I would normally say no but recent FAQ (re: XX9 and APT) makes me think yes...

Also can it block Dodonna's Pride?

No.

Resolve Damage: 1 The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. 2 Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. 3 Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

Crits happens at 1. Bright Hope at 3.

The FAQ has nothing to do here. It talks about damage cards.

I get what you're saying, @ovinomanc3r - but there is a point.

First things First - I don't think it does, I don't think it should, and I don't think it is intended.....

However

Previously, we were perfectly happy that Crits were Crits, and Damage was Damage, and there was no overlap. We'd even been told that via EMail... But now, we find out, due to Fire Control Team, and APT, that the Critical Damage cards dealt are the first Damage cards dealt this turn... Rather than Damage Cards being dealt purely during the Deal Damage sub-step of the rules...

So there is an argument to be made... I don't think its correct, and I don't think its intended, but the argument could be made, that ACM, for example, if the original shot did not target your rear zone, could see the total damage reduced by 1.

Of course, it asks additional questions. Which of the 1 damage is reduced, the left or the right, for example...

In the end, I do believe that you are reducing damage, and, for example, APT inflicts a damage card specifically.

So that's certainly not a difference.

But ACM might be. That inflicts Damage. Not damage cards specifically.

Uuuuhhhhh... I think it actually does block 1 point of ACM damage in a zone other than the rear. But only once, because it's a "while".

Definitely not APT, which is "deal a face up damage card," but with the wording on ACM vs BH...

You can certainly choose which zone you would reduce the damage in though. And actually, the way BH is worded, it's the targeted zone that matters, which means 1) if BH is being attacked in a side zone, it could choose to mitigate the damage on the rear, but 2) if it's being attacked in the rear zone, it could not mitigate any of it.

Interesting, if niche.

Yes, with ACM definitely.

I am not trying to troll. Just to figuring out all we could:

Is the ship the same that the hull zone?

I will explain myself.

- Bright Hope points to you (the ship)

- ACM points to hull zones.

Is this something?

What would happen with Major Derlin?

Before suffering damage it was supposed to be after "totaling"(is this word correct?) damage but not anymore, right? What would be the total damage from ACM? 2?

Time for a new Where the FAQ is the FAQ? thread? At least we will have the wave 6 and the episode viii in between.

So since the ACM damage is separate from the regular damage do you reduce the damage from each by one?

2 minutes ago, Rettere said:

So since the ACM damage is separate from the regular damage do you reduce the damage from each by one?

No, Damage can only be reduced by 1, once - that is the "While" trigger on Bright Hope at work.

Plus, if it reduces the Damage by ACM by 1, then it won't be reducing the "Damage Total" at the end, by 1.

Thanks!

Wouldn't this be like gallant haven in that you need to be defending from an attack? ACM isn't an attack but instead a card effect so can't be reduced.. thoughts?

14 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

Wouldn't this be like gallant haven in that you need to be defending from an attack? ACM isn't an attack but instead a card effect so can't be reduced.. thoughts?

BH is "While defending against an attack." As part of the attack (the beginning of "Resolve Damage"), the ACM/APT proc is clearly part of the attack. Whether the damage applied thereby was part of the "total damage" of the attack was hotly contested (well... really me vs. everybody else, as I remember it [citation needed] ) until the recent FAQ clarified the interaction between APT, Fire Control Team, and the standard crit. That FAQ clarified that APT, despite being a critical effect, counted as a damage card having been dealt "by this attack" for the purpose of the standard critical effect, which sets the precedent for every critical effect counting as being part of the attack rather than an independent event. Which means BH applies to it.

Now, it doesn't apply to APT , because of the wording on the crit effect: it's a damage card dealt , rather than the target suffering damage, as from an attack. ACM is different, though, in that it specifically says that the target is suffering damage, making it consistent with the wording on BH.

It's... convoluted.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

BH is "While defending against an attack." As part of the attack (the beginning of "Resolve Damage"), the ACM/APT proc is clearly part of the attack. Whether the damage applied thereby was part of the "total damage" of the attack was hotly contested (well... really me vs. everybody else, as I remember it [citation needed] ) until the recent FAQ clarified the interaction between APT, Fire Control Team, and the standard crit. That FAQ clarified that APT, despite being a critical effect, counted as a damage card having been dealt "by this attack" for the purpose of the standard critical effect, which sets the precedent for every critical effect counting as being part of the attack rather than an independent event.

It's... convoluted.

That it is, FFG loves to make these rulings that make little sense.

51 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

BH is "While defending against an attack." As part of the attack (the beginning of "Resolve Damage"), the ACM/APT proc is clearly part of the attack. Whether the damage applied thereby was part of the "total damage" of the attack was hotly contested (well... really me vs. everybody else, as I remember it [citation needed] ) until the recent FAQ clarified the interaction between APT, Fire Control Team, and the standard crit. That FAQ clarified that APT, despite being a critical effect, counted as a damage card having been dealt "by this attack" for the purpose of the standard critical effect, which sets the precedent for every critical effect counting as being part of the attack rather than an independent event. Which means BH applies to it.

Now, it doesn't apply to APT , because of the wording on the crit effect: it's a damage card dealt , rather than the target suffering damage, as from an attack. ACM is different, though, in that it specifically says that the target is suffering damage, making it consistent with the wording on BH.

It's... convoluted.

Well.. that's complicated. When would this even be a problem? Even with one crit rolled you could still reduce the damage from the crit die by one.

