If you have a ship with M9G8 and they have locked a freindly ship that is attacking Dark Curse what gives. M9G8 says they must Reroll the chosen dice while Dark Curse says you cannot reroll any dice.

Can't / Cannot always win

33 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Can't / Cannot always win

Not in this case.

In this case, per the ruling around M9G8 and Omega Leader, the fact that M9G8's ship is forcing the reroll wins.

Spacey is right, but for the wrong reasons.

Muribundi is correct: can't always wins. However, the 'can't' in this case is that the attacker cannot reroll dice, but a ship other than the attacker, the one with M9-G8, is the one rerolling the dice, and Dark Curse does not prevent that, just as it never prevented Palpatine's mod.

Same result, slightly different reason – or perhaps a more precise reason.

M9 g8 specifically says that the attacker rerolls the dice, not the ship with m9 g8.

You don't get the reroll

For purposes of effects that care about the source of a modification (Omega Leader, Dark Curse), when ship B has an ability/upgrade that forces ship A to reroll a die, ship B is the source of the modification, not ship A.

(Abilities that allow another ship the option of rerolling a die, like Howlrunner's pilot ability, treat the ship rolling dice as the source of the modification, so it appears to be a question of who's making the decision.)

Haaa, yeah true, forgot this one

Didn't we have this discussion before where it was said that 'the attacker rerolls the dice' is just a functional wording to prevent one player physically touching the other players dice?

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy if that weren't the case as i didn't like the idea at the time. But I was sure that FFG clarified this the other way.

FAQ:

Quote

M9-G8

When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking. For example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot, a ship equipped with M9-G8, can cause that ship to reroll a die.

Or am I missing something?

The ship with m9g8 is the source of the modification, but the attacker is the one rerolling.

We're not dealing with a "can't modify" issue. It's a "can't reroll vs must reroll".

Can't is more restrictive, so attacker can't reroll.

3 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

The ship with m9g8 is the source of the modification, but the attacker is the one rerolling.

The FAQ disagrees.

How does it?

16 minutes ago, Willy Jarque said:

How does it?

Basically the logic is that ship a saying 'ship b must reroll' (e.g. M9G8), is ship a doing the modifying, but ship a saying 'ship b may reroll' (e.g. Howlrunner), is ship b doing the modifying. It's not a logic I like, but it's the logic they're apparently using for the FAQ.

I agree with that (and with the logic, by the way).

Actually, thats exactly what i said. The ship with m9g8 is the one doing the modification.

But it is not the one rerolling dice. In fact, the droid says, explicitly, that the other ship must reroll one attack dice. The other ship. If that ship cannot reroll dice, m9g8 has nothing to do there.

6 minutes ago, Willy Jarque said:

I agree with that (and with the logic, by the way).

Actually, thats exactly what i said. The ship with m9g8 is the one doing the modification.

But it is not the one rerolling dice. In fact, the droid says, explicitly, that the other ship must reroll one attack dice. The other ship. If that ship cannot reroll dice, m9g8 has nothing to do there.

...

The FAQ logic is that M9G8's ship is the one doing the rerolling, regardless of that not being what the card actually says.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

...

The FAQ logic is that M9G8's ship is the one doing the rerolling, regardless of that not being what the card actually says.

No, it isn't. The FAQ is quoted in this thread. M9G8's ship is doing the modification, not the one who rerolls. It's not the same.

It's no good, I can't find the old discussion in question. What I remember is that we were discussing effects like Elusiveness (I think that card sparked the discussion, but I don't recall precisely) and Omega Leader – specifically that Elusiveness et al. should word against Omega Leader because Omega Leader doesn't stop himself from modifying dice. The result of that conversation involved an email response from one of the FFG guys to a different question that directly implied that 'attacker/defender rerolls' does not refer to the ship but is a clarification that the person owning (in the game sense) the dice does the modifying – as in the card can't say 'you may reroll your opponent's dice' and such because they're not yours to directly modify. Things like Palpatine have no such wording because they lack the possibility of affecting an opponent's dice, whereas M9-G8 can affect either players' dice and thus must use such wording to avoid the implication of physically rerolling another player's dice.

