2 hours ago, whafrog said:

In my game, yeah, pretty much true. I have an Enforcer player with dual truncheons who will never match the dual-pistol wielding Ace/Gunslinger with dual Dragon's Eye Reaper heavy pistols in terms of raw damage output or crit-frequency.

Well, that would make sense. One character with rarity 1 weapons that cost 15 creds won't match another with Rarity 8 weapons that cost 1000

But if you upgrade the truncheons to standard Vibroswords, you will have better crit than reapers and the same number of hardpoints while gaining defensive 1, pierce 2, and vicious 1. Someone dual wielding vibroswords will do more damage against most enemies per hit than the gunslinger with reapers thanks to the pierce 2, assuming they both have their combat stat at the same level. And Vibroswords are not uncommon.

Melee doesn't have autofire though, which is a big caveat.

I should also point out that not only can brawlers have the highest base damage in the game but also a ha nice suite of effects like knockdown and disorient to go with it , and if you dont believe me on the base damage take a look at what they can do

Feral strength (5 ranks in game iirc) for +5 , 3 are in maurader alone

Pressure point adds 5 for medicine ranks (and bypasses soak)

Walk the Walk adds 5 for streetwise ranks

Martial Grace adds 5 for coordination ranks

Deadly Accuracy adds 5 for brawl ranks

so without cybernetics they can hit for 31 damage that ignores soak for destiny point and 2 strain 26 without spending a DP

This also means they likely have improved precision strike that means that they can choose the option to make another combat check with the same pool, doing 26 dmg (cant use the dp here thought the gm may let you since its a new combat check) so for 6 strain and one destiny point you can land 57 strain damage that ignores soak before adding success. Before you think it takes a lot of xp to get that good , you are quite correct, for a fraction of it you can get to 24 dmg with just gadgeteer/martial artist and maurader and a fraction of the xp albeit not bypassing soak. The gunslinger cannot benefit both his hits with things like deadly accuracy as dual wielding you only get to apply the bonus damage once per combat check, so for this reason autofire is out as well. The improved precision strike talent only works with brawl or melee, so for 2 strain and a crit you can roll a fresh combat check.

Also for force sensitives that have enhance brawl which can add significant damage if your FR is reasonable. Although melee damage is still way down on this brawler can get, he has ..... lethal blows along with vicious and low crit weapons for cheap. Again the marauder gadgeteer can benefit from deadly blocking accuracy and feral strength for a nice +8 to damage so again easy enough to have 17 base dmg on every hit with a cheap vibroaxe(with 6 brawn), and will have a soak of 10+

On 5/17/2017 at 2:39 AM, Xelian said:

At overall you have to invest heavily into an attribute which have little to no outside of combat use in order to be able to do attacks which does less damage while leaving yourself more vulnerable to be attacked.

A couple of things -

* With melee you have more options, damage to wounds or damage to strain. That's pretty important when you're looking to just subdue someone

* Try bringing a blaster pistol or vibrosword into a dinner party. Weapons you'll have to check at the door. Fists can go anywhere.

* More strength means more damage resistance and a bigger encumbrance threshold.

22 minutes ago, Desslok said:

A couple of things -

* With melee you have more options, damage to wounds or damage to strain. That's pretty important when you're looking to just subdue someone

* Try bringing a blaster pistol or vibrosword into a dinner party. Weapons you'll have to check at the door. Fists can go anywhere.

* More strength means more damage resistance and a bigger encumbrance threshold.

Literally 90% of blasters have a stun setting which deals strain damage.

Almost all of the comments here are something like - if you do that and that and after that pick that and that you will be better than the guy who have 3 ranks in Heavy Ranged and bought a rifle. Which just happens to have 200 XP more which he can spend on other things. I guess there are ways to make melee viable after a long play but the cost of doing that seems incomparable. Brawl is nice if you have to infiltrate a party. And bad if you are in spaceship combat. As I mentioned above so far the comments confirm what I think.

For me disengage should be an action not a maneuver. Or at least require a Coordination check. Or dunno... Have the option to use an advantage to force someone not to be able to disengage from you.

