Hi all

Just wanted to quickly post to ask how people tend to run crafting at their games. I was wondering about making the acquisition of materials more interesting (i.e. breaking it down into a few specific components that have to be acquired). I absolutely understand why FFG decided not to do this, but I've found that crafting can be a bit soulless when the player just says "I pay X for the parts, and make a crafting check". Might not be worth fiddling with, but I just thought I'd ask to see if anyone has tinkered with this area at all.

Relatedly, are there any other games out there with actually good crafting systems? Would be interested to read how other games deal with this.

Thanks in advance.

I allow players to take the material costs (although with appropriate acquisition tests and etc if they're rare enough to warrant that), but if they want to seek out appropriate parts through roleplay, I'll definitely allow that to waive/reduce costs. The cyberneticist in my party is currently stripping apart old CIS droid remains to put together bionic limbs, which I think is a cool idea. Adds more flavour to the final product too.

I have taken to making purchasable crafting materials harder to acquire while simultaneously allowing for more harvesting opportunities. My motivation was simple. I got tired of constantly having to restrict my crafters downtime for fear of them making insane gear at a fraction of the price.

My solution was to put them in an area without a local Star Wars Radioshack and restrict crafting that way. At the same time, I started offering him some custom crafting schematics and superior crafting materials as rewards. The idea was to take back some of the control of what rewards my party was getting while making them feel like they were getting cooler stuff. That way I could subtly nudge my crafter player into making more utility items and less crazy OP crap. Cloth that, if used to make light armor, will grant an upgrade to stealth checks. A focusing crystal that increases the difficulty of blaster crafting check by one but adds knockdown. Schematics for making light armor with a built in holographic costume. Plus all of materials reduce the crafting material cost by some amount.

So far I've been pretty happy with the results. The player has been spending his time crafting cooler things rather than just more damage more soak gear. Plus, now I am able to reduce the credit rewards I'm paying out by providing alternatives. As an unexpected side bonus, two of my players have taken to boosting some unlikely skills in an effort to have a better chance at running down some rarer crafting requirements.

It's kills me a little inside to say this, but I borrow the idea from MMO crafting systems. Generally I go out of the way to keep my games from feeling like a videogame but so far I've been pretty happy with the results.

I've found running things serialized is enough suppressive effect on the MMO mentality. There simply is little downtime to play assembly line crafter boredom.

I've also found the bulk of the crafting by running things serialized has been more about filling a sudden need like, 'Hey, I got my leg shot off' or 'We really could use a recon droid' or 'AHHHHHHHHH, My eyes! My eyes! AHHHHHHHHHH' that sorta thing. So they've ended up fixing problems with crafting as opposed to stacking leet gear.

Also I've found if you don't soft shoe your attacks on PCs, I mean you really hammer the **** out of them, they tend to realize even with a great blaster and great armor, when run the F away presents itself as an option, it's a good option. That also takes some of the impetus away from thinking the greatest blaster means I can stand and fight anywhere all the time.

Which in the end means I don't really sweat materials at all, as most of the time they are junking something else to scavenge parts for their idea or need.

4 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I've found running things serialized is enough suppressive effect on the MMO mentality. There simply is little downtime to play assembly line crafter boredom.

I've also found the bulk of the crafting by running things serialized has been more about filling a sudden need like, 'Hey, I got my leg shot off' or 'We really could use a recon droid' or 'AHHHHHHHHH, My eyes! My eyes! AHHHHHHHHHH' that sorta thing. So they've ended up fixing problems with crafting as opposed to stacking leet gear.

Also I've found if you don't soft shoe your attacks on PCs, I mean you really hammer the **** out of them, they tend to realize even with a great blaster and great armor, when run the F away presents itself as an option, it's a good option. That also takes some of the impetus away from thinking the greatest blaster means I can stand and fight anywhere all the time.

Which in the end means I don't really sweat materials at all, as most of the time they are junking something else to scavenge parts for their idea or need.

