With all this talk on squadrons right now, what are so good anti-squadron platforms for both rebel and imperial builds? Pick out a ship(s) and upgrades we currently have and deck them out!!

Rebels: AF MKA, Gunnery Team, Toryn Farr nearby.

Imperials: Obviously Flechette Raider. GSD2 can be used for a part time squadron duty or GSD2 with Ruthless Strategists (and Demolisher and Kallus) is deadly to squads.

ISD (esp ISD1 ) with Kallus and QLT provides a nice deterrent.

I believe Kallus is potent, but the three times I played him I faced: No squads, a pile of YT-2400s, and bunch of TIE Fighters. Someday he will shoot at an ace.

I think the Quasar's Red die with Kallus will be effective.

I've had a thought on using flotillas. Here's a thought.

GR-75 medium transports with Bright Hope, RLBs(with A-wings), Toryn Farr, jamming field

paired with

GR-75 combat retrofits with QLT and repair crews

I was trying Sato Liberty2 with OE. However, I find that the Liberty itself doesn't really offer that much firepower to put on target... and any list I concocted would have been better with more squadrons, more BCC, less Liberties, and Rieekan instead.

32 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I was trying Sato Liberty2 with OE. However, I find that the Liberty itself doesn't really offer that much firepower to put on target... and any list I concocted would have been better with more squadrons, more BCC, less Liberties, and Rieekan instead.

This can be said for all lists period lol

Right now a raider 1 with flechette torpedoes is the most effective. ISDs and the mc80s (all three double dice flavors) don't want to shoot at fighters they want other capital ships.

Rebels do have the assault frigate Mark 2 but again that wants to shoot other capital ships.

I think there is most certainly room for some serious, modestly costed, anti-squad upgrades in the game right now.

Basically, cluster bombs how they *should have been* would be an interesting addition. Something along the lines of an exhaust or discard upgrade that does 3 blue or black dice damage to every squadron within distance X of the initial target, unblockable. like a ten-numb ability for ships. This would discourage massing squads making intel and Bomber commands way less efficient and squadrons in general would have an answer that wasn't automatically "other squadrons"

Oddly enough, the lowly, forgotten Assault Pelta is a delightful blend of cheap, and mean. One Blue / One Black for 1.25 damage average at close range. Can take Flechettes, if you don't mind only a 1/4 chance of success. Decent front arc for guarding a flank on a Liberty. With both Brace and Redirect, they're more stout than their Imperial Flak counterpart, the Raider.

More importantly, we can reasonably suspect that the one Hammerhead variant will have a black anti-squadron and access to ordinance and weapons teams.

6 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Oddly enough, the lowly, forgotten Assault Pelta is a delightful blend of cheap, and mean. One Blue / One Black for 1.25 damage average at close range. Can take Flechettes, if you don't mind only a 1/4 chance of success. Decent front arc for guarding a flank on a Liberty. With both Brace and Redirect, they're more stout than their Imperial Flak counterpart, the Raider.

If only they had rerolls. I keep dreaming of the day an officer card comes along that grants black dice rerolls, something that would work great with the Phoenix home title as well (allowing a second officer).

I will admit to some success using them for AA though, just not with flechettes

No upgrades needed on this, but 3 or 4 Neb B Escorts work well if used well. You can often get 4-6 dice on each squad a turn.

Just now, homedrone said:

No upgrades needed on this, but 3 or 4 Neb B Escorts work well if used well. You can often get 4-6 dice on each squad a turn.

I wrote some lists for this, but found that I kept running out of points around 3.5 to 4 nebulons, and didn't really feel like the lists had major strengths to be worth it.

Again, being Rebels, with fighters, going AA... was also overshadowed by same comparison to the Rieekan squadron lists.

There were also too many inconsistencies with getting Nebulon and Liberty firepower on target. Whereas it was much easier to take FCTs and chuck more squadrons into it.

I also tried two Liberties with OE (and maybe Sato). It was clumsy. Hard to get the Liberties to have chances to actually spray the squadrons, and really wanted Gunnery Team to get more firepower.

