I would call that with a brawl check that if you rolled enough success to disarm, that you could , with a few more advantage remove the power pack from the weapon meaning that its more difficult for the opponent to get the weapon up and running again. If they have a back up and quickdraw, it pushes them to use their secondary weapon, if they have no weapon , then they are on your territory and fighting you unarmed. This is something that a ranged combatant cannot do to a brawler and a melee weapon doesn't run out of ammo. The trade off is that it is possible for the ranged combatant to delay people getting into close range, things like called shots to the legs etc, however this means that it becomes more than just throwing shots at each other across the room.

Really If you are willing to be amazingly broken and spend a lot of time at it melee can be very good, but you need force leap as a manuver to start or the wonky race that gets it for free. You need Brawn 4 High Intelligence 6 jedi armorer who has picked up a deadly accuracy and Falling Avalanche, Use implants and armor mod walk around with brawn 7 (your soak will thank you too) and an int implant. Throw in a lightsaber skill mod that you rip from grevious and start going up to people and dealing an 25 base damage plus your roll to them anywhere in medium range. Yes you can cut a tie fighter in half shrug. Of course you are rolling 6 yellows and a green before any other talents. Your soak is around 15 and you can shrug off critical hits with superior armor master.

5 hours ago, syrath said:

I would call that with a brawl check that if you rolled enough success to disarm, that you could , with a few more advantage remove the power pack from the weapon meaning that its more difficult for the opponent to get the weapon up and running again. If they have a back up and quickdraw, it pushes them to use their secondary weapon, if they have no weapon , then they are on your territory and fighting you unarmed. This is something that a ranged combatant cannot do to a brawler and a melee weapon doesn't run out of ammo. The trade off is that it is possible for the ranged combatant to delay people getting into close range, things like called shots to the legs etc, however this means that it becomes more than just throwing shots at each other across the room.

Pulling the power pack sounds like a maneuver to me.

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Pulling the power pack sounds like a maneuver to me.

Pulling a power pack and reloading is a maneuver, reloading is the longer half of the process, pulling the pack and dropping it to the ground is something you see often in cinema martial arts and I would definitely say that this one falls under rule of cool , with sufficient advantage , which means more thanit costs to disarm (1 triumph or 3 advantage) but not more than it costs to break the weapon (2 triumph)

7 hours ago, syrath said:

Pulling a power pack and reloading is a maneuver, reloading is the longer half of the process, pulling the pack and dropping it to the ground is something you see often in cinema martial arts and I would definitely say that this one falls under rule of cool , with sufficient advantage , which means more thanit costs to disarm (1 triumph or 3 advantage) but not more than it costs to break the weapon (2 triumph)

It takes 2 threat to make a maneuver. Assuming you haven't taken one already. Two threat is less than the 3 for disarming, or for "undoing a maneuver"... and dropping a clip is pretty much "undoing a prior maneuver"...

And, unless you're holding it in firing position, hitting the release is pretty damned hard to do. On purpose. They're usually where they won't snag when in the holster, won't stick out when being drawn, and won't be accidentally hit when in (or in-between) firing stances. Some weapons (now) even have grip-safety interlocks so that you can't drop them when held in firing position.

6 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

It takes 2 threat to make a maneuver. Assuming you haven't taken one already. Two threat is less than the 3 for disarming, or for "undoing a maneuver"... and dropping a clip is pretty much "undoing a prior maneuver"...

And, unless you're holding it in firing position, hitting the release is pretty damned hard to do. On purpose. They're usually where they won't snag when in the holster, won't stick out when being drawn, and won't be accidentally hit when in (or in-between) firing stances. Some weapons (now) even have grip-safety interlocks so that you can't drop them when held in firing position.

