Vader definitely takes some flying to get the best out of, I found, but you can't really get a tougher ship for the same low price. Lone Wolf or Intensity are both decent options to Juke and he still comes in 32/33pts (I like TIE MkII Engine on him to power out of k-turns). Christ, just spending 30pts for Darth Vader with ASTS and ATC is a hammeringly solid ship for the cost.

Like I said originally he has a weakness - offense - but toughness is NOT it.

6 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Vader definitely takes some flying to get the best out of, I found, but you can't really get a tougher ship for the same low price. Lone Wolf or Intensity are both decent options to Juke and he still comes in 32/33pts (I like TIE MkII Engine on him to power out of k-turns). Christ, just spending 30pts for Darth Vader with ASTS and ATC is a hammeringly solid ship for the cost.

Like I said originally he has a weakness - offense - but toughness is NOT it.

*Shrug* My experiences flying with and against Vader have shown me he melts quickly. Too many things in the meta feel like direct counters. Against a similarly powered ship? Yeah, he'll hang around forever. Against Dengar? Better not ever shoot him in arc. Against ordinance? Christ, I hope your dice roll well!

Against a swarm? Ehhh. Better try arc dodging again, but dice may be nice to you. Against TLTs? See ya, Daddy-o.

Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of really evaluating ships in a vacuum. He's an older model, from halcyon days (well, post-fix, anyways), and his version of defense is something the game has been steadily overcoming wave after wave. Mostly, that's Soontir's fault, but Vader doesn't even have Soontir's ATs to back him up.

Vader gets one confirmed evade with his token. You can math out how often he actually blanks out, I'm sure the number isn't THAT high... But it only has to happen once a match. And he drives just like a tank... Which is to say, not well. Dice variance kills this guy. Which is a hard thing to rely on in a tournament.

And his usefulness shouldn't be as a tank, because X-Wing isn't about how many ships you can keep on the board, anyway. That's still a decent chunk of points that isn't killing a whole lot.

Hells, grab Countdown if you want a real "tank."

I'm guessing SOTL is using Vader as a flanker, where he doesn't have to turn around (that much), just go after whatever it is that he's flanking.

Of course when he HAS to turn around, his survivability drops like a brick. He's no defender after a koio, he's sitting there praying his naked green dice save him.

Edit: Got ninja'd a bit by both of you

I was thinking of replacing Backdraft with Vader in QD/Backdraft/Soontir list, but I'm afraid that his one arc and trying to avoid koio turning will limit his usefulness a lot. On the other hand, he's much more tanky than BD if he can token up.

Countdown's not a tank, he's a ticking clock. Vader is a tank, he just absorbs red dice and spits them back out.

Better not Dengar in arc? Well that's true for everything isn't it, but TBH Vader's got the best chance of anyone against Dengar as he's got 3 green dice with Focus & Evade.

Swarms and TLTs aren't really relevant in todays meta. Ok, TLTs are relevant on the Ghost but you can hug the ghost's R1 pretty easily if you need to. I've battered every Ghost I've played with Vader, thanks to all the crits he deals out.

I've played Vader as a tank, and tanky he was. I even wrote a blog about how surprisingly good he was. Have you tried him or are you just theorycrafting?

5 minutes ago, Rojek said:

I'm guessing SOTL is using Vader as a flanker, where he doesn't have to turn around (that much), just go after whatever it is that he's flanking.

Of course when he HAS to turn around, his survivability drops like a brick. He's no defender after a koio, he's sitting there praying his naked green dice save him.

You try and bring him in from the flank originally, yes. It helps him have that first turn where he can TL/Evade away from the worst of it and not get burned, and that he can then follow the fight as he closes in from the flank helps to avoid the weakness of not having a hard 1 turn.

You k-turn him when he's safe, or when you judge other targets are going to be more tempting for the opponent and you'd actually quite like the opponent to get distracted by trying to snipe Vader without his tokens. He's a patient killer.

