Played our first "learning game" of Runewars tonight, and one thing that came up; Say I have 8 units in an area, and am attacked. The necromancers draw two special ability cards, resulting in the creation of four more units of reanimated dudes.

1) Do these new units not get created because of the normal limit of 8?

2) If 1), would it have made a difference if I were the attacker, since the attacker can exceed the normal limit of 8?

3) If not 1), Do these units immediately get destroyed at the end of the battle, or do I have until the beginning of winter to disperse them?

4) Would the new units get created, but I would immediately be forced to destroy all units in excess of 8 as per the movement rules?

The rules aren't entirely clear on this point, as it only talks about moving units into an area, or recruiting them in an area that causes said area to exceed the limit of 8. There isn't a section I could find with a general rule about the troop limits. Maybe that's cause it's late and my head is full ;-)

Any rulings you could suggest would be most appreciated.

They'd still get created and after the combat if you had more than 8 units you'd have to lose units down to 8 again.

I disagree; the rules state that the only time you can exceed the stacking limit is when you are attacking. Thus, I would say, from my interpretation, that the defender cannot have more than 8 units, and so the reanimates added cannot be added if it would put them above 8.

Also, since unless I missed something, adding reanimates is not "recruiting", you cannot voluntarily get rid of other units to make room (or scrap reanimates elsewhere if you are running low).

"unofficially", it's like a form or recruiting, I guess. (we have to see what the true answer is!)

sigmazero13 said:

Wrong. The Units participating in the battle are NOT in the area on the game board but are next to it, resolving the battle. Thus the Unit limit does NOT

apply and the Reanimates are added even if this raises the number of Units above 8.

BTW: The attacker may overstack anyways

When the attacker wins the battle, he must retreat (if possible) excess units in the area or destroy them. If the defender wins, he must retreat all of his

Units to ONE adjacent empty or friendly hex, and after that destroy down to the limit of 8.

This seems to lead to a disadvantage for the defender. If the defender were the one to raise the Reanimates, he could use them for the battle just

as well but he wouldn't get to retreat them after battle and thus lose them.

Chancellor of Sol said:

Wow, that's some mighty fancy rules lawyering there.

Just because the units aren't physically on the board doesn't mean they aren't considered to be in the area during the combat resolution. The only reason you take them off the board is to line 'em up for initiative.

I don't see anything in the rulebook that says "units participating in battle are not considered to be in the area on the game board".

sigmazero13 said:

I concur with Sigma. If the rules explicilty allow the attacker to overstack but don't say the same for the defender, then the defender cannot overstack. This is in keeping with other rules I've seen that give the attacker the advantage, and in line with FFG's established policy of trying to prevent turtle tactics and keep the game moving through offensive strategies.

@ Sol:

The fact that you move figures off the map to do battle does not mean they've "left the area" and are therefore exempt from normal rules. Even if you insist on drawing this line in the sand about figures involved in the battle no longer being in the area, I'm not aware of any rules that say the defender can overstack provided his figures aren't on the map. You're assuming the lack of rules for figures off the map means you can break the existing rules for figures on the map. By that logic, I can say that if you ever have a figure off the map, I immediately win. It has as much basis in the rules as your statement.

A player may never have more than eight of his units in an area
(including allied neutral units). If a player moves units into an area
causing it to contain more than eight units, he must destroy units
until he has eight or fewer in the area.

At the very least you would be able to create them but immediately destroy other units down to 8 (the necromancers?).

Page 18:

"If a player moves units into an area
causing it to contain more than eight units, he must destroy units
until he has eight or fewer in the area.
The only time a player can exceed this number is when he is starting
a battle in an enemy or neutral area, in which case he may bring any
number of units into the battle."

I think this allows the attacker to raise the Reanimates regardless of other troops, even if you rule that units fighting a battle are still "in the area".

Since this exception is only made for attacks, you say the defender may not overstack that way.

This depends solely on whether you consider Units participating in the battle as "in the area" or not.

I admit, I am not 100% certain, if the Units are truly not in the area or are just physically next to the game board, but still considered "in the area".

I can't find any rule clarifying that, that's why I considered them not to be "in the area".

Can anyone find a rule clarifying that ?

PS: Don't be offended by my posts. Sometimes, when I am quite certain about something, I tend to hold it as a cast-iron truth. I don't mean to annoy

anybody or imply that they are stupid or who-knows-what. I am here solely to find out about the intended rules, together with other players, i.e. You.

Just trying to bring some light to the darkness....

personally i hope they allow necromancer summoned reanimates to overstack in battle, and then fall apart if overstacked when the battle is done (unless attacking, in which case they retreat).

It just makes more sense and is more thematic. And necromancers should not be punished just because they trigger their special ability and have a big army.

I agree, though I think the necro ability is incredibly powerful as it is. I would rather have 2 additional troops that can still draw cards than the ability to kill 2 triangles or one box or to force one unit to retreat. I'm not saying the other "casters" are not good, and do not intend a flame war about their relitave merits...

I think the rules make sense as they are.

When you attack you can go over the 8-unit limit, when you defend you don't -> this is to stimulate offense.

Keep in mind Defense already has the advantage of winning Strength ties and having Strongholds to help out ( that's 5 strength for zero units )

So, a Necromancer can use its ability on defense but if the army goes over 8 units he has to kill the surplus units off.

I'm quite sure it's a balance issue as well.

Imagine an Undead Stronghold with about 4 Necromancers and 4 Reanimates guarding it -> that's strength 13 already.

Imagine having 2 or 4 more Reanimates pop-up. Strength 15 - 17 , anyone ?

How are you ever going to have a serious chance of dislodging that ?

My point : allowing the undead to go over the 8-unit limit on defense would give them a too strong advantage that the other races don't have.

Chancellor of Sol said:

I doubt very much there is a rule that would clarify that. Most board games don't bother to define what happens to game components that are outside the play area. My point stands, however. Whether or not the units are considered to be "in the area" there is nothing that says it's okay for the defender to break the rules if they are "outside the area." So either they are "in the area" and the stacking limits apply, or they are not "in the area" in which case the rules do not define anything, for or against the stacking limit. In that case we must make an assumption (or pester Corey to death with silly questions.) It would make more sense to assume that the stacking limit remains in effect than to say it stops applying just because the rules don't define it again.

Forcing a corner case and then claiming the rule no longer apply because they aren't explicitly mentioned for this specific scenario opens the door to all sorts of shenanigans, as I tried to illustrate in my last post. Personally, I think you're trying too hard to find a loophole to reach a ruling which isn't supported by the rules.

Chancellor of Sol said:

I for one wasn't offended, and I hope you weren't offended by my response, either. I'm sure we all know how text-based communication can make things sound harsher than they were intended. No hard feelings, right? =)

Anyone sent this in for an official response?

I can still see it going either way.

Yes, I sent in a question a few days ago, and haven't received an answer yet.

I just got an answer (amongst a whole slew of them I sent). Here it is:

Q: Is the Defender of a battle bound by the 8-unit stacking limit? Specifically, this would apply to the Necromancer; if the defender's army has 8 units already, and pulls an Orb, would the use of the ability force the Defender to destroy units back down to 8?

A: Any player may exceed the limit of 8 units during a battle. At the end of the battle, the defender would need to destroy any units in excess of 8.

Not what I thought it would be, but I can see how it "makes sense", too.

Good to know. Thanks for asking these questions. My game on Saturday will greatly benefit (assuming the blizzard does not hit...)