However this is your action, disarm your opponent and for a few extra advantage also pull the power pack from the weapon. Shouldn't need another maneuver. You are not doing a full reload. Full reload, means a full swap over of a power pack without leaving it sitting in the dirt. Removing the power pac and letting it fall to the ground shouldn't require a maneuver like a full reload does. (ie remove power pack, put it away, take out new power pack, put it in, you are essentially grabbing the power pack and dropping, its like a called shot on a disarm, so pulling out their power pack while they still hold the weapon)

6 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

It takes 2 threat to make a maneuver. Assuming you haven't taken one already. Two threat is less than the 3 for disarming, or for "undoing a maneuver"... and dropping a clip is pretty much "undoing a prior maneuver"...

And, unless you're holding it in firing position, hitting the release is pretty damned hard to do. On purpose. They're usually where they won't snag when in the holster, won't stick out when being drawn, and won't be accidentally hit when in (or in-between) firing stances. Some weapons (now) even have grip-safety interlocks so that you can't drop them when held in firing position.

However this is your action, disarm your opponent and for a few extra advantage also pull the power pack from the weapon. Shouldn't need another maneuver. You are not doing a full reload. Full reload, means a full swap over of a power pack without leaving it sitting in the dirt. Removing the power pac and letting it fall to the ground shouldn't require a maneuver like a full reload does. (ie remove power pack, put it away, take out new power pack, put it in, you are essentially grabbing the power pack and dropping, its like a called shot on a disarm, so pulling out their power pack while they still hold the weapon)

15 hours ago, syrath said:

However this is your action, disarm your opponent and for a few extra advantage also pull the power pack from the weapon. Shouldn't need another maneuver. You are not doing a full reload. Full reload, means a full swap over of a power pack without leaving it sitting in the dirt. Removing the power pac and letting it fall to the ground shouldn't require a maneuver like a full reload does. (ie remove power pack, put it away, take out new power pack, put it in, you are essentially grabbing the power pack and dropping, its like a called shot on a disarm, so pulling out their power pack while they still hold the weapon)

A disarm is NOT a takeaway. A disarm is getting it out of his/her/its hands, and nto the ground. To drop the clip in the process, you need to do a BUNCH more than just one maneuver. A disarm is usually not so much an attack on the weapon as on the wielding hand.

Vs a pistol, the standard disarm is a strike to the back of the hand holding it. Seldom goes ANYWHERE near the magazine release.

Vs a rifle (or a staff), it's variable by stance. The disarm is to strike the weapon such that the force goes in the direction of both thumbs. If it's a port arms, strike the barrel in an upwards motion, rotating it out of the left hand, and hyperrotating agains the right. In a right-handed standing stance, strike the barrel leftwards. In a right hip stance (more for staff than real shooting) snap it down. In all cases, it's about knocking it free.

For a sword, a bunch of techniques exist; the ones I've used successfully have been percussive strikes to the basket and to the tip. Strikes to the forte are almost incapable. Also good are attacks on the wielding hand. (There is a reason my hanwei rapier has an inserted bell of leather.) Strong

In a takeaway, which takes much more training (but note that the training for this is standard in the US Army's version of Aikido), you do very different things.
Pistol, grab by slide, rotate around barrel, preferablty breaking the trigger finger of the wielder in the process.
Rifle, grab the weapon by the forestock and buttstock, then twist. WHy the butt? Leverage. Again, ideally done, it breaks the trigger finger.
Single Edged sword, grab the back of the blade at forte and hilt, and pull up for straight hilts, our straight out from wielder for baskets of all kinds.
Double edged sword, grab the hilt, and if it has one, the foregrip. Otherwise, pommel and quillions.

You still don't have the weapon readied, either .

Mechancially ,
Disarming is 3 threat on an attack. The attack needs to hit, but doesn't need to actually penetrate soak.
Taking away the weapon is 5 threat - three to disarm, 2 more to take the maneuver to pick it up.
Forcing the clip out is in fact cancelling a prior maneuver - and undoing a maneuver is 3 threat.

I'd allow the takeaway as 5 threat without a maneuver.
I'd allow dropping the clip as a 3 threat "undo a prior maneuver" - in fact, I have done so. Some players think that more amusing than disarming them.

