Just now, Drasnighta said:

Then enlighten everyone to the uncomplicated solution.

I thought your 3-point breakdown was very uncomplicated.

31 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I thought your 3-point breakdown was very uncomplicated.

But us guys are overcomplicating things.

Not to further muddy waters, but where does Thrawn's "Dial + Dial" fit in your only-3 ways rule?

15 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

Not to further muddy waters, but where does Thrawn's "Dial + Dial" fit in your only-3 ways rule?

As discussed:

You cannot combine, say a Squadron Dial and a Squadron Dial. As you can only activate a command with a dial, and a command can only go once per turn.

This means you can have a Squadron Command by dial and an Engineering Command by dial that was granted by Thrawn, for example...

Exactly the same way as having a Quasar with the Pursuant Title reveal an Engineering Command but still get a Squadron Command (Dial).

But you cannot utilise two of the same Dial. The best thing you can do in the circumstance of revealing a dial that happens to be the same as the Thrawn Granted Dial is to turn the revealed dial into a Token , and then resolve Dial + Token.

This has been confirmed to be design intent as well as being supported by RAW .

You still only get the effect of spending a dial for each command. You can't spend two identical dials because that would be resolving the same command twice. At least that's how I understand it.

Ninja'd by Dras

Oh, I completely get how it works by the rules. I was merely pointing out that, inside the same wave, there are two cards that don't follow the only-three-ways rule. This makes me think we will get a "clarification" on that particular line in the RRG. This is my prediction for the day.

2 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

Oh, I completely get how it works by the rules. I was merely pointing out that, inside the same wave, there are two cards that don't follow the only-three-ways rule. This makes me think we will get a "clarification" on that particular line in the RRG. This is my prediction for the day.

It does follow the only three ways rule, though.

Because each command being resolved is a dial.

And you cannot resolve the same command twice.

Ergo, you cannot resolve Dial + Dial. Only "Dial" for one command, and "Dial" for a different command.

You're right Dras.

8 hours ago, durandal343 said:

I understand there’s another thread where this should be discussed but your logic doesn’t follow here. Leia + token is not two tokens. @Drasnighta had the best logic with resolving a command plus a token is not the same as resolving a command alone and Leia calls for resolving a command dial. The question isn’t whether there’s a game mechanic for resolving two tokens, it’s whether Leias text can trigger if you choose to resolve a dial and a token, which count as one command. I would argue that her text only considers if you’ve spent a dial and doesn’t care if there is an accompanying token. It is not clear and until it is there is a way to argue that any time you spend a dial, even if it is with an accompanying token, Leia will be valid.

Okay so we've got two major issues here.

#1 is Leia tells you she only works when you resolve a command by spending a command dial. That's one of the three ways to resolve a command. You can argue that command+token is also resolving a command by spending a command dial, but I don't find that argument very convincing (as then FFG would have said "when a friendly ship resolves a command other than by spending only a token.")

#2 is the rules disallow and have no mechanic for spending two tokens when resolving a command. "As if it spent a matching command token" requires you to be able to spend that matching command token, which is impossible if you've also spent a regular command token of that kind because there's no mechanics for resolving dial+token+token. No sneaking command tokens in past the rules bouncer, even if they are "as if" invisible command tokens!

I hope FFG issues an FAQ about her and Thrawn ( Pursuant might be nice too for mentioning it's a dial-only squadron command) soon, though. She causes a lot of arguments.

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Then tell me.

Which of these 3 are you resolving when you have this theoretical Dial, Token, Token effect:

A Token

A Dial

A Dial and a Token

A Dial and a Token command is resolved

Leia's card asks "Did you spend a dial?"

Yes I did so I get an extra bonus to my dial.

From what I understand the difference here is that you are saying that Leia's card is restricting you to just spending a dial and if you spend a token too it invalidates her ability. This is because there are only three ways to resolve a command and you are saying that Leia specifically lists only one of those ways. My problem is that the card seems, to me, ambiguous in this regard. It does not say you can spend the token too along with the dial, but it also does not say you can't. It just says that you need to have spent a dial and it needs to be the only command you resolve that activation.

Look, I'm not trying to upset people here and I understand you've been interpreting Armada rules for a long time. I read and value your option on so many different things. Normally I'm in so far over my head that I just defer to your judgment on rules. But on this, I just can't understand the seemingly arbitrary limits people are trying to put on Leia when you really are not spending two tokens. I see that the cards says "by spending a dial" but why does that have to exclude spending a dial and a token?

