Take the time to sit down, realize the mistakes that you have been doing, the local meta and such. Keep Einstein close to heart with this quote:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

So in short, learn, adapt, fight back, conquer, destroy, take over the world... wait, I might be taking this a bit too far

7 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Keep enjoying the process of playing and theory crafting on list building and keep the focus away from winning. Play for fun and try casual lists.

^100% this.

10 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, not really, as winning is more fun than losing in X-Wing (quite a bit more fun than getting 100-to-0 tabled by meta squads night after night). No one should be expected to fully enjoy a game that they never win, as part of the objective of any game is to win (it may not be the point of playing games, which is your message here, but winning is still the objective ). If players are unable to win games of X-Wing, they will eventually drop it and try other games, and good for them. This is true of any game, and it's an issue gaming communities always face. Blood Bowl, for instance, had 20+ playable teams (factions). The rules explicitly stated that several of the teams were "challenge" teams meant to be weaker than other options and a bit zanier, so that veteran players could try something entirely different and still play their hardest against newer players without a "free pass" to grind them into the turf. The Challenge Teams were great field-levelers. It's also why the Chess community puts so much effort and emphasis into assessing people's general ranking and pairing like-ranked players together in tournaments: the game is only fun when both players are on even footing and have a reasonable chance to walk away from a game as a winner or a loser. If a grandmaster and a noobie sit down at a chess board, neither will have fun. The noobie might find value in it as a long-term investment learning opportunity, but there are so many great games out there that the X-Wing community can't simply expect players (new and old alike) to sit their and take their lumps if they find themselves in a long-term losing streak. The "other stuff" about the game of X-Wing that make it fun in addition to the joys of winning can also be found in many other games, so why shouldn't such players move to another game where they have a better chance of competing? Players need to be helped on their progress to becoming competitive, and to just tell them to "have fun being a loser" is unhelpful and unrealistic, as no one ought be expected to be a Hobby Martyr and sit there and smile as they invest their valuable time and money to lose, lose, lose.

I do, of course, agree with everything you said above. OTOH, IMHO, games like this should be about what Shadow345 said. You should be having so much fun getting ready to play that the game itself is just an experiment in "how did I do?"

I would argue that this is why netlisting sucks and why the meta sucks: knowledge of both has removed one of the better elements of the game: deciding what to put on the table. XWM's uber-defined meta stifles creativity for enough people that the only thing left is "Did I win?"

In the long run, not only does this devalue the game, but I can't help but feel like this is the first game community I have been in where people more often define their happiness in terms of winning rather than playing.

7 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Grivoire, Darth Meanie and AllWings make good points (even if they disagree with one another!).

I fly 5 Kihraxz when I'm looking to both have fun and improve my flying (which is a bit rubbish). I've only ever won one game with them, but I've got better and since everyone expects me to lose with them, any ship I take down feels like a full victory. Plus it encourages the other players to put fun lists on the table too. This results in a happier atmosphere all round, since they get to win using ships they want to try out and I feel like I've won if I just score some points.

In the TC Open, the Kihraxz gets a 3 point discount. I'm currently 2-0 with 5 Kihraxz all with Pulsed Ray Shield and Black Market Slicers. Lucky dice rolls and opponents that underestimated 12 red dice. (Ships always die or block so 15 is probably a pipe dream.)

The Vassal League Offseason gives them a 2 point discount. I think I'm going to try 5 with PRS and see if that upgrade is as good as I think it is.

The Kihraxz has some interesting potential with illicits but needs something for free in order to compete.

Edit: On topic: Spam generic efficiency and go until the dice variance smiles upon you.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

I would argue that this is why netlisting sucks and why the meta sucks: knowledge of both has removed one of the better elements of the game: deciding what to put on the table. XWM's uber-defined meta stifles creativity for enough people that the only thing left is "Did I win?"

I suppose so, but this has certainly been around since Wave 1's first Gencon release tournament. The community in general has seemed to bemoan net-listing and the meta a lot more lately, but there have always been players that just look at what wins a big event and take it to the next thing they go to, even as far back as Wave 1. It will always be the case in X-Wing just as it is always the case in other games where people have to build their own forces (Magic The Gathering, Warhammer 40k, HeroClix, etc. ).