The list I did pretty good with was 3 Neb-B Escorts with FCTs, One was Yavaris with FC. There was a liberty with Quad Turbolaser Cannons, H9 and Gunnery Team. Lastly, there were 2 B-wings and a YT1300. There were some other cards in there I'd have to look at the list again to see exactly what. And I swapped the general around a bit to try different stuff. But this was when wave 4 just came out. A common list in my area was 2 Flotilla, 2 other ships and a bunch of squads. So it was usually 4 activations vs 4 activations, mine being all warships theirs being half warships. The b-wings and 1300 would try and get stuck into the enemy fighters somewhere near the Nebs. It wasn't the list to end all lists, but it did what I was hoping. And it did confirm to me that 3 Neb B Escorts close together was a tricky thing for an opponent to deal with for both ships and fighters if deployed well. Especially with the right escort of fighters and a support from something else. Like a Liberty.

Give large ships a free anti squadron shot!

Give all ships a free anti-squadron shot if they haven't attacked a squadron this round already.

(Honestly, I'm not sure that's a good thing).

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Give all ships a free anti-squadron shot if they haven't attacked a squadron this round already.

(Honestly, I'm not sure that's a good thing).

Maybe at half their anti-squadron armament rounded up.

21 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Give all ships a free anti-squadron shot if they haven't attacked a squadron this round already.

(Honestly, I'm not sure that's a good thing).

thought-simming this, not anything rigorous. Specifically trying to not make value judgements, just trying to project consequences. Also assuming that it ends up balanced, so it doesn't make squad play disadvantaged, but just brought us to a point where 0 squad points, 67 squad pts and 134 squad points are all equally valid approaches. Balancing might mean coming up with a similar approach even if it's not exactly your idea.

Full AA arc, or just make Impetuous baseline? Assuming AA arc.

It would add attack vectors as a part of squadron play. I'm imagining a L+2S+2Flot fleet flying in a W or M-formation. The 2 ships at the tips of the wings or peaks of the M would be more exposed, but the core ship & the 2 trailing ships would be largely immune to squads until the escorts are killed. The carrier admiral could certainly order his bombers to make a suicide run on the center ship, hoping to take it down. But they would be wiped out afterwards, as they would be exposed to 4 AA arcs, depending on how close the formation is flying, and whether the fleet was using blue or black AA dice. (A couple of fighters could probably hug the nose of the ISD/Lib & be obstructed from other ships, until the ISD dies) Generally, the space around a fleet in formation would be double-covered everywhere except the wingtip ships, and in obstruction shadows.

Triangle, trapezoid, or diamond formations wouldn't be as well protected in the core, but the edges wouldn't be as exposed. Overall, I suspect that this would encourage mixed big/small fleets or MSUs, rather than All Caps.

It would also place a premium on maneuverable carriers, since a carrier fleet could not stand up to the center of that fleet, and would have to run out of the attack path before it came into gun range. Having a pelta with entrapment formation would be a tough choice compared to AFFM. This would also advantage AFM, MC80, ISD, and VSD carrier lists comparatively, as they carry significant onboard firepower and durability compared to Nebs, Quasars, and Flotillas. Fast fighters & Rhymer would also gain comparative advantage over slow fighters. Relay would also be encouraged, as it would keep the carriers away from the enemy ships. TIE fighters & similar light fighters could really only be used in a defensive role, since they would die very quickly if they got into the enemy formation.

Blue (or Red!) AA dice would be highly prized, as would Kallus, Toryn Farr & any similar future upgrades. Flechettes would become very powerful. Keeping flechette raiders in the trailing points of the W, to dart forward & disrupt a bomber formation at the start of the round would probably be a popular tactic.

Oh, and this would also mean that no ship would take their 2nd shot at squads if they had any other targets, since their choices are A) Shoot at Squads with 2 arcs, B) Shoot at Squads with 1 arc, then ships with another, or C) Shoot at ships twice, then squads. Conversely, you don't want to give your opponent shots at your ships & squads out of 3 arcs. Gunnery Teams would become more valuable. Don't know if an ISD with Gun Team could shoot 2 ships & anti-squad all from the front arc.