Observation: from context, I think you are using "serialized" to mean cramming in encounters back to back to back in order to keep them perpetually busy (not a meaning i would typically ascribe to "serialized") as opposed to the "only one thing at a time" meaning (serial vs parallel). I had to mentally disect your verbiage in order to arrive at the meaning I think you intended. This is likely as much due to my mild case of asperger's as your word choice but I found it less than clear.

10 hours ago, SladeWeston said:

I have taken to making purchasable crafting materials harder to acquire while simultaneously allowing for more harvesting opportunities. My motivation was simple. I got tired of constantly having to restrict my crafters downtime for fear of them making insane gear at a fraction of the price.

My solution was to put them in an area without a local Star Wars Radioshack and restrict crafting that way. At the same time, I started offering him some custom crafting schematics and superior crafting materials as rewards. The idea was to take back some of the control of what rewards my party was getting while making them feel like they were getting cooler stuff. That way I could subtly nudge my crafter player into making more utility items and less crazy OP crap. Cloth that, if used to make light armor, will grant an upgrade to stealth checks. A focusing crystal that increases the difficulty of blaster crafting check by one but adds knockdown. Schematics for making light armor with a built in holographic costume. Plus all of materials reduce the crafting material cost by some amount.

So far I've been pretty happy with the results. The player has been spending his time crafting cooler things rather than just more damage more soak gear. Plus, now I am able to reduce the credit rewards I'm paying out by providing alternatives. As an unexpected side bonus, two of my players have taken to boosting some unlikely skills in an effort to have a better chance at running down some rarer crafting requirements.

It's kills me a little inside to say this, but I borrow the idea from MMO crafting systems. Generally I go out of the way to keep my games from feeling like a videogame but so far I've been pretty happy with the results.

A good idea is a good idea, wherever it comes from. Where MMO crafting systems often fall short is that collecting materials isn't terribly engaging, and the materials themselves are standardized because a computer has to do the math. In terms of aesthetics of play, that works for abnegation/submission, but that's one aesthetic tabletop games generally aren't tailored for.

There's an Angry GM article I need to dig for on the topic of crafting systems, where he discusses player motivations for wanting crafting systems. Guess I'll work from memory in the meantime:

Challenge: They want better stuff so they can take on bigger challenges. Or they enjoy solving the 'puzzle' of building something within the game's rules.

Expression: They don't just want a weapon/suit/vehicle, they want a full custom job that's an extension of their unique character.

Fantasy: They want to play an inventor, pushing the bounds of technology. They want crafting to be part of their character's story.

Discovery: They want to invent new things and test out combinations of custom equipment.

Camaraderie: They want to be part of the team, and crafting and customizing other players' equipment is their chosen method.

---

I can happily support rewarding players with useful parts as 'treasure,' and using that to encourage them to take directions they wouldn't have considered if they just got a pile of money.

I love crafting! I hate crafting in mmo. I like crafting as part of a story. I don't really care about min maxing a combat droid, I like building a weird, quirky droid built from a weather cam droid and a robot dog, something that contemplates the smell of incoming rain, and warns us of night time lows.

The fact that it's also an awesome sneaky hover scout, is actually more bonus then motivation!

I like the rp value of being the guy that does crazy rp rather then mechanical point and shoot combat. Crafting improvised explosives, modding my teams weapons into death rays so they can rain pain, while I climb a pole to hack into the cam system on top.

34 minutes ago, TheShard said:

I love crafting! I hate crafting in mmo. I like crafting as part of a story. I don't really care about min maxing a combat droid, I like building a weird, quirky droid built from a weather cam droid and a robot dog, something that contemplates the smell of incoming rain, and warns us of night time lows.

The fact that it's also an awesome sneaky hover scout, is actually more bonus then motivation!

I like the rp value of being the guy that does crazy rp rather then mechanical point and shoot combat. Crafting improvised explosives, modding my teams weapons into death rays so they can rain pain, while I climb a pole to hack into the cam system on top.