5 minutes ago, Xelian said:

Literally 90% of blasters have a stun setting which deals strain damage.

Almost all of the comments here are something like - if you do that and that and after that pick that and that you will be better than the guy who have 3 ranks in Heavy Ranged and bought a rifle. Which just happens to have 200 XP more which he can spend on other things. I guess there are ways to make melee viable after a long play but the cost of doing that seems incomparable. Brawl is nice if you have to infiltrate a party. And bad if you are in spaceship combat. As I mentioned above so far the comments confirm what I think.

For me disengage should be an action not a maneuver. Or at least require a Coordination check. Or dunno... Have the option to use an advantage to force someone not to be able to disengage from you.

Then make a ranged PC and be done with it. You clearly don't agree with other evidence, including first hand accounts from people who have played the very character type you are criticizing, who say it's a perfectly viable and dangerous type. So what's the point in still debating it? If maximum lethality is your only concern, then make a ranged dpser and put holes in things. I fail to see the point of this thread at this point.

14 hours ago, Azmodael said:

Imho, I am fine with that melee should be weaker than ranged in a modern setting. What I am not fine with is that melee doesn't have some of the advantages it should have - notably engaging giving penalties against someone with a longarm weapon. The system also doesn't have a grapple/brawl rules. Being the DM I was actually a bit grateful for that, since grapple is a can of worms, but I did have to invent some simple rule to keep enemies pinned for interrogation/apprehention. Stun first, ask questions later is way easier..

There is both a Pin and Grapple talent.

Afb, but Grapple forces 2 maneuvers on opponents wishing to disengage.

Pin can immobilize the opponent for one or more rounds.

2 hours ago, Reylan Mass said:

Well, that would make sense. One character with rarity 1 weapons that cost 15 creds won't match another with Rarity 8 weapons that cost 1000

But if you upgrade the truncheons to standard Vibroswords...

That would defeat the purpose. The point was (in response to the previous poster re: story) that the player is running his Enforcer character based on story rather than min-maxing.

14 hours ago, Azmodael said:

Say you spend the maneuers required to close the range. You are now engaged with the enemy. There is absolutely nothing preventing that enemy using a Heavy weapon to simple take a maneuer of his own, disengage and shoot you with his Rifle from short range. In a real situation you could hold him by his clothes, wrestle his weapon, go after him and not allow him to take aim and fire etc etc. The system completely fails to represent that - the engagement penalty for Heavy weapons doesn't work, because there is no mechanic in place to keep the enemy engaged. As a DM I decided not to use this loophole against the wookie, because it would make him feel very stupid for actually using his bayonett.

19 minutes ago, Randy G said:

There is both a Pin and Grapple talent.

Afb, but Grapple forces 2 maneuvers on opponents wishing to disengage.

Pin can immobilize the opponent for one or more rounds.

Plain ol Knockdown on any Brawl attack, which could narrated as being all grabby gus and tryignt o hold them. A Minion or Rival could shoot from the ground, stand up and shoot still engaged, or stand up, and move away, but not shoot since they'd need to sacrifice their Action for a Maneuver of movement. Only a Nemesis could get up, move away and shoot, and they're a very advanced opponent. To take on a very advanced opponent you'd need the very advanced Talents mentioned by Randy G. Seems fine to me to need the polish of practical experience represented by Talents with raw Skill to detain an advanced combatant.

Then lest I forget there is always the 'wingclip' use suggested in the 6-2 table for Advantages and Triumphs on combat checks. There are options presented for keeping opponents from running away. Nothing 'wrong' or lacking in the rules.

5 minutes ago, whafrog said:

That would defeat the purpose. The point was (in response to the previous poster re: story) that the player is running his Enforcer character based on story rather than min-maxing.

Out of total curiosity, would you be able to spill a bit of the character's reasons for using plain ol' truncheons? I always like hearing why PCs relegate themselves to non-optimal weaponry.

2 minutes ago, whafrog said:

That would defeat the purpose. The point was (in response to the previous poster re: story) that the player is running his Enforcer character based on story rather than min-maxing.