If instead you meant "attack 1 squadron" then that would endanger generic intel ships, since they don't have the defense tokens, and are generally low-hull. Squadronless lists would instead target key aces, so generics would be strengthened comparatively. "Attack 1 squadron" would have the downside that it would hurt low or medium fighter lists more than heavy fighter lists.

Anyway, those are my projections for how it would affect fighter/bomber tactics and counter-tactics, if it were possible to get this sort of effect in a balanced way.

Best anti-squadron platform is other squadrons. I'm serious- when shooting at enemy squadrons, only your squadrons are capable of consistently delivering enough hits to kill enemy squadrons easily. You also don't lose capital ship efficiency when telling squadrons to shoot at enemy squads.

But clearly the question isn't about squadrons. So, ships.

One die is useless- I've seen too many desperate VSD shots being blasted to the wind to throw that option out. Anything with two dice is an automatic advantage on AA shooting, with the best being:

Raider. Flichette Torpedoes and Kallus let you shut down and strike squadrons you're shooting at. Kallus gives this a bonus, potentially driving it up to a shutdown and two damage against an ace squadron. Two black dice also has the highest chance for hits. The big drawback to this is 6 points of damage into one arc will destroy the ship, and it has very little in the way of survivability once it gets targeted by ships. When focused, Raiders go down quickly than you'd like, and that F-torp Kallus raider is pretty pricey.

Nebulon-B. I swear they're good for something, the Escort version comes with two AA and it's the cheapest two-dice AA for the Rebellion. It's often the Yavaris only because it has squadron 2, but the Escort version can also probably do 2 damage against all squads at medium range if they roll perfectly. If Toryrn is helping friendly squads, she can also help every one of the Neb's AA shots as well. Nebulons are frequently passed up though because, as Worlds showed us, it's better to take overwhelming firepower in your squads than buy more floating targets ships of your own. Nebulons are still around because they can enable those disgusting 6 attacks, which is probably the best anti-fighter anything in the game at the moment.

ISD-II. It's still the best at everything, two blue AA is the same advantage on the Nebulon but on a bigger hull and with more space for other things like Ruthless Strategists. A crush-kill-destroy ISD is going to command fighters with Flight Controllers, then follow up with AA blasts at medium range. If you really hate squads, pack Cluster Bombs in the defensive slot and wait for a B-Wing to attack you- then either wipe it out (if its damage) or bring it down so your squads can finish it off.

Gladiator-IIs are used on occasion for being cheaper and more resilient AA, but GSDs are still only taken for Demolisher in my view, and aren't usually taken barebones for the purpose of AA shots. I've never considered taking a GSD for squadron advantages, but technically it is possible, and it's better protected than the Raider.

4 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Oddly enough, the lowly, forgotten Assault Pelta is a delightful blend of cheap, and mean. One Blue / One Black for 1.25 damage average at close range. Can take Flechettes, if you don't mind only a 1/4 chance of success. Decent front arc for guarding a flank on a Liberty. With both Brace and Redirect, they're more stout than their Imperial Flak counterpart, the Raider.

More importantly, we can reasonably suspect that the one Hammerhead variant will have a black anti-squadron and access to ordinance and weapons teams.

Had my humble Assault Pelta more or less singlehandedly solo a TIE Defender and Zertik Strom tonight.

4 hours ago, Baltanok said:

thought-simming this, not anything rigorous. Specifically trying to not make value judgements, just trying to project consequences. Also assuming that it ends up balanced, so it doesn't make squad play disadvantaged, but just brought us to a point where 0 squad points, 67 squad pts and 134 squad points are all equally valid approaches. Balancing might mean coming up with a similar approach even if it's not exactly your idea.

Full AA arc, or just make Impetuous baseline? Assuming AA arc.