True story.

I've got a spare parts system meant for vehicle repairs, but it does mention being used for repairing components and gear. Not for crafting, but includes details for scavenging other materials. Starts at page 11 to see if it could be modified for your use:

Vehicle Ops: Repairs & Wear

Hey all

New Question:

Thought I'd post a new crafting question on my thread from earlier in the year, rather than start a brand new one. I've been reviewing the crafting rules (not used them in a while, but have a technician PC in my game who's started to take an interest), and I've noticed what seems to be a problem - just wanted to see what other people did.

The templates specify the time it takes to craft an item. Now, my instinct is to put the check at the END of that period of time; especially for more complicated items, it's unlikely that the technician in my campaign is going to have enough time to complete their crafting in a single hit - it's likely going to be a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, maybe a few hours while travelling through hyperspace...you get the idea. It's going to be piecemeal. And to put the check at the beginning of that seems horrible, because you end up in one of two situations: it's either "Oh, you failed your check, but I'm going to insist that you dedicate at least 48 hours on it anyway", or it's "Well done, you succeeded...but you can't use that item until you've given be 48 hours of crafting time. Ready, set..."

So, to avoid those issues, you put the crafting check at the end. Easy. Except...each success reduces crafting time by 2 hours. Now, the technician in my campaign is rolling a base check of YYYGG, plus boosts, with ranks in Gearhead to remove setbacks. Rolling 6+ net successes is really not out of the question; even on a Daunting check it's possible (although, admittedly, less likely). But what happens then? You can't roll at the end of the check, see 6 successes and go "Oh, it actually takes you 12 hours less...now let's see, you spent 4 hours today, but only 2 hours on the previous day...er...did you want to do anything else with that time? And then it was 3 hours a couple of days before that, when you were really needed elsewhere..." So you (or, at least, I) end up not wanting to make the check at the beginning OR at the end.

In fairness, this isn't exactly an insurmountable problem - just remove the "successes=time reduced" rule and roll at the end. But it irks me as another example of FFG not quite thinking the rules through.

There are many situations like that in the game, just roll with it.

My view is that players should roll with the bad as well as the good. It's like failing perception rolls then getting hyper cautious. Just don't do it. The GM isn't there to punish you, you are making a story. In the same way, if you fail a crafting roll, narrate your character still working on it, getting increasingly frustrated by lack of progress.

In the game where I am a crafter we often roll for a whole bunch of crafting at once (whilst only the people I'm crafting for and GM are there), tot up the time, then I work slowly through it based on how much spare time we get in hyperspace etc. That way we aren't constantly trying to track individual crafts and rolling, but just pop out items at particular times taken.

If I spent 6 hours baking a cake, only to end up with a lumpy mess because I forgot the leavening agent, I don't get a refund on all that time. I failed, it was a waste of time, there's nothing I can do about it.

Even though it's a game, it's not so fantastical where time isn't a factor that can be lost. A failed check is a failed check, including the lost time.

That being said, you could use advantage or triumph to save some of that time.

If they can make it with the Survival skill and they're in the wilderness then I let them make a check to find the materials with the time to find materials being equal to the time it takes to craft it. I may add some setback or upgrades in depending on the situation. Cholgana is full of materials, but is also quite dangerous.

1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

If I spent 6 hours baking a cake, only to end up with a lumpy mess because I forgot the leavening agent, I don't get a refund on all that time. I failed, it was a waste of time, there's nothing I can do about it.

If I spent 6 hours on baking a cake and it came out bad I'd probably have a fit. I've done some time intensive craft work and the worst feeling is when you think you're done and do something that ruins the whole piece.

Just now, Lukey84 said:

If I spent 6 hours on baking a cake and it came out bad I'd probably have a fit. I've done some time intensive craft work and the worst feeling is when you think you're done and do something that ruins the whole piece.

Yeah, done that. Doesn't mean I got a mulligan on all that time lost.