Again, I really really do value your opinion and I understand that my Armada knowledge is not on the same level as yours or many others on this forum. But I'm also not a stupid person and when I apply my brain to this I feel that it is not clear. I feel like the card was written and intended to be used the way you are saying but I can see arguments for both sides and feel that the card needs some clarification.

Summary:

You are almost certainly right in your interpretation of the card but it's unclear as written.

You say that there are only three ways to resolve a command and Leia lists one of them and all others do not work for her.

I say that Leia's card can be read as just looking for a spent dial and that either of the 2 ways to resolve a command that include spending a dial work.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

#2 is the rules disallow and have no mechanic for spending two tokens when resolving a command. "As if it spent a matching command token" requires you to be able to spend that matching command token, which is impossible if you've also spent a regular command token of that kind because there's no mechanics for resolving dial+token+token. No sneaking command tokens in past the rules bouncer, even if they are "as if" invisible command tokens!

I agree with this. The second part of her card text makes it seem like that command is now being resolved as a dial and a token. So it's turning a dial only command into a dial + token command and leaves no room to add in a token. And I do believe that this is what was intended. But it is not clear and is very confusing. There is still room for people to make arguments for the addition of a stored token to the command.

On an aside.. writing card text has got to be one of the hardest jobs ever. Even when you think you've got it extremely clear on the card, idiots like me will show up and interpret them differently.

3 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

A Dial and a Token command is resolved

Leia's card asks "Did you spend a dial?"

Yes I did so I get an extra bonus to my dial.

From what I understand the difference here is that you are saying that Leia's card is restricting you to just spending a dial and if you spend a token too it invalidates her ability. This is because there are only three ways to resolve a command and you are saying that Leia specifically lists only one of those ways. My problem is that the card seems, to me, ambiguous in this regard. It does not say you can spend the token too along with the dial, but it also does not say you can't. It just says that you need to have spent a dial and it needs to be the only command you resolve that activation.

Look, I'm not trying to upset people here and I understand you've been interpreting Armada rules for a long time. I read and value your option on so many different things. Normally I'm in so far over my head that I just defer to your judgment on rules. But on this, I just can't understand the seemingly arbitrary limits people are trying to put on Leia when you really are not spending two tokens. I see that the cards says "by spending a dial" but why does that have to exclude spending a dial and a token?

Again, I really really do value your opinion and I understand that my Armada knowledge is not on the same level as yours or many others on this forum. But I'm also not a stupid person and when I apply my brain to this I feel that it is not clear. I feel like the card was written and intended to be used the way you are saying but I can see arguments for both sides and feel that the card needs some clarification.

Summary:

You are almost certainly right in your interpretation of the card but it's unclear as written.

You say that there are only three ways to resolve a command and Leia lists one of them and all others do not work for her.

I say that Leia's card can be read as just looking for a spent dial and that either of the 2 ways to resolve a command that include spending a dial work.

In short:

If you accept the rule on Thrawn, then you must accept the rule on Leia, as it is the same rule.

If you don't accept the rule on Thrawn, then you are flying in the face of the person who designed the card. Who stated that the only reason why its not explicitly stated as so was space on the card and an assumption from the designers that the rules would be followed .

If that's still not good enough, then submit it as an official question.

If its been submitted, then you need to wait for the response, because I've already gotten my response, and that's the argument I'm making.

If you need it in an FAQ, then I'm sorry.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In short:

If you accept the rule on Thrawn, then you must accept the rule on Leia, as it is the same rule.

If you don't accept the rule on Thrawn, then you are flying in the face of the person who designed the card. Who stated that the only reason why its not explicitly stated as so was space on the card and an assumption from the designers that the rules would be followed .

If that's still not good enough, then submit it as an official question.

If its been submitted, then you need to wait for the response, because I've already gotten my response, and that's the argument I'm making.

If you need it in an FAQ, then I'm sorry.

Done arguing!

Just wanted to point out that it seemed unclear and will cause people problems..

I'll go slink back into the hole I crawled out of

11 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

Done arguing!

Just wanted to point out that it seemed unclear and will cause people problems..

I'll go slink back into the hole I crawled out of

I shall likewise do the same.

I apologise for my overt hostility... Just found it immensely frustrating to be running myself in circles.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

I shall likewise do the same.

I apologise for my overt hostility... Just found it immensely frustrating to be running myself in circles.

I completely understand... I work with teenagers... It's like trying to claw your way out of a pile of idiocy and when you finally see light more is shoveled on.