What's perhaps changed, though this is an open empirical question, may be that the space and opportunity for creative lists to emerge and compete with the Top Meta Squads of the day is much smaller. Basically, that the players are so good and the top squads so efficient that it's less likely now (than, say, a few Waves ago) for novel unique builds to reliably compete. I'm not sure whether I think this is true, or whether I think it's always been hard for creative unique stuff to outcompete the meta (e.g. no one really cracked the Howl Swarm meta of Waves 1-3) and people are just complaining about it more now than back then ("in the good ol'days" sort of nostalgia clouding their judgments).

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would argue that this is why netlisting sucks and why the meta sucks: knowledge of both has removed one of the better elements of the game: deciding what to put on the table. XWM's uber-defined meta stifles creativity for enough people that the only thing left is "Did I win?"

I don't think there's an uber-defined meta. Though there might be the impression of an uber-defined meta. I think there's some self-reinforcement going on - many people netlist, thus netlisters win many games, thus people get the impression that you need to netlist in order to win games, and *poof* vicious circle.

10 minutes ago, haslo said:

I don't think there's an uber-defined meta. Though there might be the impression of an uber-defined meta. I think there's some self-reinforcement going on - many people netlist, thus netlisters win many games, thus people get the impression that you need to netlist in order to win games, and *poof* vicious circle.

This is, of course, a possibility.

Though, I will say that as a fairly competent competitive player (four-time Regionals Finalist, one-time Regional Champion) who plays and strategizes with a group of other fairly competitive players (five more Regional Championships and a National Championship amongst them), my own opinion (and some of their opinions, though I'm not confident enough to speak for all of them) is that it's much harder now to go off-meta and reliably win than it used to be. I look at the modern options, and I wonder why I'd ever run want to run anything other than Scum or maybe, if I was feeling fiesty, Miranda. Jumpmasters are still mind-scratchingly cheap and cards like Mindlink are very forgiving and affordable.

10 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What's perhaps changed, though this is an open empirical question, may be that the space and opportunity for creative lists to emerge and compete with the Top Meta Squads of the day is much smaller. Basically, that the players are so good and the top squads so efficient that it's less likely now (than, say, a few Waves ago) for novel unique builds to reliably compete. I'm not sure whether I think this is true, or whether I think it's always been hard for creative unique stuff to outcompete the meta (e.g. no one really cracked the Howl Swarm meta of Waves 1-3) and people are just complaining about it more now than back then ("in the good ol'days" sort of nostalgia clouding their judgments).

I would say that it is the power creep that has made things worse. With the broken ships that are the main meta being so broken....it's much harder to pull ahead with a not-as-efficient-but-fun list.

Switch it up constantly, @heychadwick is correct in branching out to what is really fun about X-Wing. I think I might be agreeing with Chadwick too much.....or not....anyway, yes, keep it fresh.

Bogging down in competitive games is real easy when you're hitting a wall. Not to be too tong-n-cheek, but I was burning out on my Interceptor squads as it was like banging my head against a wall with the current meta. I couldn't make enough mod changes, pilot changes, substituting in a TIE/X1, Bomber, Phantom, Punisher or seemingly "get gud" enough flying the wonderful glass cannons to win with any consistency against the good players sporting the current (stagnant) heavy meta. Soooooo, I borrowed a friend's Fenn and toilet seat and added it to my one JK5 and flew FennBoats for the first time (months ago now) and it was very fun and relieving. It's not Star Wars sure, and it's not what I love, h***, it's not what I fly mostly (love Epic, 400 point 4 player, campaigns, etc.).... BUT, when you're kinda pressed down a bit and need to man up against squads brought by tourney focused players, hit them in the head with FennBoats (be sure you got Boba in one) and let off some steam; then go play a campaign with friends and a pint or two (dark Ale, Porter or Stout please).

Cheers!

12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is, of course, a possibility.

Though, I will say that as a fairly competent competitive player (four-time Regionals Finalist, one-time Regional Champion) who plays and strategizes with a group of other fairly competitive players (five more Regional Championships and a National Championship amongst them), my own opinion (and some of their opinions, though I'm not confident enough to speak for all of them) is that it's much harder now to go off-meta and reliably win than it used to be. I look at the modern options, and I wonder why I'd ever run want to run anything other than Scum or maybe, if I was feeling fiesty, Miranda. Jumpmasters are still mind-scratchingly cheap and cards like Mindlink are very forgiving and affordable.

