20 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

So, as a firm squadron enthusiast (I remember back in the wave 1 300pt days I was running 3 Nebulon-Bs coordinating 3 X-Wings and 4 B-Wings), I've noticed 4 basic types of squadron bids.

Casual Bid- The casual bid is something you'll see a lot from newer players. It usually has a mix of fighters and bombers, but rarely has a clear focus or the resources to make the most of its squadrons.

Zero Bid- Essentially this is the player saying "screw it" and going all in on being able to break enemy carriers before their presence can be felt. It's more viable than its given credit for even in the current meta, but requires a number of concessions and a firm knowledge going in of its limitations.

Speedbump Bid- The bid for players who don't want to play squadrons, but don't want to die to squadrons either. The speedbump is the zero bid's little brother, but in order to use a Speedbump Bid properly you have to break yourself of one illusion, that being that these squadrons are not there to do damage, so their placement shouldn't be focused on enabling their attack, but simply making hostile attack more difficult.

Carrier Bid- Once you've spent well over a quarter of your points in fighters, you're conceding, at least on a tacit level, that those squadrons need to do work and make their presence felt. By extension, this usually means space is made on your ships for making these more effective (Various titles, Flight Controllers, FCTs, Bomber Commands), so you're usually spending way more than 134 points on squadrons, but only 134 is on the squadron themselves.

The Casual Bid is the weakest of the batch. A full Carrier Bid will roll over it and still deliver ordinance on target and it rarely has the dedicated resources to power through a Speedbump Bid before the ships they're acting as a speedbump for have already made their money. the Zero Bid typically doesn't fare that bad into a causal bid as, even with how efficient bombers can be, as there typically aren't the numbers or support to make up for the squadrons that far less effective against ships.

The Zero Bid fares well into a Speedbump Bid because typically both of these fleets are trying to do the same thing, but the Zero Bid didn't blow points on squadrons that may contribute minor damage if you're even feeling like coordinating them. Basically, the Speedbump Bid is playing down in points into the match-up which is not impossible to overcome as it's rarely above 50-60pts (maybe an extra ship), but it's not terribly favorable. The Zero Bid is very much an all or nothing into Carrier Bids. You're either going to get completely wrecked, or you're going to be able to take out the carriers and leave before the squadrons can make the difference. This approach really doesn't work with unmaneuverable fleets where you basically have no option, but to fly into the meatgrinder and the Carrier Bid can easily guess where to drop their squadrons for the ambush.

The Speedbump Bid is fairly common, but rarely has the desired effect. As discussed, it can work into Casual Bids, but it's been very rare when playing a Carrier Bid that the squadrons a Speedbump Bid throws out have been anything but an ancillary source of getting VPs for me. I've heard the quote "they only need to buy a turn or two", but in a dedicated Carrier Bid, it rarely even does that much and even when it manages to buy a turn, the squadrons from a Carrier Bid typically has the buffs to make their presence felt incredibly fast, so even it manages that it may not be enough.

The Carrier Bid, based on pure math is the strongest, but has a number of weaknesses based on external factors. The formation of a Carrier Bid will make or break it pretty quickly and if the enemy threatens envelopment, you have to make some hard and fast choices about where to allocate resources. Against someone who knows how to run a Carrier Bid, it can certainly seem like everything is always where it needs to be, but observe less experienced players flying it and the cracks in the armor become apparent very fast. Relay can allow for a little more freedom, but presents it's own problem i.e. if the relay dies, squadrons that were relying on it can get stranded and be rendered far less effective for the rest of the game. Basically, you're not just throwing 134pts in squadrons and calling it a day, you're building a dedicated fleet to make those squadrons do all of your work, so it requires the most considerations from a listbuilding standpoint of any of the bids.

This is a killer assessment, good read.

Zero Bid all day long!

On 22 May 2017 at 0:02 AM, MasterShake2 said:

So, as a firm squadron enthusiast (I remember back in the wave 1 300pt days I was running 3 Nebulon-Bs coordinating 3 X-Wings and 4 B-Wings), I've noticed 4 basic types of squadron bids.