I suppose that if your transport had 2 damage cards and the defending hull zone had shields but the adjacent one didn't you would want to reduce the damage on the shieldless zone.

How then is brace different? Can it not reduce ACM damage because crits resolve before tokens? But bright hope says reduce total damage too.. is it because the bright hope card doesn't specify a timing that we allow it to reduce the ACM damage?

sorry.. questions whose answers probably seem obvious to the more seasoned players

edit: it does say 'before you suffer damage'

does that count during the resolve damage step? Because if so that's after the resolve crit step... or since the ACM card says 'suffer damage' can the bright hope spring into action there.. it does say total damage though.. not clear to me at all

1 hour ago, durandal343 said:

How then is brace different? Can it not reduce ACM damage because crits resolve before tokens?

If nothing else, brace is different and doesn't work on ACM - "Because it says so in the FAQ"

Assault Concussion Missiles

The damage caused by this card cannot be reduced by the BRACE defense token.

Like I mentioned - once upon a time, the timings were distinct... You had your Critical Damage, and then you had your Suffer Damage from Attack.

By muddling the "First Damage card from this attack" to include APTs as that, you include critical damage as Damage suffered from the Attack........ Which messes up the whole step...

But its also the way it is .

Which makes it hard to parse in an ongoing rules discussion.

15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Assault Concussion Missiles

Like I mentioned - once upon a time, the timings were distinct... You had your Critical Damage, and then you had your Suffer Damage from Attack.

We ee eelllll ... sort of. The timings were clear, sure, but the categorization never was. Both fall under the "Resolve Damage" step, so that right there makes the claim that critical effect damage is not dealt by the attack pretty dubious.

I'll absolutely concede that the whole framework is definitely poorly constructed and not rigorously worded, so (pre-FAQ) there was room for disagreement; but it's not like it was ever clear cut that damage dealt by a special critical effect was not "dealt by the attack".

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

We ee eelllll ... sort of. The timings were clear, sure, but the categorization never was. Both fall under the "Resolve Damage" step, so that right there makes the claim that critical effect damage is not dealt by the attack pretty dubious.

I'll absolutely concede that the whole framework is definitely poorly constructed and not rigorously worded, so (pre-FAQ) there was room for disagreement; but it's not like it was ever clear cut that damage dealt by a special critical effect was not "dealt by the attack".

I did put a lot of stock in the email that explicitly told me so, for sure...

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I did put a lot of stock in the email that explicitly told me so, for sure...

Now that we've seen repeatedly just how much thought goes into those emails, I'm re-evaluating how much stock I put in them, myself...

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Like I mentioned - once upon a time, the timings were distinct... You had your Critical Damage, and then you had your Suffer Damage from Attack.

By muddling the "First Damage card from this attack" to include APTs as that, you include critical damage as Damage suffered from the Attack........ Which messes up the whole step...

But its also the way it is .

Which makes it hard to parse in an ongoing rules discussion.

Sorry I made you repeat yourself.. I teach so I know how frustrating that can be.. pay attention kids!!!

But seriously.. thank you for the work you put into clarifying rules etc. It really helps a noob like me figure things out. In a game like this it can really be a struggle to get ahold of all the intricacies. I think I need a couple games of Sorry! to rest my brain.

Brace C: When damage is totaled during the “Resolve Damage” step, the total is reduced to half, rounded up.

Not as brace. Brace has a clearly timing "when damage is totaled" and that occurs after the critical. So brace and BH, MD or GH are different. However squadrons cannot suffer critical effects so GH has nothing do to here.

Are people saying it reduces ACM and then the remaining damage by 1? in effect twice?

Otherwise unless the ACM is the only damage being applied, which I am not even sure is possible, you have to have a Hit/Crit on a black dice to even trigger them, so you have 2 damage, and 2 damage, Bright Hope reduces the total by 1 as the attack was not made against the rear arc, why would it reduce ACM damage? there is already non ACM damage to reduce.

Or am I being unusually dense and missing the point completely?

34 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Are people saying it reduces ACM and then the remaining damage by 1? in effect twice?

Otherwise unless the ACM is the only damage being applied, which I am not even sure is possible, you have to have a Hit/Crit on a black dice to even trigger them, so you have 2 damage, and 2 damage, Bright Hope reduces the total by 1 as the attack was not made against the rear arc, why would it reduce ACM damage? there is already non ACM damage to reduce.

Or am I being unusually dense and missing the point completely?

No. Just once as per "while". What is being said is that the 1 damage point could be reduced from ACM damage instead of the "total" damage summed after the crit effect following the fact that:

1. It is while defending against an attack not targeting your rear hull zone.

2. You are going to suffer damage, so before that you use BH.

That "corner" case is pretty real as if I shoot your front arc with an accuracy and a black double and you have no sides shields.

Less corner situation if we keep in mind that Major Derlin is the same.

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Not as brace. Brace has a clearly timing "when damage is totaled" and that occurs after the critical. So brace and BH, MD or GH are different. However squadrons cannot suffer critical effects so GH has nothing do to here.

No I was trying to draw a parallel between the fact that galant haven can't reduce damage from effects like Biggs passing damage etc.. I realize that ACM don't work on squads

but as has been stated.. ACM counts as part of he attack so is reducible

I think if the attack does not target the rear hull zone, the ACM damage can be reduced even if the adjacent hull zone is the rear that suffers damage.

If the attack targets the rear, ACM will not be reduced on the adjacent hull zones.

Total damage reduced is 1.