54 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I've played Vader as a tank, and tanky he was. I even wrote a blog about how surprisingly good he was. Have you tried him or are you just theorycrafting?

Extensive testing in a highly competitive meta.

Seeing some of the other lists you've had success with, I suspect that may be the issue.

That, or you have an absurdly positive relationship with green dice.

Honestly, every time you talk about lists you fly and fly against, it seems you've always encountered perfect scenarios and not struggled one wit. It makes it sound like you're either Paul Heaver level or flying against a bunch of mooks... Or constantly being at least a bit hyperbolic.

2 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Honestly, every time you talk about lists you fly and fly against, it seems you've always encountered perfect scenarios and not struggled one wit. It makes it sound like you're either Paul Heaver level or flying against a bunch of mooks...

Well now I'm now sure what to try...

TIE/sf Fighter: · "Quickdraw" (29)
Adaptability (Increase) (0)
Fire Control System (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

TIE/sf Fighter: · "Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire Control System (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

And

TIE Avanced Prototype: · The Inquisitor (25)
Push The Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)

Or

TIE Advanced: · Darth Vader (29)
· A score to settle (0)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x1 (0)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

For 100 points.

Well, you know what The Inquisitor does and you don't know what that Vader does...

Pros/Cons between the two: Inquisitor better vs turrets because of Autothrusters and has boost, Vader is better vs stress dealers and is a bit tougher with better overall jousting efficiency (ASTS & ATC on offense, Focus and Evade on defense while Inquistor has TL on offence, Focus & Evade on defense). Vader also ships a ton of crits.

Oh I know what they both do, I've flown them a bunch in the past. I just struggled to keep them alive because of aforementioned need to fly them differently from a lot of other ships! Certainly will be trying both post tournament next weekend.

I feel like we've moved away from the stricy "Double TIE/SF" of this thread, but anyway...

• Quickdraw - Draw Their Fire, Fire Control System, Pattern Analyser, Special Ops Training, Lightweight Frame (36)
• Colonel Vessery - A Score To Settle, Ion Cannon, TIE/D (38)
• Deathfire - Cruise Missiles, Cluster Mines, Extra Munitions, Long Range Scanners (26)

First game with that last night, I won 100-0 before the second combat phase! I was playing against QD/Vader/OL. Our Quickdraws double-tapped each other at R1, mine survived with 1 Hull while his died. Vader ate two fully modified shots from Vessery and 4 dice of Cruise Missile from Deathfire, then next turn I dropped 6 dice of Cluster Mines on Omega Leader and he blew up.

I doubt it's going to go that well in every game, though...

To bring it back on topic, my second SF should eventually be arriving from MiniatureMarket, so I do have some double SF lists I'm planning to test.

You can flavor a bit more - Adaptability up QD and you can bring a couple Cruise Missiles or some Tech slots. Could get rid of the point bid for Primed Thrusters or PA (which, I tend to want on Backdraft, just in case I get cute with a 3 sloop for a surprise rear arc shot). Palp and LWF is a pretty nice interaction, and you can always use him if you have the opportunity to guarantee a kill.

(I did use Palp w/ Kestal last night, called a crit, rolled two natural crits, I hate this, give my my old Palp back)

Similar but very different:

• Starkiller Base Pilot - Electronic Baffle, Weapon Guidance, Recon Specialist (36)
• Quickdraw - Rage, Electronic Baffle, Special Ops Training, TIE MkII Engine (32)
• Backdraft - Veteran Instincts, Fire Control System, Special Ops Training, Lightweight Frame (32)

When you were all telling me Ragedraw was rubbish I made this. Very aggressive shuttle and QD builds. Shuttle can co-ordinate QD to Rage then TIE MkII gives him decent range of greens later in the turn. Shuttle's RecSpec/Guidance combo hits as hard as FCS but on each attack and Baffle allows it to utilise the reds if it has to while still modding dice or co-ordinating.