Casual Bid- The casual bid is something you'll see a lot from newer players. It usually has a mix of fighters and bombers, but rarely has a clear focus or the resources to make the most of its squadrons.

Zero Bid- Essentially this is the player saying "screw it" and going all in on being able to break enemy carriers before their presence can be felt. It's more viable than its given credit for even in the current meta, but requires a number of concessions and a firm knowledge going in of its limitations.

Speedbump Bid- The bid for players who don't want to play squadrons, but don't want to die to squadrons either. The speedbump is the zero bid's little brother, but in order to use a Speedbump Bid properly you have to break yourself of one illusion, that being that these squadrons are not there to do damage, so their placement shouldn't be focused on enabling their attack, but simply making hostile attack more difficult.

Carrier Bid- Once you've spent well over a quarter of your points in fighters, you're conceding, at least on a tacit level, that those squadrons need to do work and make their presence felt. By extension, this usually means space is made on your ships for making these more effective (Various titles, Flight Controllers, FCTs, Bomber Commands), so you're usually spending way more than 134 points on squadrons, but only 134 is on the squadron themselves.

The Casual Bid is the weakest of the batch. A full Carrier Bid will roll over it and still deliver ordinance on target and it rarely has the dedicated resources to power through a Speedbump Bid before the ships they're acting as a speedbump for have already made their money. the Zero Bid typically doesn't fare that bad into a causal bid as, even with how efficient bombers can be, as there typically aren't the numbers or support to make up for the squadrons that far less effective against ships.

The Zero Bid fares well into a Speedbump Bid because typically both of these fleets are trying to do the same thing, but the Zero Bid didn't blow points on squadrons that may contribute minor damage if you're even feeling like coordinating them. Basically, the Speedbump Bid is playing down in points into the match-up which is not impossible to overcome as it's rarely above 50-60pts (maybe an extra ship), but it's not terribly favorable. The Zero Bid is very much an all or nothing into Carrier Bids. You're either going to get completely wrecked, or you're going to be able to take out the carriers and leave before the squadrons can make the difference. This approach really doesn't work with unmaneuverable fleets where you basically have no option, but to fly into the meatgrinder and the Carrier Bid can easily guess where to drop their squadrons for the ambush.

The Speedbump Bid is fairly common, but rarely has the desired effect. As discussed, it can work into Casual Bids, but it's been very rare when playing a Carrier Bid that the squadrons a Speedbump Bid throws out have been anything but an ancillary source of getting VPs for me. I've heard the quote "they only need to buy a turn or two", but in a dedicated Carrier Bid, it rarely even does that much and even when it manages to buy a turn, the squadrons from a Carrier Bid typically has the buffs to make their presence felt incredibly fast, so even it manages that it may not be enough.

The Carrier Bid, based on pure math is the strongest, but has a number of weaknesses based on external factors. The formation of a Carrier Bid will make or break it pretty quickly and if the enemy threatens envelopment, you have to make some hard and fast choices about where to allocate resources. Against someone who knows how to run a Carrier Bid, it can certainly seem like everything is always where it needs to be, but observe less experienced players flying it and the cracks in the armor become apparent very fast. Relay can allow for a little more freedom, but presents it's own problem i.e. if the relay dies, squadrons that were relying on it can get stranded and be rendered far less effective for the rest of the game. Basically, you're not just throwing 134pts in squadrons and calling it a day, you're building a dedicated fleet to make those squadrons do all of your work, so it requires the most considerations from a listbuilding standpoint of any of the bids.

Nice write up, I think your missing one type of bid, the focused bid, this is where an individual has a bid with a very specific Job. It's almost like a casual bid but is instead well thought out to support a specific type of list/stratagy. This would include lists such as: a bid that supports "strategic" for missions, an escort for instigator ( not a speed bump, but an adjunct of how instigator works), a Jedon/steale nose punch etc.

Cant talk for the imperials, in the rebel side I suggest you to try:

• -2 B wings (more than enough to do the bombing rounds if you fly along with Yavaris).
• -Dutch Vander is a must for both, bombing and super effective agains squadrons. For me is the best quality/cost fighter in the rebel faction.
• -3 Xwings as screen and anti-fighter.
• -Jan Ors for extra survivability of your X-wings and eventually to grant the bombing of your B's.
• -Tycho as lone wolf to tap Rhymer balls or separeted from intel bombers or priority targets.

