressive with the Imperial squadrons because they hit hard, which is just the opposite of how they should be used in most force-on-force situations. Protect those fragile hulls by counter-threatening, not by charging in. Good imperial vs rebel squadron play is sometimes very cagey. Set traps, use that nasty ISD or Demolisher threat to force him to come to you.

Of course, I've been primarily addressing the Gallant Haven variant here, because it's really the only one that's that hard to break with force-on-force squadrons. Against the Pelta RLB variant, treat the Pelta as you would Demolisher. If you don't have an answer to that, 1) your list or tactics probably need work, and 2) use picket squadrons of you don't think your chin can weather the Pelta strike. In that scenario, again, hold the majority of your fighter support in reserve, ready to pounce once the Pelta had disgorged all bombers

The Admonition variant is a whole different fight imo, so it doesn't tie in much. It's a much more offensive list--the key of the list is to counter threaten ships with Admonition to protect the squadrons. This variant rarely has a strong squadron alpha strike ability due to its lack of a large carrier, rather going for efficiency of activations. So force him to break up his squadrons and then jump on them halfway through.

Sorry I got rambly. The squadron game is just so deep and complex and full of what-ifs that it's hard to talk about concrete, generalized tactics, so I often abstract it so much that it comes out sounding like nothing more than "git gud." I would say that the best way to figure out squadrons is to play them a lot--probably more so than ships, really.

But the point is, with good positioning and timing, you should be able to avoid wasting all of your shots on one zombie squadron. If you find that not to be true, go back and reassess your game. You only have control of yourself, so try to find what specifically you did that caused you to fall into that trap, and what you can do to avoid that mistake next time.

"While a friendly squadron without Rogue is attacking, it may spend 1 die with an icon to choose and spend 1 of the defender's defense tokens. While attacking a ship, it may also reroll 1 die with a icon."

So can you spend a token already spent and burn it? and does the defense effect work for the defender if the attacker spends it?

32 minutes ago, ouzel said:

"While a friendly squadron without Rogue is attacking, it may spend 1 die with an icon to choose and spend 1 of the defender's defense tokens. While attacking a ship, it may also reroll 1 die with a icon."

So can you spend a token already spent and burn it? and does the defense effect work for the defender if the attacker spends it?

You can spend to discard a token. Not sure about if they get the effect.

10 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Not sure about if they get the effect.

No.

RRG pg DEFENSE TOKENS said:

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

Neither of these is the case; the defender does not get the effect.

18 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No.

Neither of these is the case; the defender does not get the effect.

I didn't think so, but I'm not in front of an easy way to reference the rules so didn't want to spread misinformation. Thanks!

Ard is a walking rules reference. LOL

18 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

Ard is a walking rules reference. LOL

I may or may not have a shortcut to the PDF on my phone's main menu...

I'm glad for @Ardaedhel's longer post up above as he "gets it" where Imperial squadrons are concerned. I see inexperienced Imperial players just charging their TIE Fighters straight ahead all the time. They figure since the TIEs are faster than their Rebel equivalents and more offensively powerful, they should just run straight at their opponent's squadrons as fast as possible. The TIEs get in one punch, maybe two, before Rebel squadrons and flak chew them to pieces. This kind of approach is particularly extra bad when the Gallant Haven is concerned (as the Imperial player is at an even stronger disadvantage just going straight after the other player's squadrons). After the TIEs are destroyed the Imperial player complains to me that TIEs suck and aren't worth ever using and FFG really screwed up their design and I do my best to keep my eyes from rolling right out of my head. Honestly, one of the two original impetuses for me starting up Cannot Get Your Ship Out with @geek19 was so I could get all my TIE Fighter advice in one place because I found myself defending them so frequently (speaking of which, I should get some Vassal illustrations in there...).

As it relates to the Quasar, the TIE counter-punch (or preemptive pounce, depending) aided by Howlrunner and Flight Controllers en masse is a thing of beauty. Normally you're giving up a lot (points, upgrade slots, command dials on a mixed-role ship) decking out an ISD (or to for a lighter version, a VSD) to be a super-carrier that can accomplish that. The Quasar doesn't mind - that's what it's here for. Being able to activate 4-6 buffed fighter squadrons in one go is a great way to destroy a lot of enemy squadrons, which reduces their number attacking back, which keeps your TIEs surviving to keep beating up on enemy squadrons in a kind of snowball effect. Gozantis are more cost-effective, but 4 TIE Fighters activating in one go is more than twice as good as 2 TIE Fighters being activated in two different activations.