What are people's thoughts on raging baffle QuickDraw

ive always thought it was too much of a gimmick and that there's no point in forcing the shield loss

but after months of play I'm having a rethink

7 hours ago, Iksentrik said:

What are people's thoughts on raging baffle QuickDraw

ive always thought it was too much of a gimmick and that there's no point in forcing the shield loss

but after months of play I'm having a rethink

I haven't played RageDraw outside casual, but I have played his other builds - I think the Rage build could have sense only if you have a higher priority target in your list or if you only expect him to survive one turn (which is a wierd supposition). Otherwise, you still get full mods eventually with FCS + a focus, and you don't have to damage yourself to do so A focused-down QD can have trouble staying alive even without hurting himself.

Like I said, i've been playing a QD+Backdraft+Soontir list for some time, but I've mostly been moving last even with an all PS-9 squad with 1 point of initiative bid. Wonky, I know, but that's the local meta at this point. This made me think about going all-in on moving last with this list:

What's everyone's take on this? I'm limiting Vader's and QD's mods a bit, but Vader has his action economy and QD has FCS, and at least I can move after all the Dengars, Fenns, VI Reys etc. of this world. And Vessery doesn't care as much, all he wants to do is koio all day anyway, plus he's a prospective blocker in a pinch. The other idea is to scrap just Fel for Vessery, as Fel handles flying first worse than the Tie/SF's, but I'm afraid i'll play 3 out of four matches vs PS 9/10 again and get frustrated

Any good videos of double sf lists online?

I played two games on stream during the Australian Open, with my double SF/ Bomber list. The link to the first game is below...the second game has not been put on YouTube yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i35YcpoKL8&feature=share

Im going to try this one out next week

Backdraft, Vi , Fcs , Titel , Primed thrusters , Lwf

Quickdraw , Asts , FCS, Titel, Pattern Analzyer , LWF

Tomax Breen, Crackshot, LWF , Tie Shuttel, Kylo ren, Insp Recuit.

99 Points

We shall see how this turns out!

Lieutenant Kestal (22) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0)

"Quickdraw" (29) w/ Crackshot (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Targeting Synchronizer (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

This is a brutal ps9 alpha list. Target Synch doesnt really require init bid, but can be nice for b-rolling from Fenn Rau's. Was 2-1 in SC before I had to drop. I wiped Fenn Rau in one round in game 1 vs a Parattanni variant.

Game 2 was Fenn and two linked scurrgs. I got BD and Kestal 4 dice cruise on 1 scurrg. They took QD down to one hull first round, second round I finished 1 scurrg with QD. Went a couple rounds. Got the other scurrg with a hard 1 near board edge. Was confident I could 2 turn next round, but BD was off by a millimeter. So full health BD eats it. Then its Kestal vs Fenn. And he runs and wins on points 31-29. Amazing what Kestal does to Fenn Rau players. They do NOT like her ability, lol.

Third game was Torp Boats, but one was a Scurrg with cruise and LRS. I drop one jumpmaster before it could fire. Dropped the scurrg two rounds later with a cruise from kestal and range 1 BD. Quickdraw finally got his cruise missile off and finished the third jump. Win 100-29.

Knowing what I know now, I want Kestal with ABT. Dropping 1 Cruise gives me a 1pt bid as well. Might even drop crack from QD for adapt or trickshot (6 dice cruise!).

Cruise missiles are awesome. It makes people come range 1 of you. Insane. Okay, I will take a 4 dice primary then, setup FCS, and sloop and cruise you next round. SFs with the 3 sloops and cruise are "oh so nice!". NOTE: I never used Kestals ability in the games, BUT I played two Fenn Raus and they wanted nothing to do with her and in the second game Fenn did nothing but run away. Seriously, he didnt do a single damage just flying far away from Kestal, he only took a range 3 shot on BD that was dodged. I just flew BD off the board, lol. Dumb me!