I must have misunderstood something.

He said (Emphasis bolded):

5 hours ago, whafrog said:

Still most of the comments seems to harden my opinion that that most people play melee because of the story. And to confirm that it require a very heavy investment in order to be on par with ranged.

You responded:

5 hours ago, whafrog said:

In my game, yeah, pretty much true.

And gave an example showing a melee character with among the worst weapons available, compared to a ranged character with some of the best. I assumed you were concurring with the assertion that the only reason to play melee characters was for story reasons as they are too weak compared to ranged from a mechanical POV.

If that was an incorrect conclusion, my mistake.

2 hours ago, Xelian said:

And bad if you are in spaceship combat. As I mentioned above so far the comments confirm what I think.

Things that are also useless in starship combat:

* Politico trees

* Scholar trees

* Hacking trees

* Gambling trees

* Social stuff

* Ground combat stuff

Meanwhile, brawling stuff lets you do cool things like this:

Lets see a blaster tree allow you to beat someone up with their own tie.

7 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Out of total curiosity, would you be able to spill a bit of the character's reasons for using plain ol' truncheons? I always like hearing why PCs relegate themselves to non-optimal weaponry.

Unfortunately I don't have much more than that the player likes the idea of a club-wielding street thug badass. He also has pretty good Charm, and plays him as a "nice with children and small animals" kind of tough guy. When facing opposition he usually gets into a fight reluctantly, resorting to Coercion first (and Fearsome). If they persist, he often says things like "I don't want to kill these idiots, just maim them a little."

7 hours ago, Reylan Mass said:

And gave an example showing a melee character with among the worst weapons available, compared to a ranged character with some of the best. I assumed you were concurring with the assertion that the only reason to play melee characters was for story reasons as they are too weak compared to ranged from a mechanical POV.

I do think it's harder for someone to be useful in melee (Jedi perhaps excepted) because you have to devote more XP resources to be as good. It's much easier to be useful with ranged. Part of the issue is that ranged weapons are useful more often: you always have at least 2 range bands to work with (Engaged and Short), and the difficulty at Short is half as difficult as melee.

So if you want a melee character, and don't want a min-maxed one-trick pony, and you want to add a little flavour, it's very likely you will require story reasons to choose a melee character.

8 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Plain ol Knockdown on any Brawl attack, which could narrated as being all grabby gus and tryignt o hold them. A Minion or Rival could shoot from the ground, stand up and shoot still engaged, or stand up, and move away, but not shoot since they'd need to sacrifice their Action for a Maneuver of movement. Only a Nemesis could get up, move away and shoot, and they're a very advanced opponent. To take on a very advanced opponent you'd need the very advanced Talents mentioned by Randy G. Seems fine to me to need the polish of practical experience represented by Talents with raw Skill to detain an advanced combatant.

Then lest I forget there is always the 'wingclip' use suggested in the 6-2 table for Advantages and Triumphs on combat checks. There are options presented for keeping opponents from running away. Nothing 'wrong' or lacking in the rules.

My issue with Knockdown, especially against minions, is the oportunity cost. Why would you want to knockdown a minion when you can easily use the advantages (or triumph) needed to knockdown to just crit, instantly killing him? The same goes against Nemesis and Rivals, that is if you have stacked enough crit boosting talents, which the majority of people in this thread already advised to do.

What the system needs is a basic array of combat options for free to melee types. The talents should improve on these actions making them better for the people that want to specialize in them.

I would like to see the option of tackling someone for his weapon, grabbing him to prevent escape and other very basic actions available to every human being without going into specific Class X/Specialization Y and spending Z experience down that road.

8 hours ago, Randy G said:

There is both a Pin and Grapple talent.

Afb, but Grapple forces 2 maneuvers on opponents wishing to disengage.

Pin can immobilize the opponent for one or more rounds.

Can you point me to a page/source?

12 hours ago, Azmodael said:

My issue with Knockdown, especially against minions, is the oportunity cost. Why would you want to knockdown a minion when you can easily use the advantages (or triumph) needed to knockdown to just crit, instantly killing him? The same goes against Nemesis and Rivals, that is if you have stacked enough crit boosting talents, which the majority of people in this thread already advised to do.