The check is made, if they failed and wasted time, oh well, that's life.

9 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Hey all

New Question:

Thought I'd post a new crafting question on my thread from earlier in the year, rather than start a brand new one. I've been reviewing the crafting rules (not used them in a while, but have a technician PC in my game who's started to take an interest), and I've noticed what seems to be a problem - just wanted to see what other people did.

The templates specify the time it takes to craft an item. Now, my instinct is to put the check at the END of that period of time; especially for more complicated items, it's unlikely that the technician in my campaign is going to have enough time to complete their crafting in a single hit - it's likely going to be a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, maybe a few hours while travelling through hyperspace...you get the idea. It's going to be piecemeal. And to put the check at the beginning of that seems horrible, because you end up in one of two situations: it's either "Oh, you failed your check, but I'm going to insist that you dedicate at least 48 hours on it anyway", or it's "Well done, you succeeded...but you can't use that item until you've given be 48 hours of crafting time. Ready, set..."

So, to avoid those issues, you put the crafting check at the end. Easy. Except...each success reduces crafting time by 2 hours. Now, the technician in my campaign is rolling a base check of YYYGG, plus boosts, with ranks in Gearhead to remove setbacks. Rolling 6+ net successes is really not out of the question; even on a Daunting check it's possible (although, admittedly, less likely). But what happens then? You can't roll at the end of the check, see 6 successes and go "Oh, it actually takes you 12 hours less...now let's see, you spent 4 hours today, but only 2 hours on the previous day...er...did you want to do anything else with that time? And then it was 3 hours a couple of days before that, when you were really needed elsewhere..." So you (or, at least, I) end up not wanting to make the check at the beginning OR at the end.

In fairness, this isn't exactly an insurmountable problem - just remove the "successes=time reduced" rule and roll at the end. But it irks me as another example of FFG not quite thinking the rules through.

I think the best methodology for this is give something a minimum crafting time (1/4 of base should be a good starting point). When that is reached the crafter rolls, if they succeed let them finish out building it over the rest if the time they need to spend, if they fail they may either scrap the project entirely, or spend one hour per failure and threat generated to salvage the project.

This should be both mechanically balanced and thematically thoughtful. The explanation is at about the minimum speed point you have the most difficult, delicate work done, and can check your work to ensure it’s flaw-free. If it is, you have the hard work of fitting into the casing left, and that can be reduced by how well-shaped the delicate pieces are. (The critical pieces can be your vibro-motor, your focusing crystal, your charge pack, etc.)

11 hours ago, edwardavern said:

And to put the check at the beginning of that seems horrible, because you end up in one of two situations: it's either "Oh, you failed your check, but I'm going to insist that you dedicate at least 48 hours on it anyway", or it's "Well done, you succeeded...but you can't use that item until you've given be 48 hours of crafting time. Ready, set..."

Roll at the beginning. Effects happen at the end. Don't treat the result so literal. Time-wise it's not "done" when you successfully roll, and its not an instant failure when you roll. Success just means that when you get to the end you finished quicker than you thought and you assembled it correctly. Failure just means you spent 6 hours assembling an ikea armoire, but its not until you go to hang up that first Coat and everything falls apart that you realize you forgot to put in bolt 9C. You still have to spend the time to know if you passed or failed.

If its a problem of thinking "they failed but still have to spend the time on it", you just need a change of reference. Its not that now you still have to spend 48 hours crafting that thing; its that you DID just spend 48 hours on that thing. Ultimately you're just rolling to see how you spent your time. Past tense.

10 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

If its a problem of thinking "they failed but still have to spend the time on it", you just need a change of reference. Its not that now you still have to spend 48 hours crafting that thing; its that you DID just spend 48 hours on that thing. Ultimately you're just rolling to see how you spent your time. Past tense.

1

Roll at the beginning for something happening in the past? Not sure I followed you round that bend.

4 hours ago, edwardavern said:

Roll at the beginning for something happening in the past? Not sure I followed you round that bend.