Very sad but true. I've been playing for close to 4 years now. I've never been one to run meta lists, and I'd like to think I'm a better player now than my earlier days.

That being said, I get sad looking back at the records of old lists I still have saved in online squad builders. I used to win A LOT more than I do nowadays. I'm sure part of that is an ever-growing player community and other players getting better as well. But really I think the meta, while diverse to be sure, is stronger than ever and hard to beat if you don't join them.

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

It's much harder now to go off-meta and reliably win than it used to be. I look at the modern options, and I wonder why I'd ever run want to run anything other than Scum or maybe, if I was feeling fiesty, Miranda . Jumpmasters are still mind-scratchingly cheap and cards like Mindlink are very forgiving and affordable.

The gap between what works really well and what doesn't work at all has certainly widened, and thus also the gap between a list that's newly built and one that's been tested by the community at large. There's many more permutations of upgrades, and many more things you might encounter. So that regard, you're probably right.

30 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

it's much harder now to go off-meta and reliably win than it used to be. I look at the modern options, and I wonder why I'd ever run want to run anything other than Scum or maybe, if I was feeling fiesty, Miranda. Jumpmasters are still mind-scratchingly cheap and cards like Mindlink are very forgiving and affordable.

This.

I think your experience and thought bears this out without question. I have tested the theory and I can see no argument against it.

32 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Switch it up constantly, @heychadwick is correct in branching out to what is really fun about X-Wing. I think I might be agreeing with Chadwick too much.....or not....anyway, yes, keep it fresh.

What is the point of the game? For me, it's to have fun. When playing it one way isn't fun anymore, you can always quit and go play another way. There are so many ways to play the game beyond tournament style, though. Trying something different can be a very refreshing way to be playing the same game....but not feel like it's the same game. As many people know, when I quit playing tournaments, I started to have more fun than when I ever did play tournaments. What's great, though, is that you don't have to quit tournaments....or play only tournaments. There is enough variety in this game that you can play any way you want. Just make sure to switch off one way when it's not as much fun. Variety is the spice of life.

Ask your opponent if they want competitive or casual game. Then base your lists off that. We have players here who just fly Parattanni and Rau Boats etc, so I only bring my competitive lists to play against them. Other players always bring jank and dont care about competition, so I know I can bring my jank against them. Find the right opponent, makes games a lot more fun.

Also, what heychadwick said, switch the game type up every now and then. Get a mario kart going, or just do original trilogy ships, etc. Brings your mind off the 100/6 and gets you back to flying for fun.

When you're on a "loosing" streak you just need to tighten up!

When I'm on a losing streak I fall back on lists that I know I am proficient in to get back in the swing of things. I've gotten meta frustration lately so I've had to resort to it a bit.

Also, X-wing definitely has fundamentals. The one I always have to remind myself to do is "when in doubt, slow roll." I can get too aggressive and have it cost me the game.

5 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

When you're on a "loosing" streak you just need to tighten up!

Jon "Dutch" Vander would not agree.

Gold Leader: "Loosen up!"
Gold Five: "Stay on Target"
Gold Leader: "We're too tight, I can't maneuver!"
Gold Five: "Stay on Target"
*Explosions*
Gold Five: [without emotion or regret] "Lost Tiree, lost Dutch. They came from behind."

59 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I suppose so, but this has certainly been around since Wave 1's first Gencon release tournament. The community in general has seemed to bemoan net-listing and the meta a lot more lately, but there have always been players that just look at what wins a big event and take it to the next thing they go to, even as far back as Wave 1. It will always be the case in X-Wing just as it is always the case in other games where people have to build their own forces (Magic The Gathering, Warhammer 40k, HeroClix, etc. ).

What's perhaps changed, though this is an open empirical question, may be that the space and opportunity for creative lists to emerge and compete with the Top Meta Squads of the day is much smaller. Basically, that the players are so good and the top squads so efficient that it's less likely now (than, say, a few Waves ago) for novel unique builds to reliably compete. I'm not sure whether I think this is true, or whether I think it's always been hard for creative unique stuff to outcompete the meta (e.g. no one really cracked the Howl Swarm meta of Waves 1-3) and people are just complaining about it more now than back then ("in the good ol'days" sort of nostalgia clouding their judgments).

Ah, but the game was shiny and new. And how much netlisting can you really do when your options are TIE/ln and X-Wing fighter?