What the system needs is a basic array of combat options for free to melee types. The talents should improve on these actions making them better for the people that want to specialize in them.

I would like to see the option of tackling someone for his weapon, grabbing him to prevent escape and other very basic actions available to every human being without going into specific Class X/Specialization Y and spending Z experience down that road.

Why you'd use Knockdown as opposed to landing a crit and/or killing?

Because you didn't cause any wounds through the target's Soak but can still activate Knockdown with a successful roll.

Because you want to capture the target.

Because you're on a mission for the rebellion and you've been invited to fight the king's son in an honor match.

Because you're a Force character that has forsworn from killing.

Because you're trying to push past a bunch of brain washed civies to get to the Sith baddie and don't want to kill them.

That's off the top of my head sipping coffee. In a RPG there are a lot of reasons you might not go straight to punching people in their throats every roll.

In regards to grabbing, stopping, disarming, you really really really need to go read chart 6-2 and the proceeding section #4 in performing a combat check again, or maybe the first time, I don't know, but everything you're ******* isn't in the rules is right there.

8 hours ago, Azmodael said:

My issue with Knockdown, especially against minions, is the oportunity cost. Why would you want to knockdown a minion when you can easily use the advantages (or triumph) needed to knockdown to just crit, instantly killing him? The same goes against Nemesis and Rivals, that is if you have stacked enough crit boosting talents, which the majority of people in this thread already advised to do.

At least for Brawlers, combat is all about controlling the battlefield and action denial.

When playing my Besalisk Warden/Marauder I use knockdown all the time. Likely because I have both Precision Strike, Grapple, No Escape and a concussive weapon. Depending on the enemy, a timely knockdown can be the difference from completely locking down an enemy or letting them run around and corner and regroup.

Rnd 1

ME: Grapple + Knockdown + Concussive 2 trigger - NPC 1

NPC 1: Stands up (no action or 2nd maneuver)

Rnd 2

ME: Knockdown + Concussive 2 trigger - NPC 2 + Grapple NPC 1

NPC 1: Disengages, stays at short

NPC 2: Stands up (no action or 2nd maneuver)

Etc.

Mix in things like Disarming and Sunder and your enemies options get real slim real quickly. Grapple, knockdown, disarm puts them in a hard spot. Do they pick up their weapon and fight from their back or do they stand up and fight bare handed?

Why not crit him with those advantage you ask? Well because it cost 4 adv. with my gauntlets for one, plus sometimes a random effect isn't as good as a known quantity. We've all been in this situation. You're fighting some epic enemy, you roll just enough advantage to crit but you have other cool effects you could trigger too. You go with crit and roll. <tuba noise> gruesome injury to Presence. Great, now you've just pissed him off.

As for others discussing brawler damage. 7 Brawn (Enhance plus cyber), Cortosis Gauntlets with Weighted Head attachment modded plus some Feral Str (or whatever that damage boosting marauder talent is) means his base damage is 11 + successes on a YYYGGGG dice pool. Granted this is a 400-ish xp character but even at lower xp he was plenty competitive with the ranged combat characters.

As I've said in previous posts, the main disadvantage is he is a two trick pony. He is a beast in combat and he is excellent at Coercion, but not too much else. If I had employed a similar level of optimisation to a Ranged attack character I might be able to do a little more damage but the biggest difference would be that I would have 50 or so more xp to round out tertiary skills. Does that mean that brawlers are less viable, ohh heck no. It just means that you might have to build them a little more focused then you would an agility based build.

I don't know what the "melee needs control" crowd wants. IRL, if I'm facing down someone with a melee weapon, I can literally just run away and they'll have to chase me. There is nothing keeping me in that fight. As for brawling, if you're punching someone on your turn then you're focusing on dealing damage, not keeping the target from escaping. To keep them from escaping sounds more like an opposed Athletics check. The specific results of such a check might vary, but I'd say the minimum would be the target can't take the disengage maneuver (but they could use their action next turn to do some kind of check to escape). It might be a perception issue; the Brawl skill is about how well you can punch someone out, not about how well you can keep them contained or how well you can wrestle.