2 hours ago, wurms said:

Lieutenant Kestal (22) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0)

"Quickdraw" (29) w/ Crackshot (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Targeting Synchronizer (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

This is a brutal ps9 alpha list. Target Synch doesnt really require init bid, but can be nice for b-rolling from Fenn Rau's. Was 2-1 in SC before I had to drop. I wiped Fenn Rau in one round in game 1 vs a Parattanni variant.

Game 2 was Fenn and two linked scurrgs. I got BD and Kestal 4 dice cruise on 1 scurrg. They took QD down to one hull first round, second round I finished 1 scurrg with QD. Went a couple rounds. Got the other scurrg with a hard 1 near board edge. Was confident I could 2 turn next round, but BD was off by a millimeter. So full health BD eats it. Then its Kestal vs Fenn. And he runs and wins on points 31-29. Amazing what Kestal does to Fenn Rau players. They do NOT like her ability, lol.

Third game was Torp Boats, but one was a Scurrg with cruise and LRS. I drop one jumpmaster before it could fire. Dropped the scurrg two rounds later with a cruise from kestal and range 1 BD. Quickdraw finally got his cruise missile off and finished the third jump. Win 100-29.

Knowing what I know now, I want Kestal with ABT. Dropping 1 Cruise gives me a 1pt bid as well. Might even drop crack from QD for adapt or trickshot (6 dice cruise!).

Cruise missiles are awesome. It makes people come range 1 of you. Insane. Okay, I will take a 4 dice primary then, setup FCS, and sloop and cruise you next round. SFs with the 3 sloops and cruise are "oh so nice!". NOTE: I never used Kestals ability in the games, BUT I played two Fenn Raus and they wanted nothing to do with her and in the second game Fenn did nothing but run away. Seriously, he didnt do a single damage just flying far away from Kestal, he only took a range 3 shot on BD that was dodged. I just flew BD off the board, lol. Dumb me!

I tried Kestal with a Dorsal Turret and was a fan of the consistency, though it's pretty obvious that Cruise Missiles chasing folks into ABT is a solid combo... Kestal is just pretty easy to get around once she's lost that Cruise Missile. Dorsal is still somewhat punishing in range 1 situations... Dunno, I'm not sold, though do enjoy the PS 9 Cruise Missile Alpha Strike, it is something I've got ready in my queue of lists-to-test, and have tried it with other ships while waiting for my second SF.

On 7/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, Rojek said:

“Quickdraw” + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control System + Special Ops Training + Lightweight Frame (34)

Darth Vader + TIE/x1 + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Targeting Computer (31)

Colonel Vessery + Juke + TIE/x7 (35)

Vader without Engine Upgrade is a real pain to keep in the fight, and won't be avoiding the arcs he needs (meaning his PS 11 is a bit wasted, at that point).

On 7/16/2017 at 1:28 PM, IgotTargetlocked said:

Im going to try this one out next week

Backdraft, Vi , Fcs , Titel , Primed thrusters , Lwf

Quickdraw , Asts , FCS, Titel, Pattern Analzyer , LWF

Tomax Breen, Crackshot, LWF , Tie Shuttel, Kylo ren, Insp Recuit.

99 Points

We shall see how this turns out!

I tried it and I did not like it...

See

14 hours ago, wurms said:

Lieutenant Kestal (22) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0)

"Quickdraw" (29) w/ Crackshot (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Targeting Synchronizer (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Cruise Missiles (3) , Guidance Chips (0) , Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

This is a brutal ps9 alpha list. Target Synch doesnt really require init bid, but can be nice for b-rolling from Fenn Rau 's. Was 2-1 in SC before I had to drop. I wiped Fenn Rau in one round in game 1 vs a Parattanni variant.

Game 2 was Fenn and two linked scurrgs. I got BD and Kestal 4 dice cruise on 1 scurrg. They took QD down to one hull first round, second round I finished 1 scurrg with QD. Went a couple rounds. Got the other scurrg with a hard 1 near board edge. Was confident I could 2 turn next round, but BD was off by a millimeter. So full health BD eats it. Then its Kestal vs Fenn . And he runs and wins on points 31-29. Amazing what Kestal does to Fenn Rau players. They do NOT like her ability, lol.