As such, the idea is that, mechanically speaking, M9-G8 is rerolling the dice, but the attacker must perform the physical action because they're his dice.

I think that's why thespaceinvader and I are on the other side of this particular fence.

That said, my memory is horrid and no-one in their right mind should trust it, so I'm posting this as clarification of where I think the disagreement lies and I'll wait to see if Spacey's memory is better than mine...

It was around that one, but IIRC there was an email from the devs stating that M9G8 works on OL when on another ship, as well, the same way Palp does.

I really don't like the ruling (nor the one on ELusiveness etc) because it directly contradicts what the card says in a way that's not written anywhere else, but it is what it is.

A reroll is a modification. If the ship with M9-G8 is doing the modification, it's doing the reroll.

The only time M9G8 is blocked is by Unguided Rockets - it specifically says NO modifications other than regular focus token usage.

Dark Curse does NOT prevent M9G8 reroll because even if its "the attacker" that has to reroll the dice, the one doing the reroll is the M9G8 upgrade.

This discussion is getting sooooo tiresome. There is a problem when new players get so confused because they want to do what the card says. @Willy Jarque You are reading the card correctly but that is not how FFG has decided to rule it. M9-G8 and other cards that specifiy "the attacker must reroll" or similar are misleading. The text is there to indicate which dice get rerolled but M9-G8 is the one that actually modifies the dice. So if the droid is on another ship, he can get around Dark Curse and Omega Leader etc.

4 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

This discussion is getting sooooo tiresome. There is a problem when new players get so confused because they want to do what the card says. @Willy Jarque You are reading the card correctly but that is not how FFG has decided to rule it. M9-G8 and other cards that specifiy "the attacker must reroll" or similar are misleading. The text is there to indicate which dice get rerolled but M9-G8 is the one that actually modifies the dice. So if the droid is on another ship, he can get around Dark Curse and Omega Leader etc.

I'm not a new player, and i've said myself that m9g8 is doing the modification. In fact, i do was one that said that m9g8 works even with Omega Leader when de discussion was around.

I agree with the discussion getting tiresome. But, from my point of view, it is because every time a new person joins it, it seems that he doesnt read what i posted, and i dont want to repeat again that i know that m9g8 is the one doing the modification, but thats not the same as rolling dice. Thats why i will stop it here.

I'm sorry for being so stubborn, i do enjoy discussions about no-so-clear rules where everybody states their arguments and come to a common point (because thats whats the rules are for: to allow everyone to play the same way. I'm not interested in just being right).

I'll do as you say from now on. It seems reasonable enough.

6 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

I'm not a new player, and i've said myself that m9g8 is doing the modification. In fact, i do was one that said that m9g8 works even with Omega Leader when de discussion was around.

I agree with the discussion getting tiresome. But, from my point of view, it is because every time a new person joins it, it seems that he doesnt read what i posted, and i dont want to repeat again that i know that m9g8 is the one doing the modification, but thats not the same as rolling dice. Thats why i will stop it here.

I'm sorry for being so stubborn, i do enjoy discussions about no-so-clear rules where everybody states their arguments and come to a common point (because thats whats the rules are for: to allow everyone to play the same way. I'm not interested in just being right).

I'll do as you say from now on. It seems reasonable enough.

I get the distinction you're making, and I'm sympathetic--every time I've argued for a rules interpretation which FFG eventually ruled against, it's been because I was drawing a distinction between similar-but-not-identical things that FFG decided to treat as identical. "Don't Overthink It" is the principle underlying most of the eventual FFG rulings on fiddly rules questions like this.

If you don't find that appeal to precedent persuasive, go ahead and submit a Frankmail, and do post the response when it arrives. But until then I'm comfortable with the consensus that M9-G8 can modify an ally's dice when attacking Dark Curse.