Seams a lot of people are building list to out acatavite there opponents and this is starting to limit list building. Is now the time FFG introduce the ability to pass if your opponent has more ships to activate? This works well in imperial assault. Would it work well in Armada?

If we do get it I think it will help a lot with building more unique lists

@Warlord Zepnick started this thread for folks to post their experiences with this idea. I have not tried it myself.

Does it work when in imperial assault? Havent things got worse and all the lists are now the same?

Thing is, if you play Armada casually it almost doesn't matter, since much of the time we're experimenting rather than optimising.

However, having said that, I would still be keen to explore something that changes the activations mindset since even when we're experimenting we're always cognizant of the need for a min of 4 activations. Another option is to play 500 point games as that also opens up list building.

Rather than a pass mechanic, how about flotilla's activate in the squad phase with an exception that each large base ship in your fleet allows you to activate one in the ship phase?

i haven't any experience in playing this, just throwing it out there as another option.

As one of the main people that was saying that the pass rule would be healthy for the game, and as one of the main people who is taking a ton of activations, I whole-heartedly agree that it would go a long way to create more diverse fleets. I only play tested it a few times, but when I did, the game felt much more open. Of course, my experience is anecdotal, but I know other people who tried it and felt the same way. More things become viable and flotillas still were very helpful, just didn't act as pure activation soak.

The problem with this that keeps getting missed is quality of activation over quantity. Quantity gets you a tactical advantage, but you can do less damage in a single activation and you lose combat power easier. Quantity pushes out a ton of combat power all at once and is takes a lot more to reduce, but comes at the cost of flexibility. I won't dispute quantity has the edge right now. However, the IA pass mechanic would create a meta of exclusively big heavy hitters that can push a ton of damage with no loss of flexibility. MSU would be dead. Oh, and squadrons would take no discernable hit. You would just go from flotillas pushing squadrons a little at a time to big ships pushing a large gaggle of squadrons backed up by flight controllers all at once.

Now a pass mechanic that's part of an upgrade would be a different story altogether. I can get down with that.

25 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

The problem with this that keeps getting missed is quality of activation over quantity. Quantity gets you a tactical advantage, but you can do less damage in a single activation and you lose combat power easier. Quantity pushes out a ton of combat power all at once and is takes a lot more to reduce, but comes at the cost of flexibility. I won't dispute quantity has the edge right now. However, the IA pass mechanic would create a meta of exclusively big heavy hitters that can push a ton of damage with no loss of flexibility. MSU would be dead. Oh, and squadrons would take no discernable hit. You would just go from flotillas pushing squadrons a little at a time to big ships pushing a large gaggle of squadrons backed up by flight controllers all at once.

Now a pass mechanic that's part of an upgrade would be a different story altogether. I can get down with that.

I really dispute this idea that MSU lists would be dead, now they would just be open to, you know, actually getting shot at by those quality activations.

MSUs would still have the advantage of having their points and firepower spread out, this still gives them incredible flexibility and minimises the impact of each individual ship loss. That doesn't go away. They can still outmanoeuvre low activation lists - again it just would balance that but giving it some risk.

Sorry I'm not ranting at you directly Truth, more at this idea that I see repeated a lot.

There isn't just an edge towards quantity of activations. Right now there's really no good reason why to not aim high.

As an upgrade yes. Most likely a commander ability.

As a core rule of the game maybe not so much.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Does it work when in imperial assault? Havent things got worse and all the lists are now the same?

The pass rule actually made it possible to not have to run 8 or 9 activations to be competitive, where the game was heading. It also creates some strategic choices of when exactly to pass and when to use your activations.

The issue with this past world's was a big change in scoring and the release of a large set of command cards that made figures with the Hunter type exceptionally powerful.

I'm more than a little dubious the pass rule would work as well in Armada, largely because in IA you trade initiative each round,which is a whole other dynamic.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Does it work when in imperial assault? Havent things got worse and all the lists are now the same?

I think the IA results at worlds with the top 16 being nearly all the same list was more a function of the units than the revision to allow a pass. It was a matter of the list being particularly consistent I think.