On 17/05/2017 at 7:39 PM, Xelian said:

Specializations - Two words - Spy infiltrator. I must admit there are probably better specializations out there but this one really stuck to my mind as an example of shitload of useless talents.

I am currently playing a Spy Infiltrator in another game. They are a very good class. The skill selection is what makes them very capable. Sure the talent tree is a little railroady, but it has some mighty talents on the bottom row.

Regarding melee and the Spy Infiltrator. I set my Brawn to 3 and Cunning to 4 and went for Soft Spot with early XP. I also use a Molecular Stiletto with a mono-molecular edge (Crit -1, Pierce 2). This means I critical hit on 1 Adv, with Pierce 5 (7 with MME - goodbye soak) and if I need to deal more damage, I flip a Destiny Point and use Soft Spot to add Cunning X damage to my attack - pretty much ensuring I beat their soak. If your melee skills are low early on, you can also crank it up with Frenzied Attack and Destiny Points. Combine those skills with a Clawdite (Changeling) and you can be very deadly.

To prove my case, I have just walked into an imperial facility, killed off the Commander and have single-handedly taken over the place as I walk around impersonating them with RRRP as the difficulty to see through my disguise. Good luck with that.

Furthermore, as mentioned above, some melee weapons are designed to critical and incapacitate an opponent, rendering them helpless. Vibro weapons in particular have very low critical ranges (2 Adv) by default and are terrifying with weapon attachments like Balanced Hilt, Custom Grip and Mono-Molecular Edge, all which add plenty of advantages to your pool, triggering those critical hits. Blasters hit harder with higher damage, but they generally have higher critical ranges (3 Adv), so you have to knock down an opponent's wounds.

A Brawn 3/Melee 1 starting character armed with a vibrosword and custom grip (500 credits) can use 2 maneuvers to aim for a pool of YGGBBB PP, which is pretty potent.

Also, some tactics with fighting in melee: I almost always burn strain an Aim twice to add 2 Boost to the pool. You will almost always recover your strain back (1 adv = 1 strain recovered in combat) and if you have extra, trigger those tasty critical hits. Full attack is the way to go against mooks. Against Rivals and Nemeses, try to target their weakness. If they're great in combat, shoot them first to soften them up. If they're shooters, then charge them. Be smart. Use tactics. Sunder their weapon. Disarm them using advantage. Use aimed attacks and discuss with you GM that you'd like to target a body part to cripple them so they burn strain if they move or are immobilised for a round. Wear good armour with soak and defence. Run away if you need to.

TL/DR: Melee is great, if you know what you're doing.

On 5/21/2017 at 7:16 AM, AK_Aramis said:

Called shots are pretty straightforward. You have to aim. If you single-aim, as when first entering melee (because you moved in), they add two black (p. 201).

The effect of Hitting a weapon is fuzzy - it probably should do a damage step (p. 159). You need three advantage to make them drop it. (p. 206) If the attack is only against the weapon, I'd allow 3 success, instead, to disarm, and/or to do an additional damage level to it. Of course, a Triumph gets a damage step...

But you're better off simply attacking them and hoping for the advantage. Still, aim. (Aim is NOT restricted to ranged weapons.)

Note that damage steps aren't too nasty... for the first two. First one adds a black. Second changes it to a purple. Third takes it out of action.

Given the vagueness of the results of Called Shot - I'm aware actually performing it is straight forward - I've taken my cues from the one tree that really focuses on it: Gunslinger. Thematically, we see Gunslingers shooting the guns out of people's hands in a variety of media. Mechanically, Called Shots have to be worth something, which means they have to be a choice you might want to take instead of attacking someone normally. One way I could see this is attacking someone in such a way that you activate a specific crit (probably too strong) or somehow negating certain amounts of Soak or Defense (but why add Setback to negate Setback?). You make your shot harder to make the actual effect of hitting more potent. The other option is being able to do something beside causing damage that is worth giving up damage... I'd say disarming or damaging a weapon is well within the bounds of how I, at least, am imagining Called Shot works.