56 minutes ago, haslo said:

I don't think there's an uber-defined meta. Though there might be the impression of an uber-defined meta. I think there's some self-reinforcement going on - many people netlist, thus netlisters win many games, thus people get the impression that you need to netlist in order to win games, and *poof* vicious circle.

While I agree with your last sentence, there is more than an impression of meta. No one in their right mind is going to take a Punisher to tourney, and I think more importantly, it is very hard to be creative with said ship in a way that you might expect things to turn out well, even in for-fun play.

46 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

it's much harder now to go off-meta and reliably win than it used to be. I look at the modern options, and I wonder why I'd ever run want to run anything other than Scum or maybe, if I was feeling fiesty, Miranda. Jumpmasters are still mind-scratchingly cheap and cards like Mindlink are very forgiving and affordable.

Which kills all the best forms of fun. You can't enjoy full-field creativity with all the ships and cards in the pool, and thus all that is left for "fun" is win/not win.

When i go on a losing streak, which happens alot for me, considering i play an imperial squad and have only played for 6 months, I do several things.

1. My roommate and I play at least once a week. While I only beat him maybe 1 out of 10 times, i'm always modifying my lists to adjust to different tactics. I try to come up with a list that works for most tactics. After each game, we go outside and talk about each other's list and what worked and what didn't work. We also discuss what we could've did differently in each match.

2. Play new people. Find someone who you don't regularly play. I did this by starting to go to my FLGS and trying new people. I apply what i learned from my roommate and vice versa. I also ask people what they think i should've did differently. I have been playing this one person who is a regular at big tournaments and has this big collection. After six months, I managed to beat him. I was so excited. even tho my record with him is like 1`5-1, I still think that's great because I managed to beat what i consider a top tier player.

3. Play ships/factions you're not used to. Whenever I get a new ship I play at least 3 games with it included to learn the ins/outs of it. I've learned that doing that gives you an insight into how that ship flies and what it's weaknesses are. I was all gung-ho when i got the Lambda, till i realized it was a flying cow. Even though i don't play it often i still bring it out occasionally and try new things with it. I realized it flies a lot more like I'm used to flying by just adding Engine Upgrade, which i didn't have when i bought it. Whenever i buy a new ship, I go through the cards and think about not how they fit with the new ship, but how they work with any ship i own.

4. Set goals for yourself during each game. IE, as someone said earlier, try not to hit any asteroids, or conversely, hit every asteroid on the board. You'll find that when you focus on things like that, your flying will get better and you'll do better.

5. Psychological Warfare. I'm not saying to be a **** to everyone you play and be a rules lawyer, but most people who play TIE Phantoms always use Whisper. I NEVER play Whisper. I play Echo. I have learned that Echo is much harder to predict and when you do something the other player doesn't predict it throws them off their game. Many times have people gotten so wrapped up with trying to figure out Echo and finish them off, that they didn't see one of my Defenders come up behind them and take em out. This also works with janky lists. While on paper the list may not do well in the meta, sometimes doing something really out there is enough to earn you a much needed win. Also, sometimes chaotic flight movements or actions can do the same thing. Setup your ships to look like you want to joust, only to have them all do hard turns and fly around the board. Only to get half way and then brave the asteroid field. Or take that focus when you should've taken an evade. People will spend a lot of time trying to figure out what you're up to, only to make mistakes themselves.

56 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Which kills all the best forms of fun. You can't enjoy full-field creativity with all the ships and cards in the pool, and thus all that is left for "fun" is win/not win.

Pretty much, though I get it. Why would anyone take 1-2 days off of work and away from family and spend potentially $100+ in registration, travel, and housing to go a Regional or larger event if they didn't feel like they had a list that had a least a chance of going 50/50.

I'm lucky in that I can usually make two Regionals a year work for my schedule, obligations, and budget. So this past cycle I used one Regional to play a fun, creative list that I thematically loved. I spent about two months tinkering with variations of it (meaning spending 2-4 hours a week testing on Vassal against high-level friends), refined it to as a tight as I could get with as much practice against top meta I could muster and took it just to turn some heads and have some fun. I went 2-4 with the list, which is the first and only time in eight X-Wing Regionals I did not make the cut (four of which I made the final table). It turned out to be a lot less fun than I thought it would be as even down at the bottom tables I was playing against nothing but Top Meta lists (X7s, Palps, and Jumps everywhere), and felt like I wasted an entire Saturday.