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

Now a pass mechanic that's part of an upgrade would be a different story altogether. I can get down with that.

Funnily enough there was first an upgrade in IA that allowed you to pass.

are everywhere.

Perhaps an officer upgrade that allows a number of passes, for the entire game, equal to the command value of your flagship.

10 minutes ago, draco193 said:

I'm more than a little dubious the pass rule would work as well in Armada, largely because in IA you trade initiative each round,which is a whole other dynamic.

I have yet to try it but this is how I feel about it. It works in IA because you trade initiative. You keep it in Armada. First player would get a huge advantage by going first and stalling activations.

Hard to say what the outcome would be without a large sample size.

If anyone does decide to try it, play a 3 v 5 activation game.

So we would change a-b-a-a-a-a... for a-a-a-a...-b-a?

Also, right now is not optional, if you don't want activate, sorry. While the passing rule would let you choose in order to avoid being overkilled before activating.

Or is there some kind of limit I am missing?

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

The problem with this that keeps getting missed is quality of activation over quantity. Quantity gets you a tactical advantage, but you can do less damage in a single activation and you lose combat power easier. Quantity pushes out a ton of combat power all at once and is takes a lot more to reduce, but comes at the cost of flexibility. I won't dispute quantity has the edge right now. However, the IA pass mechanic would create a meta of exclusively big heavy hitters that can push a ton of damage with no loss of flexibility. MSU would be dead. Oh, and squadrons would take no discernable hit. You would just go from flotillas pushing squadrons a little at a time to big ships pushing a large gaggle of squadrons backed up by flight controllers all at once.

Now a pass mechanic that's part of an upgrade would be a different story altogether. I can get down with that.

I agree that quality of activations matter, but completely disagree that MSUs would be dead. You still have activations, you still get to use them. If your opponent is passing and taking hits from it, how does that somehow neuter MSU? I can see your point to some degee Re: squadrons,

I actually think an upgrade card that acts as a pass would only exacerbate the current problem, depending on slot and cost. Now someone can spam flotillas and some upgrade card that lets you pass.

3 minutes ago, Caldias said:

I agree that quality of activations matter, but completely disagree that MSUs would be dead. You still have activations, you still get to use them. If your opponent is passing and taking hits from it, how does that somehow neuter MSU? I can see your point to some degee Re: squadrons,

I actually think an upgrade card that acts as a pass would only exacerbate the current problem, depending on slot and cost. Now someone can spam flotillas and some upgrade card that lets you pass.

Ya the upgrade would have to be large base only... Call it tactical command or whatever, price it highly either via points or slot type(s) or discard or whatever... Not that I think the game needs such an upgrade, but I think it does have the potential to add more interesting dynamics to the game

If the first player out-activate the second player he will never get activation advantage and he will hardly take advantage of shooting first several times cause the second player just need to choose don't pass.

If the second player out-activate the first player he will have the activation advantage with the last ship and only that. In fact the first player could change the first shot advantage for activation advantage whenever the first shot meant nothing.

I am not sure if I would feel confortable playing an 1st MSU with that pass rule. Demo would be better as long as activation advantage wouldn't work against it anymore.

But all these are just abstractions. I didn't try the rule yet.

However as I said somewhere I would prefer a "fix" through upgrades. I don't like the pass-upgrade. I mean stuff like slicer tools (its timing), thinks that can punish activation fleet for delaying some activations. Right now we only have slicer, demo and delayed RLBs. We just need more.

Just my thoughts.

Is it mostly a question of when you're behind on activations being in a greater position of always being "wrong" with what you choose to activate? Part of quality is the timing. If your timing is always "wrong" because you're behind on activations does it matter how good the quality is?

25 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So we would change a-b-a-a-a-a... for a-a-a-a...-b-a?

Also, right now is not optional, if you don't want activate, sorry. While the passing rule would let you choose in order to avoid being overkilled before activating.

Or is there some kind of limit I am missing?