The roll determines how long it would take, but your character doesn't just magically know how many successes he got on his dice roll. When a character has some down time, they make a check to try and craft something. Then, after the dice have been rolled, you know how much of their down time has been used on making a given product.

36 minutes ago, Degenerate Mind said:

The roll determines how long it would take, but your character doesn't just magically know how many successes he got on his dice roll. When a character has some down time, they make a check to try and craft something. Then, after the dice have been rolled, you know how much of their down time has been used on making a given product.

This is fine for a 2-hour item, but becomes a problem for a 56-hour droid (and, I assume, will be exacerbated in the vehicle-crafting rules). It's a rare campaign where a PC has 56 hours of uninterrupted downtime (or more, if the GM insists that the character has to get some sleep). Such a check could feasibly take weeks of in-game time. If the roll determines that they take that full period and fail the check, do you, the GM, then insist that they spend that time, knowing that it will be unsuccessful? Can't think of anything more likely to really annoy a player, or make the disillusioned with the system.

Like I said, it's not a difficult problem to fix...it just annoys me that it requires fixing. (And it's not an isolated example of ill-thought out rules. I really really like the core of this system a lot - the dice, the character-creation, the talent trees, the Force, the combat system...they're all great. That's why I play this game. But I've had to tweak so many little bits things that either weren't explained, were explained pooly, or just weren't thought through, and it really bugs me that that's necessary.)

1 minute ago, edwardavern said:

This is fine for a 2-hour item, but becomes a problem for a 56-hour droid (and, I assume, will be exacerbated in the vehicle-crafting rules). It's a rare campaign where a PC has 56 hours of uninterrupted downtime (or more, if the GM insists that the character has to get some sleep). Such a check could feasibly take weeks of in-game time. If the roll determines that they take that full period and fail the check, do you, the GM, then insist that they spend that time, knowing that it will be unsuccessful? Can't think of anything more likely to really annoy a player, or make the disillusioned with the system.

Like I said, it's not a difficult problem to fix...it just annoys me that it requires fixing. (And it's not an isolated example of ill-thought out rules. I really really like the core of this system a lot - the dice, the character-creation, the talent trees, the Force, the combat system...they're all great. That's why I play this game. But I've had to tweak so many little bits things that either weren't explained, were explained pooly, or just weren't thought through, and it really bugs me that that's necessary.)

It's not like the player actually has to sit down at the game table for 56 hours. When you decide that the dice roll happens has no impact on how long it takes you to tell your player "your character spends X amount of time working on a droid."

This isn't completely ridiculous. As a hobby, I like to homebrew. I spend practically an entire Saturday or Sunday brewing up a batch that I won't know how it turned out until weeks or months (depending on the style) later. Sure I can take samples as it ferments, but there's only so much that can be done by that point.

57 minutes ago, Degenerate Mind said:

It's not like the player actually has to sit down at the game table for 56 hours. When you decide that the dice roll happens has no impact on how long it takes you to tell your player "your character spends X amount of time working on a droid."

Yeah, no, I get that. But let's assume the other players want to do something other than "we sit and wait for our technician for a week". Or let's assume that there are story events that I would like to happen within that time. Or that the ship will arrive at its destination and the PCs will have to respond. Or whatever.

Just now, kaosoe said:

This isn't completely ridiculous. As a hobby, I like to homebrew. I spend all day brewing up a batch that I won't know how it turned out until weeks or months (depending on the style) later. Sure I can take samples as it ferments, but there's only so much that can be done by that point.

Could you clarify? From context, I wasn't sure what isn't completely ridiculous....

2 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

This isn't completely ridiculous. As a hobby, I like to homebrew. I spend practically an entire Saturday or Sunday brewing up a batch that I won't know how it turned out until weeks or months (depending on the style) later. Sure I can take samples as it ferments, but there's only so much that can be done by that point.

I can't tell if you're talking about alcohol, or using it as a metaphor for RPGs.