Also, good other thoughts from people.

Melee builds are all about crits and soak.
Furthermore with the ability to upgrade brawn twice via cybernetics, we are talking her even with just a brawn 3 start about 2 dedications spend on brawn max as brawn 7 is the maximum to reach cybernetic enhancements.

Melee builds become quite easily unstopable monsters who actually laugh at autofire, while usually running a high risk for losing limbs because critial hits are the way to deal with those double digit soak monsters. Those builds combine extreme high mobility, high pierce or even breach, usually a critical rating of 1 together with extreme durability via soak, reflect, parry, endurance, durable and usually even signature talents. If those characters add talents like bodyguard or circle of shelter, etc they can become extremely powerful tanks on top, while ranks in lethal blows makes them one-shot killers. Either way, they are hard to ignore and rather useful assets to most groups.

On 18.5.2017 at 11:15 PM, whafrog said:

That would defeat the purpose. The point was (in response to the previous poster re: story) that the player is running his Enforcer character based on story rather than min-maxing.

So the story dictates the that especialized guy with the rare and awesome equipment and roughly the same experience still … gets knocked out in one hit from the doctor martial artist combo monk ;-)

On 19.5.2017 at 1:12 AM, Desslok said:

Things that are also useless in starship combat:

* Politico trees

* Scholar trees

* Hacking trees

* Gambling trees

Social attacks work over come, scathing tirade over comlink is one of the classics.
Gambler + Hotshot is one of the cookie cutter builds for pilots, thanks to the showboat and all or nothing interaction.
Hacking trees I am not very familiar with, but computers itself is super useful in space combat, jamming, watch my back, target lock, slice enemies systems and scanning are all very powerful actions during and before starship combat.

1 hour ago, Kestin said:

Given the vagueness of the results of Called Shot - I'm aware actually performing it is straight forward - I've taken my cues from the one tree that really focuses on it: Gunslinger. Thematically, we see Gunslingers shooting the guns out of people's hands in a variety of media. Mechanically, Called Shots have to be worth something, which means they have to be a choice you might want to take instead of attacking someone normally. One way I could see this is attacking someone in such a way that you activate a specific crit (probably too strong) or somehow negating certain amounts of Soak or Defense (but why add Setback to negate Setback?). You make your shot harder to make the actual effect of hitting more potent. The other option is being able to do something beside causing damage that is worth giving up damage... I'd say disarming or damaging a weapon is well within the bounds of how I, at least, am imagining Called Shot works.

Also, good other thoughts from people.

I tend to allow sacrificing damage for up to a 3 threat effect, with next level of it, if one exists, as that many successes.
And I treat any direct hit on a blaster as a damage step. Much to a player's chagrin, last week. Made him switch to a secondary... And as a house rule, attacking the weapon, I'd allow spending 3 successes to disarm the wielder of it...

8 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

A disarm is NOT a takeaway. A disarm is getting it out of his/her/its hands, and nto the ground. To drop the clip in the process, you need to do a BUNCH more than just one maneuver. A disarm is usually not so much an attack on the weapon as on the wielding hand.

Vs a pistol, the standard disarm is a strike to the back of the hand holding it. Seldom goes ANYWHERE near the magazine release.

Vs a rifle (or a staff), it's variable by stance. The disarm is to strike the weapon such that the force goes in the direction of both thumbs. If it's a port arms, strike the barrel in an upwards motion, rotating it out of the left hand, and hyperrotating agains the right. In a right-handed standing stance, strike the barrel leftwards. In a right hip stance (more for staff than real shooting) snap it down. In all cases, it's about knocking it free.