-You've got 16 points left wich you can use to improve one of your B's to Ten Numb for extra anti-fighter or Keyan for extra Bombing. Swap one of your X with Biggs for extra survivavility or Wedge for extra anti-fighter. Or just include 2 headhunters for extra screening and have an extra deployment with a total of 10 squadrons in the table.

6 hours ago, Jondavies72 said:

Nice write up, I think your missing one type of bid, the focused bid, this is where an individual has a bid with a very specific Job. It's almost like a casual bid but is instead well thought out to support a specific type of list/stratagy. This would include lists such as: a bid that supports "strategic" for missions, an escort for instigator ( not a speed bump, but an adjunct of how instigator works), a Jedon/steale nose punch etc.

The focused bid is simply a speedbump by a different name (or the speedbump is a focused bid by a different name). Both of them have only a moderate investment with a very narrow goal and that goal is not killing capital ships or winning the squadron fight.

Every standard squadron in the game have a role to fill and you will realize that quickly after some experimentation. The death-ball fighter cluster is a very pointless exercise and more often than not end in disaster against someone with just a bit of tactical acumen and a balanced force.

I take pride in winning as many of my games as possible and don't care if I win them with a great margin... for me it is always about doing my best to win not to score the most points. It also feels like a more realistic goal even though it would never get you far in a tournament. It's not that I like to win because I'm as far removed at being a competitive player. I just like the tactical challenge and do my best. A general whose goal is to kill as many enemy soldiers at the price of gaining the objective will never get very far in his career.

I have found that mixing your squadrons and utilizing your resources wisely will get you a very good result, that means a good mix of fighter, bombers and pick a healthy mix of escort, bombers and counter fighters and in case of the Empire just plain Tie-fighters. Focusing on expensive Ace combinations are very risky, personally I don't take risks I rather win with smaller margins and win all the time rather then go big (either way). Smart utilization of cheaper wings mixed with some strong ones are more effective in general. Use of obstacles and ships in conjunction with your fighters are pivotal in any game that is why the one focus deal rarely work well in general.

I find that the use of escorts and counter fighters is pivotal in how you can beat an enemy. Many players usually throw in escorts and have them soak up all damage when that is a bad way of using them, mainly because they often are pretty expansive for their hull points. Instead you put them behind your bombers so the enemy must divide their fire against both escorts and bombers or place their fighters out of position to just focus fire a single bomber, that is why you take a significant number of bombers, they are usually cheap (Y-Wings and Tie-Bombers). Counter type fighter are usually very fast and should use that advantage to go for exposed flanks and isolate singe enemy fighters.

If there are bombers you should try and avoid hitting them first, you primary concern is almost always your opponents god fighters such as Tie-fighters, Interceptors, X-Wings, A-Wings. You make sure to put counter fighters against bombers if necessary, they get most out of they counter trikes that way but getting rid of the enemy fighters is most the higher priority.

As the Empire you MUST rely on large activation to make good use of swarm and numbers and the aggressiveness of the Tie-fighter. The Rebels need to rely on careful and good use of obstacles and they are better at that since they usually have fewer and more expensive squadrons. The Empire should still use obstacles to hedge their bets as much as possible.

Players who engage early (turn two) will rarely succeed because they rely on the dice and it will almost always find themselves in a very bad positioning. You must learn to plan ahead several turns or you will never win consistently or make a good carrier commander in this game.

Stay focused on your primary objective to score points and deny point for you opponent and don't engage if you don't have to when you are in the lead... that is important overall tip to win games (not tournaments).

In my opinion list building depends heavily on if you want to win tournament or just win games in general... tournaments are very much about meta gaming. Anyone who brings a list that breaks the meta in a tournament and happens to be a good counter (and is a good player) have a VERY good chance of winning even if they lose a game or draw a few, while someone who win every game but with less decisive results don't even finish in the top five. So... are you building a list to win or to score as much as possible over the course of many games?