And this is saying something, as in the past I'd have a hell of a good time running my typical breed of crazy, zany lists. Back in Wave 6 I made the final table at a 80+ person Regional running Lando, Blount, and Cracken with missiles (and this was well before Guidance Chips were even a thing, mind you). I understood the meta and said to myself I wanted to run my favorite character ( Lando ) and tested and tinkered and found what I believed to be the best way to do that at the time. And sure enough I beat Dual Aggressors, Fat Han + Corrans, and RAC + Fels/Whispers all day long to make the final table with a weird list no one had ever seen, using missiles at a time when everyone said ordnance were awful (ah, pre Guidance Chips, pre Deadeye Scouts... simpler times).

I don't think I've gotten any worse as a player (I went 6-1 in Swiss at my second Regional that year and made the cut, once I set aside the creative unique squad), nor do I think I've lost touch with the meta, but now my efforts to fly something neat, thematic, and creative end in not even getting the Top 64 "participation card," heheh, when in the old days I always felt like I had a real shot at making T16 cuts, even with novel jank, as long as I understood the meta well enough and flew well. In my opinion, the skill ceiling has gotten so low and so easily reached with the Top Meta squads now that I'm pretty sure I'd lose with my best creative fave-character squads against relative rookies flying Top Meta Squads, even if I flew at my best and they made a few errors and inaccuracies (to borrow from chess analysis lingo). Maybe it's not a bad thing? I personally don't like it, and I wish experience and on-table decision making played more of a role than they do now in determining the winner of a game, but perhaps there is value in having a much lower skill ceiling so that new players can jump in and become competitive much more quickly. I don't like it, as I think it greatly undervalues skill, experience, and good-decision making, but maybe I'm on the wrong side of the fence on this.

12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Pretty much, though I get it. Why would anyone take 1-2 days off of work and away from family and spend potentially $100+ in registration, travel, and housing to go a Regional or larger event if they didn't feel like they had a list that had a least a chance of going 50/50.

I'm lucky in that I can usually make two Regionals a year work for my schedule, obligations, and budget. So this past cycle I used one Regional to play a fun, creative list that I thematically loved. I spent about two months tinkering with variations of it (meaning spending 2-4 hours a week testing on Vassal against high-level friends), refined it to as a tight as I could get with as much practice against top meta I could muster and took it just to turn some heads and have some fun. I went 2-4 with the list, which is the first and only time in eight X-Wing Regionals I did not make the cut (four of which I made the final table). It turned out to be a lot less fun than I thought it would be as even down at the bottom tables I was playing against nothing but Top Meta lists (X7s, Palps, and Jumps everywhere), and felt like I wasted an entire Saturday.

And this is saying something, as in the past I'd have a hell of a good time running my typical breed of crazy, zany lists. Back in Wave 6 I made the final table at a 80+ person Regional running Lando, Blount, and Cracken with missiles (and this was well before Guidance Chips were even a thing, mind you). I understood the meta and said to myself I wanted to run my favorite character ( Lando ) and tested and tinkered and found what I believed to be the best way to do that at the time. And sure enough I beat Dual Aggressors, Fat Han + Corrans, and RAC + Fels/Whispers all day long to make the final table with a weird list no one had ever seen, using missiles at a time when everyone said ordnance were awful (ah, pre Guidance Chips, pre Deadeye Scouts... simpler times).

I don't think I've gotten any worse as a player (I went 6-0 in Swiss at my second Regional that year, once I sat down the fun unique squad), nor do I think I've lost touch with the meta, but now my efforts to fly something neat, thematic, and creative end in not even getting the Top 64 "participation card," heheh, when in the old days I always felt like I had a real shot at making T16 cuts, even with novel jank, as long as I understood the meta well enough and flew well. The skill ceiling has gotten so low and easily obtained on so much of the Top Meta now, that I'm pretty sure even against relative rookies flying Top Meta Squads who make a few "errors" or "inaccuracies" (to borrow chess language) I'd still probably lose with my best "creative favorite character lists" even if flew at my best. I don't believe this was always the case. And maybe it's not a bad thing? I don't like it, and I wish experience and on-table decisions played more of a role than they do now, where I feel match-up plays a giant role in determining winner, but perhaps there value in having the game have a much lower skill ceiling so that new players can jump in and become competitive much more quickly. I don't like it, but maybe I'm on the wrong side of the fence on this.