Some specific things:

Knockdown vs Crit on minions: Remember you attack the group, if you crit then one dies, if you knockdown then the group is knocked down (barring GM intervention).

Knockdown vs crit on non-minions: Any other reason to deny someone their maneuver (some regard crits vs non-minions to be a waste of time since it doesn't get them any closer to being over their wound threshold).

Going for a weapon: Take your pick between 3 advantage on a combat check, a called shot on a combat check, an opposed athletics check to wrestle it out.

Grabbing to prevent escape: as above, sounds like an athletics check since the point of the action is to prevent escape (success = can take the disengage maneuver) but a pair of triumphs would probably do the trick also.

Talents: Pin is in enter the unknown, grapple is in keeping the peace or no disintegrations; obviously any houserule shouldn't exceed these capabilities.

23 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Why you'd use Knockdown as opposed to landing a crit and/or killing?

Because you didn't cause any wounds through the target's Soak but can still activate Knockdown with a successful roll.

Because you want to capture the target.

Because you're on a mission for the rebellion and you've been invited to fight the king's son in an honor match.

Because you're a Force character that has forsworn from killing.

Because you're trying to push past a bunch of brain washed civies to get to the Sith baddie and don't want to kill them.

That's off the top of my head sipping coffee. In a RPG there are a lot of reason you might not go straight to punching people in their throats every roll.

In regards to grabbing, stopping, disarming, you really really really need to go read chart 6-2 and the proceeding section #4 in performing a combat check again, or maybe the first time, I don't know, but everything you're ******* isn't in the rules is right there.

Because you're a brawler and your crit costs 5

Because you want to knock them off the edge of the building you're fighting on

Because he's trying to disengage with you to use his gunnery weapon

Because knocking him down will have a useful effect and a crit always has the chance of being something trivial

Because he has also been ensnared

Because you have friendly engaged players turns coming up

3 minutes ago, Hinklemar said:

I don't know what the "melee needs control" crowd wants. IRL, if I'm facing down someone with a melee weapon, I can literally just run away and they'll have to chase me. There is nothing keeping me in that fight. As for brawling, if you're punching someone on your turn then you're focusing on dealing damage, not keeping the target from escaping. To keep them from escaping sounds more like an opposed Athletics check. The specific results of such a check might vary, but I'd say the minimum would be the target can't take the disengage maneuver (but they could use their action next turn to do some kind of check to escape). It might be a perception issue; the Brawl skill is about how well you can punch someone out, not about how well you can keep them contained or how well you can wrestle.

Some specific things:

Knockdown vs Crit on minions: Remember you attack the group, if you crit then one dies, if you knockdown then the group is knocked down (barring GM intervention).

Knockdown vs crit on non-minions: Any other reason to deny someone their maneuver (some regard crits vs non-minions to be a waste of time since it doesn't get them any closer to being over their wound threshold).

Going for a weapon: Take your pick between 3 advantage on a combat check, a called shot on a combat check, an opposed athletics check to wrestle it out.

Grabbing to prevent escape: as above, sounds like an athletics check since the point of the action is to prevent escape (success = can take the disengage maneuver) but a pair of triumphs would probably do the trick also.

Talents: Pin is in enter the unknown, grapple is in keeping the peace or no disintegrations; obviously any houserule shouldn't exceed these capabilities.

Grapple is a Warden talent that makes them spend 2 maneuvers to disengage. Knocking them down means they don't have the maneuvers to disengage even if they have a ST.

While playtesting No Disintegrations, my daughter played a Martial Artist. She had no issues with being combat capable, and was also non-combat capable. (Her choice to be a gungan, and worse, related to THAT gungan, however...)

Both the Marauder and Martial Artist are focused on melee, and yes, that hampers their ranged combat a small bit... far less so than, say, being a Smuggler-trader.

