6 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I think this is one of those you can't have one without the other type deals. Mono no aware is the philosophy of the mechanic, impermanence. You really can't have the mechanic without the philosophy.

I remember someone on the podcasts making a fairly good argument that the fate mechanic was introduced to avoid an issue the AGoT LCG has and that "mono no aware" was a justification they came up with afterwards.

I can buy it. Nothing I've seen from the game designers make me think that they're particularly well-versed in Japanese philosophy.

6 hours ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Well Technically the Mantis Clan only existed as a minor clan for about 12 years, and not anywhere near the day of thunder. so according to the empire they were just a bunch of pirates who claimed to be a minor clan.

What are you referring to here? I can't think of anything that lasted for only 12 years.

43 minutes ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

I remember someone on the podcasts making a fairly good argument that the fate mechanic was introduced to avoid an issue the AGoT LCG has and that "mono no aware" was a justification they came up with afterwards.

I can buy it. Nothing I've seen from the game designers make me think that they're particularly well-versed in Japanese philosophy.

Maybe. Nothing I've seen from the game designers has made me think they aren't knowledgeable of Japanese philosophy.

Personally, I don't know the reasons the designers had for these things. I just see this differently than you.

1 hour ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

I remember someone on the podcasts making a fairly good argument that the fate mechanic was introduced to avoid an issue the AGoT LCG has and that "mono no aware" was a justification they came up with afterwards.

I can buy it. Nothing I've seen from the game designers make me think that they're particularly well-versed in Japanese philosophy.

It's alsio worth noting that, as a game of L5R depicts either the wholesale destruction of a Great Clan or its acquisition of political supremacy, things which simply wouldn't happen in a brief period, the concept of characters "passing the torch" makes thematic sense even displaced from the concept of mono no aware.

9 hours ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

I like the Phoenix either way, but enjoy them corrupt better. But then Lion blitz bores me, so if that is all Lion has in the new version i may have to try corrupting Phoenix.

I agree with the sentiment. I like the lion, but not the blitz. If that is the only option I will personally opt for crane. Ideally, each clan will have multiple themes available to them.

11 minutes ago, Doji Hana said:

I agree with the sentiment. I like the lion, but not the blitz. If that is the only option I will personally opt for crane. Ideally, each clan will have multiple themes available to them.

How are you defining a "blitz" in a game where both players should be able to buy people on turn 1, before anyone attacks?

33 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

How are you defining a "blitz" in a game where both players should be able to buy people on turn 1, before anyone attacks?

They've shown cards for Lion that make it seem as though one of their major mechanics will be putting out more characters than their opponent can, with relatively high military skill for their cost. and easy access to 'force' pumps, including a blanket one from their stronghold.

Granted, that's more of a swarm tactic than blitz, but it does seem Lion will also be able to generate better military numbers faster than other clans.

12 hours ago, Yandia said:

I liked Phoenix Inquisitors as villains. I mean nobody expects ....

Thank you for making my day....

As a Mantis player I am quite pleased the Mantis aren't in the base set.

I'm not going to rip up my copy of Shrine to Yoritomo anytime soon but it's definitely more interesting having a story with a lot more room to manoeuvre.

If the Mantis come back, great. If they come back different, greater! If they lurk at the edges with just scraps of information, that's cool too.

The only real problem, and probably the reason why many Mantis or Spider players might sound as though they are complaining, is that it isn't immediately obvious where we go now. That's a bit confusing, and people have to adjust, but the way I see it, picking a clan was one of the most engaging and flavourful bits of L5R - now we get to do it again.

13 hours ago, Supertoe said:

Where's the Oriole clan? I won't play this game if the Oriole clan isn't included.

Even if we go by the FFG history, they're not a clan yet: just a bunch of Master Smiths with Imperial recognition (and possibly the family name Tsi).

2 hours ago, Fumo said:

The only real problem, and probably the reason why many Mantis or Spider players might sound as though they are complaining, is that it isn't immediately obvious where we go now. That's a bit confusing, and people have to adjust, but the way I see it, picking a clan was one of the most engaging and flavourful bits of L5R - now we get to do it again.

My only problem is how long it took me to pick a clan the first time. I read and researched for an entire arc before I pulled the trigger on the Mantis. Even though I'm leaning Crab (they are the Mantis cousins of course, so why shouldn't I support them?) for the time being, I'm still gun shy and not 100% sure I'll buy in right off the bat. Multiple factors in this, not just Mantis being left out, but I'll say that if they had been in there, I would have bought it Day 1 if they had been in there.

It's a tough spot for players to be in. I've played games where they've cut factions (remember Squats in 40K?) before and it alienates players. People have invested time and money into this game. We might not all agree on the execution of different clans, but they're all important to someone. We have to respect that and not just tell people they need to "get over it".

3 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

My only problem is how long it took me to pick a clan the first time. I read and researched for an entire arc before I pulled the trigger on the Mantis. Even though I'm leaning Crab (they are the Mantis cousins of course, so why shouldn't I support them?) for the time being, I'm still gun shy and not 100% sure I'll buy in right off the bat. Multiple factors in this, not just Mantis being left out, but I'll say that if they had been in there, I would have bought it Day 1 if they had been in there.

It's a tough spot for players to be in. I've played games where they've cut factions (remember Squats in 40K?) before and it alienates players. People have invested time and money into this game. We might not all agree on the execution of different clans, but they're all important to someone. We have to respect that and not just tell people they need to "get over it".

Technically Lion are Mantis cousins too, we are just the quiet ones

3 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

People have invested time and money into this game.

Time, sure - we're all spending a lot of that thinking and talking about the LCG. But money? No-one has invested anything yet...the game is not out!