Third game was Torp Boats, but one was a Scurrg with cruise and LRS . I drop one jumpmaster before it could fire. Dropped the scurrg two rounds later with a cruise from kestal and range 1 BD. Quickdraw finally got his cruise missile off and finished the third jump. Win 100-29.

Knowing what I know now, I want Kestal with ABT . Dropping 1 Cruise gives me a 1pt bid as well. Might even drop crack from QD for adapt or trickshot (6 dice cruise!).

Cruise missiles are awesome. It makes people come range 1 of you. Insane. Okay, I will take a 4 dice primary then, setup FCS , and sloop and cruise you next round. SFs with the 3 sloops and cruise are "oh so nice!". NOTE: I never used Kestals ability in the games, BUT I played two Fenn Rau s and they wanted nothing to do with her and in the second game Fenn did nothing but run away. Seriously, he didnt do a single damage just flying far away from Kestal, he only took a range 3 shot on BD that was dodged. I just flew BD off the board, lol. Dumb me!

Adaptability on quickdraw and drop a missile to add synched turret on ketsal? Targeting synchronizer can give you the tl to use it, freeing up a focus for mods or ketsal's ability.

12 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Vader without Engine Upgrade is a real pain to keep in the fight, and won't be avoiding the arcs he needs (meaning his PS 11 is a bit wasted, at that point).

Well, that's true to a point - Vader would love to have EU in order to go full ace-mode. But that would mean dropping Vessery down to something else (Inquisitor?) and I really wanted Vessery's resilience.

Anyway, the PS 11 worked for me, earning me a Store Championship win. 5/7 rounds I played vs. P9/10 ships (3 times a Decimator, once coupled with a Quickdraw, once with Whisper and Rey VI + Jan VI). Even without strong repositioning myself (both QD and Vader having only Barrel Roll), the PS 11 was a total game-changer.

Thanks for your input, guys, especially to SOTL, whose blog led to me using 2 Tie/SFs, which in turn led to this list to counter the insane PS meta.

6 minutes ago, Rojek said:

Well, that's true to a point - Vader would love to have EU in order to go full ace-mode. But that would mean dropping Vessery down to something else (Inquisitor?) and I really wanted Vessery's resilience.

Anyway, the PS 11 worked for me, earning me a Store Championship win. 5/7 rounds I played vs. P9/10 ships (3 times a Decimator, once coupled with a Quickdraw, once with Whisper and Rey VI + Jan VI). Even without strong repositioning myself (both QD and Vader having only Barrel Roll), the PS 11 was a total game-changer.

Thanks for your input, guys, especially to SOTL, whose blog led to me using 2 Tie/SFs, which in turn led to this list to counter the insane PS meta.

Glad it worked for you! The Decimators must have been especially upset to see Vader at PS11 (he can't exactly dodge their arcs anyway, so he's really a great answer, especially due to ATC making them earn the "crit magnet" nickname).

Congrats on the win!!

I have a tkurnam next weekend. I've it been able to play for about a month and will get to practice one day this week. I think I might be silly and try Juking SF's. If I can get hold of 2 cruise missiles I might try the below. I like the thought of flying fast to potentially throw 5 dice as an Alpha. If I misjudge and get to range 1 that's still 4 dice I'm throwing, and then I'll sloop and throw 4 more with a TL (thanks to FCS) and a focus (thanks to Pattern Analser). Omega Leader is wonderful bait and a good closer.

TIE/sf Fighter: · "Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise missiles (3)
Fire Control System (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

TIE/sf Fighter: · "Quickdraw" (29)
Adaptability (Increase) (0)
Cruise missiles (3)
Fire Control System (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

TIE/fo Fighter: · "Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)
-- TOTAL ------- 99p. --