Something not mentioned yet is that Melee can be pretty whiffy for starting characters, but Knight-Level, a melee character is a death machine. The combination of high pools, always rolling at difficulty 2 or 3 (Two weapons), and relative scarcity of melee defense make it pretty potent. Unless your target is high (6+) soak.

ALso, don't forget: Firing into a melee is upgrade difficulty once (Purple to Red)... That may not sound like much, but... each red has that chance of despair (and hitting an ally), and is -3/4 instead of -1/2 on the success chance. Charging to melee has the advantage of tying up one or more opponents and making them not only not shoot out, but also making anyone engaged less likely to be shot, for fear of hitting allies. Against mooks, this can really make for some fun "holding off the badguys" situations.

Had a fight in a session two weeks where two stormtroopers (a single minion group) were fighting a wookie doctor. Neither side was breaking the other's soak 5... but the other PC's, thanks to aims, were shooting in successfully for low damage... until the wookie rolled a pair of crits. "Smashing their heads together."

Knockdown's great - remembering that the action economy makes minions and rivals far less capable than PC's and Nemesis. Not only do they now give +2 Blue on your allies' attacks, they either don't attack or don't escape. Either way, it means they don't aim.

Bottom line? They're useful, especially in situations where carrying, let alone using, a blaster may be suboptimal...

How to make m elee viable.

1. Choose a species with a Brawn of 3 and a Willpower 2

2. Raise Brawn 4 and Willpower 3

4. Choose Hired Gun/Maraduer

5. Spend extra XP on Skills and/or talents - doesn't really matter you are going to be broken either way.

6. Buy a force pike

7. if you have extra cash buy heavy clothing, soak should be 5

8. Profit

2 hours ago, unicornpuncher said:

How to make m elee viable.

1. Choose a species with a Brawn of 3 and a Willpower 2

2. Raise Brawn 4 and Willpower 3

4. Choose Hired Gun/Maraduer

5. Spend extra XP on Skills and/or talents - doesn't really matter you are going to be broken either way.

6. Buy a force pike

7. if you have extra cash buy heavy clothing, soak should be 5

8. Profit

Or play a Jedi .

3 hours ago, unicornpuncher said:

How to make m elee viable.

1. Choose a species with a Brawn of 3 and a Willpower 2

2. Raise Brawn 4 and Willpower 3

4. Choose Hired Gun/Maraduer

5. Spend extra XP on Skills and/or talents - doesn't really matter you are going to be broken either way.

6. Buy a force pike

7. if you have extra cash buy heavy clothing, soak should be 5

8. Profit

you could choose a race with 3 willpower and 2 brawn and raise brawn twice. Another interesting technique that can be done with certain specs if you have a straight line to dedication is start with a 3 in either, boost the other to 3 (30 xp) then spend 75 xp doing the straight run to dedication to boost brawn to 4. Often leaving 5 for something else.

Yes, as people have stated, Melee/Brawl/etc. is viable, but weird. The big problem seems to be that Ranged combat is very "plug and play" - you pick up a gun, you take cover, you shoot people, and it works - while Melee requires some thought and some investment to be good. The thing about it, though, is that, once you put the investment in, you aren't just "on par" with Ranged, you're likely much better . Melee and Brawl can be scary beasts. We aren't even going to talk about Lightsabers.

Even without "investment", though, Melee characters can be scary. Brawl characters have a harder time of it, unless they pick up Vibroknucklers. I hate those weapons and, as a martial artist in real life who tends to prefer more martial arts type flair with my Brawl checks, I avoid them in favor of things like Shock Gauntlets. Shame. Your basic Viborknife, though, is a beast of a thing. Any amount of Pierce is effectively extra damage, unless you're somehow fighting someone without Soak - especially in the realm of Pierce 2-3. Pierce 5, which some weapons have, isn't always all that - it's useless against a Soak 3 baddie - but when your GM throws Stormtroopers at you, you'll appreciate it. Vicious and the low crit rating of Vibroknives play heavily into the efficacy of Melee builds. Brawl gets Knockdown and Disorient, which are always useful, though less flashy. Both builds have options right out of the gate, though, along with the advantages already listed: you can't run out of ammo, you can bring your weapons almost anywhere (they're easier to hide and, in the case of your fists, impossible to remove from you), they're quieter.