Unless you're talking about GenCon expenses, but I kinda self-justify that as my one holiday a year

10 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

Time, sure - we're all spending a lot of that thinking and talking about the LCG. But money? No-one has invested anything yet...the game is not out!

Unless you're talking about GenCon expenses, but I kinda self-justify that as my one holiday a year

I'm talking about buying the CCG and previous role playing editions. Seeing as they bought the IP rather than create their own setting, they must be hoping to pull most of the players to their new game.

It's a new game, by a new company. I can absolutely guarantee that I'm in the top percentile of 'money spent on L5R' over the last twenty plus years, but that doesn't give me any rights or entitlement over the LCG. No more than someone who played WEG's d6 Star Wars or Decipher's Lord of the Rings CCG had any say into the new games based upon those licenses.

It's a clean break, a fresh start, a new beginning...whatever other cliche we care to throw at it. Yes, FFG would like some of the original game's player base to transfer over, but I deeply believe it's a small percentage of their target audience.

The animals on the clan mons are meant, or were meant, to reflect clan way, right? If the "Mantis" are pirates, would not they better be Shark Clan? Or some other kind of sea based animal? Mantis Shrimp Clan? Not trying to offend anyone or to joke about it, it is something that came to mind while thinking about how gameplay mechanics reflects Great Clans' mons.

10 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

They've shown cards for Lion that make it seem as though one of their major mechanics will be putting out more characters than their opponent can, with relatively high military skill for their cost. and easy access to 'force' pumps, including a blanket one from their stronghold.

Granted, that's more of a swarm tactic than blitz, but it does seem Lion will also be able to generate better military numbers faster than other clans.

Basically this. True, both players purchase people turn one. However, all things being equal, I can easily see the lion generating more force relative to fate investment. While lion might suffer politically or in specific types of combat, such as dueling, a lion player could double down on cost efficient military power.

Assuming easy access to force pumps, similar to the stronghold ability, lion could conceivably purchase more people than their opponent for less fate. Rather than bothering with attachments and other aspects of the conflict deck, the lion player could focus exclusively on low fate cost people, investing extra fate to keep them around longer and resulting in large armies on subsequent turns as more bushi join the conflict.

As indicated by Togashi Gao Shan, this seems more swarm. I would also describe it as blitz because, depending on fate costs, lion could finish the game on turn 3 if it can win just one political conflict by overwhelming the defender through sheer number of people. Potentially even turn 2 of lion can honor a character(s) and win an early political conflict at an unopposed province simply because the defender can't match the number of people fielded by the lion player.

In short, yes this is technically a swarm approach. I only used blitz because of the potential for drastically decreased game times that may result.

Remember, this is all hypothetical and may not be possible. I simply hope that something like this is not the only functional lion deck.

2 hours ago, Wintersong said:

The animals on the clan mons are meant, or were meant, to reflect clan way, right? If the "Mantis" are pirates, would not they better be Shark Clan? Or some other kind of sea based animal? Mantis Shrimp Clan? Not trying to offend anyone or to joke about it, it is something that came to mind while thinking about how gameplay mechanics reflects Great Clans' mons.

Their preferred weapon are the twin kama, when they wield it plus their clan colors..it seems like they are Mantis? Mantices? Mentis?

also Mon doesnt always reflect clan ways..look at the Crab, not all of them walk sideways.

3 hours ago, Wintersong said:

The animals on the clan mons are meant, or were meant, to reflect clan way, right? If the "Mantis" are pirates, would not they better be Shark Clan? Or some other kind of sea based animal?

The Mantis weren't originally pirates in the story. The whole "Mantis = navy" thing is something that got played up later on as AEG was seeking to make them more unique.

1 minute ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

The Mantis weren't originally pirates in the story. The whole "Mantis = navy" thing is something that got played up later on as AEG was seeking to make them more unique.

I know. When I played Alliance, it was nice multicolor mercenary band, exchanging honor for koku. But if in the reboot they were to start as pirates... kamas or not, does not seem very mantis-like. Not a big deal in any case but it would feel a bit strange, like if the Crab were the courtier ones and the Cranes the wall defenders despite the animal in their mons.

I am ignoring the fact that story can force a clan to change, much like Ki-Rin to Unicorn, or FFG reusing art assets to save money, and just focusing in "When we start the setting, we have these clans represented by these mons because of their philosophies".

5 hours ago, Wintersong said:

The animals on the clan mons are meant, or were meant, to reflect clan way, right? If the "Mantis" are pirates, would not they better be Shark Clan? Or some other kind of sea based animal? Mantis Shrimp Clan? Not trying to offend anyone or to joke about it, it is something that came to mind while thinking about how gameplay mechanics reflects Great Clans' mons.

The Manta clan, maybe? It could have a pretty cool mon, and the name would be almost the same.

2 hours ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

also Mon doesnt always reflect clan ways..look at the Crab, not all of them walk sideways.

I think it's supposed to be crab = armored = defense specialists.

8 hours ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

also Mon doesnt always reflect clan ways..look at the Crab, not all of them walk sideways.

"Can't... stop... looking... south!" ::side step, side step, side step::

On 5/17/2017 at 9:25 PM, Yoritomo Reiu said:

Nothing I've seen from the game designers make me think that they're particularly well-versed in Japanese philosophy.

Perhaps not, but luckily Rokugan =/= Japan.

plus they covered that in the covenant interview where they explain that along with playing the lcg they were given resources to look at concerning Japanese samurai culture and they got the idea from those. As some have pointed out tho is why the game mechanic came after the cultural understanding.

14 hours ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

also Mon doesnt always reflect clan ways..look at the Crab, not all of them walk sideways.

If you ask the bald dude, he'll tell you that Crab do it sideways. Check with Yasuki Garou.