That's not even getting into a Quasar-II potentially going with Kallus+Ruthless Strategists for some quality flakking or any of the quite-good titles available to the Quasar. The flak and auto-damage effects (like Ruthless Strategists or Mauler Mithel) in particular are good against Rieekan Ace Holes - small packets of damage from light attacks will still usually "stick" to all but scatter aces (as the damage is low but still does at least 1 damage, and the scatter aces need to decide if it's worth scattering 1 damage or saving that scatter for later) and the auto-ping from Mithel and Ruthless Strategists ignores defense tokens and Biggs' ability entirely. The Ace Holes are hoping that your only meaningful attacks against them are going to go into their Escort squadron of choice (with Jan and/or Biggs around) and/or that you get stuck on Tycho for a round or two. Effectively, they're hoping to win the squadron mini-game by tightly controlling your legal attack targets through clever use of zombie squadrons and when a lot of your squadron activations have been "wasted" and theirs haven't, they clearly come out ahead. Flak and Mauler and the like allow you to start winnowing down their total HP pool to the point where their crucial fighter zombie aces die about a turn earlier than otherwise and once your fighters can go after other prey, they're not going up against yet another completely healthy ace. Granted, Flechettes (Raiders!) are the ideal form of flak here (waste their squadrons' time just like they're wasting yours!) but anything helps.

Oh, and the Quasar is a great place to put Chiraneau. Tired of getting stuck on that one perfectly-placed Tycho or zombie Wedge or whatever? Chiraneau can tell that big mob of Flight-Controller-aided squadrons that they still get to move up to speed 2. That should be enough to allow you to attack meaningful rather than zombie targets or at the very least get a head start on moving away from zombie Tycho to go after other targets next turn rather than sitting still in space staring at a 0 HP Counter 2 squadron rather than attacking something.

23 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

If he keeps his squadrons under the Haven umbrella, threaten him from range. I'm pretty sure that, from a design perspective, the reason Imps got Rhymer in the first place was to counter the GH fortress, and he works well to force those fighters out: threaten GH directly with your bombers, from outside its bubble and from a direction other than the one it wants to go to.

Interesting - now that the Empire has an even larger Gallant bubble of their own (and can even sit Rhymer down inside it), maybe we should expect some sort of (anti-squadron only?) range boost for Rebel squadrons in Wave VII? (or even in the Hammerhead box...? Nah, probably not)

IE, an upgrade (MC-75 title / Commander Raddus?) that gives out a bubble of psuedo-snipe, or gives Snipe range +1 ala Dengar. Would counter Rieekan zombie escort/intel, perhaps a bit too directly.

2 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Oh, and the Quasar is a great place to put Chiraneau. Tired of getting stuck on that one perfectly-placed Tycho or zombie Wedge or whatever? Chiraneau can tell that big mob of Flight-Controller-aided squadrons that they still get to move up to speed 2. That should be enough to allow you to attack meaningful rather than zombie targets or at the very least get a head start on moving away from zombie Tycho to go after other targets next turn rather than sitting still in space staring at a 0 HP Counter 2 squadron rather than attacking something.

I liked your post when I first started reading it, and then tried to like it again when I got to this part.

I'm so excited to start fully playing around with all of the Imp toys and figure out some great combos.

3 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

I liked your post when I first started reading it, and then tried to like it again when I got to this part.

I'm so excited to start fully playing around with all of the Imp toys and figure out some great combos.

Jokes on you, I'M bringing Ketsu Onyo (said no one.....)

And the problem I've seen with Chiraneau is that i've seen a lot of people just use him instead of Intel. That.... doesn't help you escape a blob of fighters dropped well to inconvenience your bombers. Just, be careful with that, as it doesn't solve ALL your problems I've found.

True. But Chiraneau is Mauler's best buddy!

8 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Jokes on you, I'M bringing Ketsu Onyo (said no one.....)

Trufax. Ketsu's just too pricey for my tastes for a relatively niche ability. Mostly only good if your meta is Intel-heavy and/or if all of your own squadrons are heavy.

Quote

And the problem I've seen with Chiraneau is that i've seen a lot of people just use him instead of Intel. That.... doesn't help you escape a blob of fighters dropped well to inconvenience your bombers. Just, be careful with that, as it doesn't solve ALL your problems I've found.

Oh yeah, if you're going for a bomber-heavy big squadron investment, Intel does more for you than Chiraneau. Absolutely not disagreeing with you that by himself he's insufficient as an Intel replacement. He's much more useful for fighter squadrons or mixed-role squadrons than for dedicated bombers.

Just now, Snipafist said:

Trufax. Ketsu's just too pricey for my tastes for a relatively niche ability. Mostly only good if your meta is Intel-heavy and/or if all of your own squadrons are heavy.

Ketsu combines GREAT with YV-666s. What's that, wrong side? Wommmmmmmmp. And the Rebels don't really have a Heavy Fighter squadron/murder platform? Womp again! She combines great with Tien Numb (who's half her speed) and also YT-1300s (again, half her speed). So I have issues running her, sadly.