Your big problem seems to be: but people can step back and shoot me! It's the thing that's been repeated again and again in this thread. You aren't wrong, of course: a Maneuver to step back and they're shooting against an Easy pool to hit you. Armor with Defense helps this a bit, and your high Soak and WT means you can take punishment, but it isn't fun being hit that easily. Then you have to go to all the effort to re-engage... so don't. There are talents that make that practically impossible. But those are far down into the tree! Yes. They aren't your only recourse, though.

Make your first attacks against the enemy's weapon. Called shots are hard to make, I guess, but the rules on them are sort of vague, and you can use that to your advantage. Maybe a successful roll means your target drops their weapon. Now they can't back up and shoot you. Maybe it damages the weapon, like Sunder or something. Just destroy it! Your opponent can't shoot you if you have a gun. When have you ever watched a movie with a martial artist/guy who beats things with their fist and/or a stick where they didn't either drop the person in one hit or go for the gun? As a starting character, you probably can't drop people in one hit. (Unless, you know, you have a vibro-axe. Then maybe!) Follow the on-screen example, then, and go for the gun. You can also accomplish almost all of this with the Advantage table. Yes, some of those results rely on you Succeeding with Advantage (or, at least, a Triumph), but they can completely end the "ranged" fight, leaving you the undisputed king of the engagement.

But I want grappling rules, you say! They're in there. They're called Knockdown and Disorient. RTFM. Flavor Knockdown as wrestling for the weapon. Do what you want. It's in the system. Yes, it's harder to prevent the enemy running away from you, but: 1) You can, and if they fail in any way, attacking from Engaged is bad . It's harder, and it gives you Boosts to hit them. Adding Boosts are secretly one of the best things in this system (when they don't screw you over and roll blanks! ). 2) If they run away from you, they can't Aim or do anything else. That's generally less damage output, and they can't take or be in cover, meaning they're easier to hit for your allies. It's a big trade off. 3) If you play a ranged character, your enemy can very easily run up to Short range of you, take heavy cover, and then just Aim at you every round. Of course, you'd be rolling back at them with an Easy pool as well, but against two Setbacks and the damage you're trading back and forth is absurd, so don't try to pretend it's any safer for ranged combatants to play simply.

Martial Artist can get to Grapple in 45 XP, by the way. I don't know how other GMs play, but between +30 starting XP I usually give out (for rounded character concepts), you can get that at chargen or after the first session.

24 minutes ago, Kestin said:

Yes, as people have stated, Melee/Brawl/etc. is viable, but weird. The big problem seems to be that Ranged combat is very "plug and play" - you pick up a gun, you take cover, you shoot people, and it works - while Melee requires some thought and some investment to be good. The thing about it, though, is that, once you put the investment in, you aren't just "on par" with Ranged, you're likely much better . Melee and Brawl can be scary beasts. We aren't even going to talk about Lightsabers.

Even without "investment", though, Melee characters can be scary. Brawl characters have a harder time of it, unless they pick up Vibroknucklers. I hate those weapons and, as a martial artist in real life who tends to prefer more martial arts type flair with my Brawl checks, I avoid them in favor of things like Shock Gauntlets. Shame. Your basic Viborknife, though, is a beast of a thing. Any amount of Pierce is effectively extra damage, unless you're somehow fighting someone without Soak - especially in the realm of Pierce 2-3. Pierce 5, which some weapons have, isn't always all that - it's useless against a Soak 3 baddie - but when your GM throws Stormtroopers at you, you'll appreciate it. Vicious and the low crit rating of Vibroknives play heavily into the efficacy of Melee builds. Brawl gets Knockdown and Disorient, which are always useful, though less flashy. Both builds have options right out of the gate, though, along with the advantages already listed: you can't run out of ammo, you can bring your weapons almost anywhere (they're easier to hide and, in the case of your fists, impossible to remove from you), they're quieter.