With a-a-a-a - B - a the timing for B becomes much more favorable. Always a- B -a-a-a-a means the a ships more or less always know when B will go and therefore have far more control over the order of engagement. B had better be bringing a very high quality activation.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:26 AM, Caldias said:

I agree that quality of activations matter, but completely disagree that MSUs would be dead. You still have activations, you still get to use them. If your opponent is passing and taking hits from it, how does that somehow neuter MSU? I can see your point to some degee Re: squadrons,

I actually think an upgrade card that acts as a pass would only exacerbate the current problem, depending on slot and cost. Now someone can spam flotillas and some upgrade card that lets you pass.

I've played triple ISDs against an Ace Hole list and an MSU list with a mechanic that allowed passing. The ISDs just rolled over everything. They didn't even need squad cover. The solution needs to be finding ways to give large ships just a little bit more flexibility to get them into better positions. A full-on pass mechanic would be too far.

I am not going to dispute there is a problem. 5 activations is starting to feel like the minimum. I'm also as guilty as any other higher level player in abusing activations. I routinely use six now and I'm the jack *** running eight in a CC campaign. I'd just hate to see an over correction. I was onboard with a pass mechanic until I saw it in action. It really is that powerful with large ships.

I think everyone can agree that something seems off when a Corvette (any small ship for that matter) delays activation until your ISD (or any ship) moves into its arc, the Corvette then unloads and then flys off (this alone isn't really a big deal to me).

The above example is exacerbated when the ISD moves in the arc of the delay ship, the Corvette fires, moves staying in the front arc of the ISD and then next turn activates first to unload again before flying off receiving no damage in return. Seems wrong to me.

You can extrapolate this to VSDs and and ISDs and almost all expensive front arc ships, that expensive ships lead to less activations, which increases the chance that you'll never catch anything in your front arc because you get out activated like the example above.

Now theres always the counter "Git Gud" (which I dont understand how being proficient at something requires poor spelling), but I think that over simplifies the issue. If something only required finesse to use it effectively you'd see "gud" players still be able to compete at the higher levels with those more expensive front arc ships. And they DO as the tournament data shows IF they take an obscene amount of transports so as not to be overly out activated.

Just a thought... How bout a Vassal tournie using the proposed rule? Nothing crazy but it allows people to play 3 games with it and allows people to test out lists that would be deemed uncompetitive. (Dual ISD, two ship lists etc). You'd then be able to have a more informed discussion about the pros and cons and how people feel about it as opposed what people think. Come June I'd be more than happy to put on a Vasssal tournie as I'll be looking at an escape from the last couple months of normal hectic life.

Hm. Monday nights are the main Armada night locally. I think I'll try a 2 activation list against a 5+ with that mechanic. See how powerful it feels.

I'm okay if it balances the game towards large ships as it seems to be easier to provide upgrades that help swarms over upgrades that help low activation fleets.

My thought would be an Officer upgrade that's only available for Medium or Large ships (maybe even just Large), that just says something like: "During the ship phase you may exhaust this card instead of activating this ship." And somehow only allow one of these cards per fleet maybe?

2 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Perhaps an officer upgrade that allows a number of passes, for the entire game, equal to the command value of your flagship.

I like this a lot too though.

6 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

My thought would be an Officer upgrade that's only available for Medium or Large ships (maybe even just Large), that just says something like: "During the ship phase you may exhaust this card instead of activating this ship." And somehow only allow one of these cards per fleet maybe?

I like this a lot too though.

The exhaust officer is interesting, but it can almost have the same effect as just a pass rule. Take this fleet:

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 137 total ship cost

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 137 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
= 47 total ship cost

1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)

Now bump the ISDs down to Is and I take this exhaust officer and now have 7 activations. Isn't that the same thing as just having a pass rule, almost? I understand that squadron fleets would be able to delay, and have more punch, but I dunno. It seems to me that I can already play the activation game with ISDs, but it hasn't broken anything yet. The officer that would allow passing per command value would be way too good in my opinion. The activation delay in many fleets stops mattering once engagement happens.

Yeah, that's a good point. I suppose that's why you'd have to limit it to one such officer per fleet? I know Flotillas already to give those extra activations, and do it very well, but I think big ships need something that small ships can't have access to.