From my POV, everything you wrote in paragraph 2 makes this game sound more like work to me than a way to have fun. It sounds like training for a sporting event; and after all that work to field-test a list, I guess you would have to win lest the entire run-up feel like it was a waste of time.

If you can't play favorite character lists, and need to be competitive (because even I admit that losing vs. getting curb-stomped is a different beast entirely) , that for me is "fun Star Wars game" circling the drain.

22 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

From my POV, everything you wrote in paragraph 2 makes this game sound more like work to me than a way to have fun. It sounds like training for a sporting event; and after all that work to field-test a list, I guess you would have to win lest the entire run-up feel like it was a waste of time.

Pretty much, I feel like there's very little point to going to any X-Wing event larger than an OP Quarterly Kit unless you've prepared yourself pretty well or are comfortable getting curb-stomped all day or are flying something at the top of the meta. Which is why so many just netlist, and no shame in it. But I think that's true of most competitive games, and if you enjoy the aspects of competition (like I do), these are part of the hobby. That said, I feel like nowadays you need to "train" a lot harder than in the past, due to the powercreep and lowered skill ceiling, and the space to be creative and original when doing so is much smaller.

22 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

If you can't play favorite character lists, and need to be competitive (because even I admit that losing vs. getting curb-stomped is a different beast entirely) , that for me is "fun Star Wars game" circling the drain.

I can safely say that the past year and a half have been the least fun I've had playing Competitive X-Wing, and I started back during the Wave 1 original release and still fondly winning the first Kessel Run event. it seems like there was a paradigm shift with Wave 8's release, and for me it wasn't a shift to the sort of thing that I personally found very fun about the game. That said, I've still gone 2 out of 3 in making cuts as Regionals post Wave 8, so it's not just sour grapes. Just that the way I had to build and play to win and the stuff I was playing against has been far less fun, and almost different in kind and not just in degree to the first seven waves of X-Wing. Though I've also been making more time for Epic and Team Epic, which I love to death, even if it's rare to find a tournament or event in that format (though I've been lucky to play in a few).

I still like the "thrill" of competition that comes with big events and I still like to socialize with all the friends I've made at these events, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it's less fun than it has been and my enthusiasm and excitement leading up the events is much less. At Gencon this year I'll probably be foregoing X-Wing entirely to play Aramada instead (since they are in direct competition in scheduling this year), because I don't think it (yet?) suffers from a lot of what I now find unpalatable about the X-Wing Competitive game.

It's not always practical advice, but when I most despair of the game (not always when I'm not doing well; more often when the meta is just stupid and boring, and even players I respect are sucked into meta lists), I play HotAC.

HotAC just has a way of reminding me what I have always found fun about X-Wing, in a way that competitive games often don't.

HotAC?

1 hour ago, DraakRyuu said:

HotAC?

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. A remarkably lengthy and well-playtested cooperative X-Wing campaign.

dockingbay416.net, I think.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

While I agree with your last sentence, there is more than an impression of meta. No one in their right mind is going to take a Punisher to tourney, and I think more importantly, it is very hard to be creative with said ship in a way that you might expect things to turn out well, even in for-fun play.

Absolutely, there is a meta. I think both AllWingsStandyingBy and my were talking about an uber-defined meta in the sense of "there's only a select few lists that you can take". There's definitely weaker and stronger ships, but there's quite a variety of ships and builds that can be strong. FWIW, there's 21 different ships in the 20 highest-magicked lists on meta-wing, and even Imperials are represented (and most of these lists have won at least one recent event).

3 hours ago, haslo said:

I don't think there's an uber-defined meta. Though there might be the impression of an uber-defined meta. I think there's some self-reinforcement going on - many people netlist, thus netlisters win many games, thus people get the impression that you need to netlist in order to win games, and *poof* vicious circle.

There is a second factor at play: Most netlists are obvious. I bet Old Man Rau was developed by more than a 1,000 players before those ships got even released, independently from tourney results and each other. Most succesful lists are not genius inventions by individuals. Outside of maybe half a dozen of Jeff Berling's lists nothing really comes to my mind which was heavily based on a single individual's innovation in list building.

Seriously, what's up with Berling and his lists? They really come out of nowhere and make me say to often "of course", yet I usually did not see those combos before he shows up with them in tournaments.