Your big problem seems to be: but people can step back and shoot me! It's the thing that's been repeated again and again in this thread. You aren't wrong, of course: a Maneuver to step back and they're shooting against an Easy pool to hit you. Armor with Defense helps this a bit, and your high Soak and WT means you can take punishment, but it isn't fun being hit that easily. Then you have to go to all the effort to re-engage... so don't. There are talents that make that practically impossible. But those are far down into the tree! Yes. They aren't your only recourse, though.

Make your first attacks against the enemy's weapon. Called shots are hard to make, I guess, but the rules on them are sort of vague, and you can use that to your advantage. Maybe a successful roll means your target drops their weapon. Now they can't back up and shoot you. Maybe it damages the weapon, like Sunder or something. Just destroy it! Your opponent can't shoot you if you have a gun. When have you ever watched a movie with a martial artist/guy who beats things with their fist and/or a stick where they didn't either drop the person in one hit or go for the gun? As a starting character, you probably can't drop people in one hit. (Unless, you know, you have a vibro-axe. Then maybe!) Follow the on-screen example, then, and go for the gun. You can also accomplish almost all of this with the Advantage table. Yes, some of those results rely on you Succeeding with Advantage (or, at least, a Triumph), but they can completely end the "ranged" fight, leaving you the undisputed king of the engagement.

But I want grappling rules, you say! They're in there. They're called Knockdown and Disorient. RTFM. Flavor Knockdown as wrestling for the weapon. Do what you want. It's in the system. Yes, it's harder to prevent the enemy running away from you, but: 1) You can, and if they fail in any way, attacking from Engaged is bad . It's harder, and it gives you Boosts to hit them. Adding Boosts are secretly one of the best things in this system (when they don't screw you over and roll blanks! ). 2) If they run away from you, they can't Aim or do anything else. That's generally less damage output, and they can't take or be in cover, meaning they're easier to hit for your allies. It's a big trade off. 3) If you play a ranged character, your enemy can very easily run up to Short range of you, take heavy cover, and then just Aim at you every round. Of course, you'd be rolling back at them with an Easy pool as well, but against two Setbacks and the damage you're trading back and forth is absurd, so don't try to pretend it's any safer for ranged combatants to play simply.

Martial Artist can get to Grapple in 45 XP, by the way. I don't know how other GMs play, but between +30 starting XP I usually give out (for rounded character concepts), you can get that at chargen or after the first session.

Yes and 30 xp into the Marauder tree gets you a couple of ranks of frenzied attack and feral strength for two upgrades and +2 dmg.

4 hours ago, Kestin said:

Make your first attacks against the enemy's weapon. Called shots are hard to make, I guess, but the rules on them are sort of vague, and you can use that to your advantage. Maybe a successful roll means your target drops their weapon. Now they can't back up and shoot you. Maybe it damages the weapon, like Sunder or something. Just destroy it! Your opponent can't shoot you if you have a gun. When have you ever watched a movie with a martial artist/guy who beats things with their fist and/or a stick where they didn't either drop the person in one hit or go for the gun? As a starting character, you probably can't drop people in one hit. (Unless, you know, you have a vibro-axe. Then maybe!) Follow the on-screen example, then, and go for the gun. You can also accomplish almost all of this with the Advantage table. Yes, some of those results rely on you Succeeding with Advantage (or, at least, a Triumph), but they can completely end the "ranged" fight, leaving you the undisputed king of the engagement.

Called shots are pretty straightforward. You have to aim. If you single-aim, as when first entering melee (because you moved in), they add two black (p. 201).

The effect of Hitting a weapon is fuzzy - it probably should do a damage step (p. 159). You need three advantage to make them drop it. (p. 206) If the attack is only against the weapon, I'd allow 3 success, instead, to disarm, and/or to do an additional damage level to it. Of course, a Triumph gets a damage step...

But you're better off simply attacking them and hoping for the advantage. Still, aim. (Aim is NOT restricted to ranged weapons.)

Note that damage steps aren't too nasty... for the first two. First one adds a black. Second changes it to a purple. Third takes it out of action.