For a sword, a bunch of techniques exist; the ones I've used successfully have been percussive strikes to the basket and to the tip. Strikes to the forte are almost incapable. Also good are attacks on the wielding hand. (There is a reason my hanwei rapier has an inserted bell of leather.) Strong

In a takeaway, which takes much more training (but note that the training for this is standard in the US Army's version of Aikido), you do very different things.
Pistol, grab by slide, rotate around barrel, preferablty breaking the trigger finger of the wielder in the process.
Rifle, grab the weapon by the forestock and buttstock, then twist. WHy the butt? Leverage. Again, ideally done, it breaks the trigger finger.
Single Edged sword, grab the back of the blade at forte and hilt, and pull up for straight hilts, our straight out from wielder for baskets of all kinds.
Double edged sword, grab the hilt, and if it has one, the foregrip. Otherwise, pommel and quillions.

You still don't have the weapon readied, either .

Mechancially ,
Disarming is 3 threat on an attack. The attack needs to hit, but doesn't need to actually penetrate soak.
Taking away the weapon is 5 threat - three to disarm, 2 more to take the maneuver to pick it up.
Forcing the clip out is in fact cancelling a prior maneuver - and undoing a maneuver is 3 threat.

I'd allow the takeaway as 5 threat without a maneuver.
I'd allow dropping the clip as a 3 threat "undo a prior maneuver" - in fact, I have done so. Some players think that more amusing than disarming them.

okay, I'm not equating to real life, the system is cinematic, and how many films have you seen where a martial artist grabs a weapon and separates the ammo pack from the weapon, and drops both to the ground. Now lets look at what you can already do in the game

1 triumph disarm opponent

2 triumph destroy weapon

So if a player says to me as a GM that with 1 triumph +2 advantage or 5 advantage that they want to disarm and pull the power pack from a weapon, which is something I have seen frequently in films, i a role playing system that is described as cinematic, you would be right in saying, yes , I would allow that, because, one, ultimately thats a lotof advantage and 2/ its awesomely cinematic

2 hours ago, syrath said:

okay, I'm not equating to real life, the system is cinematic, and how many films have you seen where a martial artist grabs a weapon and separates the ammo pack from the weapon, and drops both to the ground. Now lets look at what you can already do in the game

1 triumph disarm opponent

2 triumph destroy weapon

So if a player says to me as a GM that with 1 triumph +2 advantage or 5 advantage that they want to disarm and pull the power pack from a weapon, which is something I have seen frequently in films, i a role playing system that is described as cinematic, you would be right in saying, yes , I would allow that, because, one, ultimately thats a lotof advantage and 2/ its awesomely cinematic

I've not seen that (disarm while dropping the magazine) in any films. Not one. Ever. I've seen plenty where they used takeaways.
I've seen one TV episode where I recall that they dropped the clip on an opponent's weapon; they didn't disarm them, either.

If you think it's good for your game, bully for you... but it's totally "I'd walk away from your table if it took less than 2 triumuphs or 6 threat to do" and wonder what kind of stupid you are for doing it instead of taking the weapon for yourself instead.

It's not just unrealistic, it's a mechanical waste. Because, for that same pair of triumphs, in my game, you or your buddy likely just grabbed it, or you tossed it over the clif-edge, or some such.

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Furthermore with the ability to upgrade brawn twice via cybernetics, we are talking her even with just a brawn 3 start about 2 dedications spend on brawn max as brawn 7 is the maximum to reach cybernetic enhancements.

Unless you go Cybertech. With two Brawn Cyberware + Armour Strength Mod, you can use Supreme Overcharge to hit 7 Brawn from a base of 2 Brawn. But maybe that is a bit niche.

1 hour ago, Darzil said:

Unless you go Cybertech. With two Brawn Cyberware + Armour Strength Mod, you can use Supreme Overcharge to hit 7 Brawn from a base of 2 Brawn. But maybe that is a bit niche.

Jup it is, especially when you plan a melee build. Though going with high int, int, agi and brawn implants + armor implant, you can do real magic with marauder + cybertech

7 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I've not seen that (disarm while dropping the magazine) in any films. Not one. Ever. I've seen plenty where they used takeaways.
I've seen one TV episode where I recall that they dropped the clip on an opponent's weapon; they didn't disarm them, either.