It would add attack vectors as a part of squadron play. I'm imagining a L+2S+2Flot fleet flying in a W or M-formation. The 2 ships at the tips of the wings or peaks of the M would be more exposed, but the core ship & the 2 trailing ships would be largely immune to squads until the escorts are killed. The carrier admiral could certainly order his bombers to make a suicide run on the center ship, hoping to take it down. But they would be wiped out afterwards, as they would be exposed to 4 AA arcs, depending on how close the formation is flying, and whether the fleet was using blue or black AA dice. (A couple of fighters could probably hug the nose of the ISD/Lib & be obstructed from other ships, until the ISD dies) Generally, the space around a fleet in formation would be double-covered everywhere except the wingtip ships, and in obstruction shadows.

Triangle, trapezoid, or diamond formations wouldn't be as well protected in the core, but the edges wouldn't be as exposed. Overall, I suspect that this would encourage mixed big/small fleets or MSUs, rather than All Caps.

It would also place a premium on maneuverable carriers, since a carrier fleet could not stand up to the center of that fleet, and would have to run out of the attack path before it came into gun range. Having a pelta with entrapment formation would be a tough choice compared to AFFM. This would also advantage AFM, MC80, ISD, and VSD carrier lists comparatively, as they carry significant onboard firepower and durability compared to Nebs, Quasars, and Flotillas. Fast fighters & Rhymer would also gain comparative advantage over slow fighters. Relay would also be encouraged, as it would keep the carriers away from the enemy ships. TIE fighters & similar light fighters could really only be used in a defensive role, since they would die very quickly if they got into the enemy formation.

Blue (or Red!) AA dice would be highly prized, as would Kallus, Toryn Farr & any similar future upgrades. Flechettes would become very powerful. Keeping flechette raiders in the trailing points of the W, to dart forward & disrupt a bomber formation at the start of the round would probably be a popular tactic.

Oh, and this would also mean that no ship would take their 2nd shot at squads if they had any other targets, since their choices are A) Shoot at Squads with 2 arcs, B) Shoot at Squads with 1 arc, then ships with another, or C) Shoot at ships twice, then squads. Conversely, you don't want to give your opponent shots at your ships & squads out of 3 arcs. Gunnery Teams would become more valuable. Don't know if an ISD with Gun Team could shoot 2 ships & anti-squad all from the front arc.

If instead you meant "attack 1 squadron" then that would endanger generic intel ships, since they don't have the defense tokens, and are generally low-hull. Squadronless lists would instead target key aces, so generics would be strengthened comparatively. "Attack 1 squadron" would have the downside that it would hurt low or medium fighter lists more than heavy fighter lists.

Anyway, those are my projections for how it would affect fighter/bomber tactics and counter-tactics, if it were possible to get this sort of effect in a balanced way.

This is definitely a drastic call. Which is why I said I wasn't sure. (I actually meant I was kidding.)

What I meant was basically, if you didn't attack a squadron this turn, you could make a 3rd attack, as a normal attack against squadrons, in one arc.

I am not sure what you're saying about triangles and shapes.

Toryn+Yavaris is great for those anti-squad shots. 2 blues is better than 3 reds IMO.

I also like a Raider+OE+Flechette+Instigator.

Naked flotillas are great too.

21 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Naked flotillas are great too.

Hehehe yes they are.

I learnt it after playing three matches with lifeboats. What a waste of points!! Go in and kill squadrons is better.

28 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Hehehe yes they are.

I learnt it after playing three matches with lifeboats. What a waste of points!! Go in and kill squadrons is better.

Bright Hope is probably the most effective thing at attacking squads because only bombers and double hits can deal damage which then gets scattered away. 20 points for a ship that's basically immune to all squadron attacks and gets a black die on all of them is amazing.

I ran a list last year that included:

demo glad two, ( ET,OE,APT)

glad two OE

glad two OE, ozzey.

glad one, engine tec, OE

raider, instigator, OE

two ties

It actually worked quite well, not sure what it would do against a new full fat bomber rebel list.

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Bright Hope is probably the most effective thing at attacking squads because only bombers and double hits can deal damage which then gets scattered away. 20 points for a ship that's basically immune to all squadron attacks and gets a black die on all of them is amazing.

I am a loyal imperial officer. Don't corrupt me!!