I'll explain things for half an hour and someone will invariably ask a the same question that I had spent all that time answering... over and over and over

Did you know that the Alps are in South America? And Spain is between Paris and France?

4 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

Did you know that the Alps are in South America? And Spain is between Paris and France?

No wonder I feel lost all the time.

1 hour ago, Megatronrex said:

No wonder I feel lost all the time.

On a semi-serious note, I had an impeccable sense of direction until I moved halfway across the world.

Now the sky is weird. Weird and backwards during the day, any just flat out foreign at night. Not a **** familiar star.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

On a semi-serious note, I had an impeccable sense of direction until I moved halfway across the world.

Now the sky is weird. Weird and backwards during the day, any just flat out foreign at night. Not a **** familiar star.

I bet that would be disconcerting. It's literally like having your whole world turned upside down.

58 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I bet that would be disconcerting. It's literally like having your whole world turned upside down.

DEMOGORGON!!!!

16 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

DEMOGORGON!!!!

Hmmm. The "Land down under", the "Upside down". I think perhaps you've stumbled upon Dras' true identity.

9 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

Hmmm. The "Land down under", the "Upside down". I think perhaps you've stumbled upon Dras' true identity.

Awezome!

21 hours ago, durandal343 said:

Ok, it might not make sense, but I see no reason without further clarification that it wouldn't work. Look at Leia's text:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. If it does, that ship may not resolve another command this round."

You are limited to one command when you use Leia's ability. She does not give you a token she gives you a bonus for the command dial you've chosen. If you happen to have a token of the same kind the only thing to stop you from using it would be if that were considered resolving another command. As was pointed out earlier matching dials and tokens are the same command.

This really does seem pretty clear when taking into account

dial + token = 1 command

and Leia gives you a bonus to the dial. So it ends up being

BonusLeiaDial + token = 1 command

This may well be an oversight in the wording of the card, but as it is worded there is nothing restricting the use of the token.

This was my original position, and I probably was not the only one to think that the reading of the card gave you a "Super Dial" so to speak.

I guess the text would have read something like this to support the "Super Dial" reading:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token, but did not actually do so..."

Because if you didn't actually spend a matching token with a dial, then you wouldn't be precluded from using a token in conjunction with the "Super Dial" However, if you did use a matching token with the dial, that counts as a single resolution of the command, as others have stated. The card says "as if"

To come to your conclusion, you have to breath in new text to the card which just doesn't exist.

3 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

This was my original position, and I probably was not the only one to think that the reading of the card gave you a "Super Dial" so to speak.

I guess the text would have read something like this to support the "Super Dial" reading:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token, but did not actually do so..."

Because if you didn't actually spend a matching token with a dial, then you wouldn't be precluded from using a token in conjunction with the "Super Dial" However, if you did use a matching token with the dial, that counts as a single resolution of the command, as others have stated. The card says "as if"

To come to your conclusion, you have to breath in new text to the card which just doesn't exist.

Yeah, I was fairly strong on that view. Then I was beaten into submission by the masses

This seems like something that will be argued across the Armada table by people who haven't visited the Ministry of Love (joke! no offense! I really appreciate the help!) so I still feel that it could be more clear, but acknowledge that making every card extra clear for everyone in the world is an impossible job...

41 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

Yeah, I was fairly strong on that view. Then I was beaten into submission by the masses

This seems like something that will be argued across the Armada table by people who haven't visited the Ministry of Love (joke! no offense! I really appreciate the help!) so I still feel that it could be more clear, but acknowledge that making every card extra clear for everyone in the world is an impossible job...

Well, the other thing is that the superdial + same existing token interpretation makes Leia worth 38 points.

Leia as only dial + token is VASTLY overcosted. As bad as Tarkin, who has a similar effect and cost - although Tarkin was a wave-1 commander, so at least had the excuse of being early in efforts to guesstimate points on things.

10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Well, the other thing is that the superdial + same existing token interpretation makes Leia worth 38 points.

Leia as only dial + token is VASTLY overcosted. As bad as Tarkin, who has a similar effect and cost - although Tarkin was a wave-1 commander, so at least had the excuse of being early in efforts to guesstimate points on things.

Well there I'm not sure I agree because Raymus, who does a similar thing, costs 7 points for this to happen on just one ship. As upgrades go he's on the higher side so this effect must be seen as valuable by the designers/playtesters.

And I feel it's better than Tarkin because you don't have to pick just one command token, it can be customized for each ship you have.