If you think it's good for your game, bully for you... but it's totally "I'd walk away from your table if it took less than 2 triumuphs or 6 threat to do" and wonder what kind of stupid you are for doing it instead of taking the weapon for yourself instead.

It's not just unrealistic, it's a mechanical waste. Because, for that same pair of triumphs, in my game, you or your buddy likely just grabbed it, or you tossed it over the clif-edge, or some such.

So many examples exist! The Bourne Identity, The Dark Knight, and lots of other examples of this type of behavior can be referenced here —in addition to one of my favorite TV shows (for the simple fact that it feels so much like an RPG party), Leverage, with the reference to Eliot Spencer, the consummate "I hate guns" guy (which, it follows, would be a reason for not "taking the weapon for yourself instead," as you say, @AK_Aramis ). In any case, there's plenty of examples from established TV shows, movies, and written/drawn mediums that show that this is a known action trope.

I would love playing with a character who did this, simply because it's cool. It's the rule of cool; denial with style: "I'm gonna take your gun, disassemble it, and then take you out with my bare hands." To call this stupid—simply because of game mechanics—is, to my estimation, to miss the entire point a roleplaying game. Yes, perhaps your fists deal less raw damage than a blaster bolt. But DPS needn't be one's primary concern, even when playing the role of a combatant.

One argument against "ejecting the magazine" is that blasters don't really use magazines like modern guns. The power packs may be easy to swap, but I don't think the power packs are designed to pop in and out like modern magazines.

8 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I've not seen that (disarm while dropping the magazine) in any films. Not one. Ever. I've seen plenty where they used takeaways.
I've seen one TV episode where I recall that they dropped the clip on an opponent's weapon; they didn't disarm them, either.

If you think it's good for your game, bully for you... but it's totally "I'd walk away from your table if it took less than 2 triumuphs or 6 threat to do" and wonder what kind of stupid you are for doing it instead of taking the weapon for yourself instead.

It's not just unrealistic, it's a mechanical waste. Because, for that same pair of triumphs, in my game, you or your buddy likely just grabbed it, or you tossed it over the clif-edge, or some such.

For two triumphs, you can utterly destroy the weapon and one can disarm, this is not as severe as destroying and is definitely better than just disarming hence 4/5 advantage or triumph +2 adv in my eyes. Ive honestly seen this done plenty of times in Tv and films.

For real life example where the person even holds onto the weapon and ammo afterwards.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-LHTrFsSLZA

4 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

One argument against "ejecting the magazine" is that blasters don't really use magazines like modern guns. The power packs may be easy to swap, but I don't think the power packs are designed to pop in and out like modern magazines.

If they're "easy to swap," but not "designed to pop out," then how in the worlds do you swap them...?

12 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

One argument against "ejecting the magazine" is that blasters don't really use magazines like modern guns. The power packs may be easy to swap, but I don't think the power packs are designed to pop in and out like modern magazines.

You design a gun that isn't easy to correct a malfunction, particularly for combat, and you've designed a gun no one buys.....

There's a difference between being easy to replace and exposed and designed to push a button and it springs right out so you can slap a new one in. Magazines are purely mechanical and have to be done fast because you only get 10 to 30 shots per magazine. A star wars power cell has who knows how many shots. It could be hundreds. Plus you don't really want your power cell exposed like the bottom of a chunk of an aluminum tube.

Being a power cell its not a stretch to believe that it's designed to be quickly and easily swapped but not as quick and easy as a modern magazine. But this is a game of space wizards we're talking about so maybe they are. I'm just presenting a different point of view. Sorry for the badwrongfun.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

You design a gun that isn't easy to correct a malfunction, particularly for combat, and you've designed a gun no one buys.....

Kel-tec's existence puts a damper on this theory, though it would be nice if it were true