I've been reading all of the posts regarding Rieekan, Yavaris, et al., since Worlds, and I've decided to take a temporary break from my thematic play style to try to create an Imperial counter to the general. At the very least I think the exercise will be fun and perhaps give me some more insight into a play style that is different from mine. So, I'm looking for some guidance/help specifically relating to tournament orientated Rieekan builds and objective cards.

I'm attempting to reconstruct the two lists for the Worlds final using as my sources the infographic FFG provided prior to the final match as well as the video of the final match. Below is my reconstruction of both lists. I have freelanced upgrades where no information was available for the GR75 transports; the upgrade is underlined. I would appreciate some feedback regarding my freelancing.

Nathan's List:

(400pts)

Rieekan

MC30c Torpedo - Admonition, Ord Experts, Assault Prot Torps

Neb B Escort - Yavaris, Fighter Coord Team, Flight Commander

GR75 Med - Bright Hope, Toryn Farr, Comms Net

GR75 Med - Boosted Comms, Bomber Com Center

GR75 Med - Boosted Comms, Bomber Com Center

Biggs

Wedge

Jan

Ten

Norra

Dagger

Gold

YT-1300

Norm's List:

(397 pts)

Rieekan

Assault Frig MK 2 B - Gallant Haven, Toryn Farr

Neb B Escort - Yavaris, Fighter Coord Team, Flight Commander

GR75 Combat - Adar Tallon

GR75 Med - Boosted Comms

GR75 Med - Boosted Comms

Luke

Ten

Dutch

Corran

Dagger

Gold

VCX 100 (2)

I intend to use both lists during my experiments with an Imperial opponent, and I will deploy each fleet as they were by Nathan and Norm. If you'd like to suggest an alternative Rieekan list for me, I would be very willing to try that also. Deployment may depend on the objective, which brings me to the second part of the info I'm looking for. The objective for the final match was Superior Positions. What additional objectives are well suited for a Rieekan build? I'd like to test at least two more in addition to Superior Positions.

Thanks in advance for your input.

MW and PIC (with VCXs) or HA (with MC30).

You can't really just deploy how they did in the finals, though. Deployment is a big part of the game--it dictates your strategic options, and is a back and forth with the opponent, adapting to where he's placing his units. You can't just cookie-cutter it and expect every game to work the same. There's a reason deployment advantage and P2 SP/SC is such a big advantage...

9 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

You can't really just deploy how they did in the finals, though. Deployment is a big part of the game--it dictates your strategic options, and is a back and forth with the opponent, adapting to where he's placing his units. You can't just cookie-cutter it and expect every game to work the same. There's a reason deployment advantage and P2 SP/SC is such a big advantage...

I am my own opponent. I have no one in my local area with whom I can meet and play. So, I have to make due using their deployments for Superior Positions for testing against my Imperial build. I don't want to inadvertently stack the deck in favor of my experiment by placing the Rebel ships in a biased deployment. I will probably look at some of the Rieekan battle videos on YouTube for additional deployment options. It's the best I can do given my circumstances to replicate the conditions of competitive play.

The way this list plays vs an Imperial opponent is very defensive. You need solid defensive objectives that you can exploit to make him come to you.

6 minutes ago, Admiral WigT said:

I am my own opponent. I have no one in my local area with whom I can meet and play. So, I have to make due using their deployments for Superior Positions for testing against my Imperial build. I don't want to inadvertently stack the deck in favor of my experiment by placing the Rebel ships in a biased deployment. I will probably look at some of the Rieekan battle videos on YouTube for additional deployment options. It's the best I can do given my circumstances to replicate the conditions of competitive play.

I am incredibly saddened to hear that. Are you sure that you can't find local players, at least once a month or so? It looks like you are in New York, I know for a fact that there are New York players who aren't in Manhattan.

21 minutes ago, Admiral WigT said:

I am my own opponent. I have no one in my local area with whom I can meet and play. So, I have to make due using their deployments for Superior Positions for testing against my Imperial build. I don't want to inadvertently stack the deck in favor of my experiment by placing the Rebel ships in a biased deployment. I will probably look at some of the Rieekan battle videos on YouTube for additional deployment options. It's the best I can do given my circumstances to replicate the conditions of competitive play.

Ugh, rough situation. Vassal/Tabletop Simulator an option for you, maybe?

7 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

The way this list plays vs an Imperial opponent is very defensive. You need solid defensive objectives that you can exploit to make him come to you.

I am incredibly saddened to hear that. Are you sure that you can't find local players, at least once a month or so? It looks like you are in New York, I know for a fact that there are New York players who aren't in Manhattan.

I'm near Syracuse. I've looked for other players repeatedly. I know of one player just west of Rochester, but it's a 90 minute drive and I'm a busy guy...work, grad school, and president of a local nonprofit historical society. I don't mind the solo play...its relaxing. The forums are my connection to the community. I appreciate that and I enjoy reading the posts and learning from all the great admirals here.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Ugh, rough situation. Vassal/Tabletop Simulator an option for you, maybe?

I've not looked into it, so maybe. It will depend on the tech requirements..I'm not exactly up to date.

27 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

The way this list plays vs an Imperial opponent is very defensive. You need solid defensive objectives that you can exploit to make him come to you.

I did get the impression from many of the conversations since Worlds that Rieekan has a strong offensive component. It lead me to think of him as the inverse of the standard Imperial/Rebel paradigm of brute force/hit and run. So, I'm approaching my Imperial build from a Rebel point of view. I absolutely agree with you in regards to defensive objectives and making Rieekan come to me. I also need to find a way to break up the squadron ball.

Typical objectives Rieekan lists bring are:

• Precision Strike
• Fighter Ambush (though this can work negatively for them as well)
• Superior Positions/Solar Corona

Rieekan comes in many flavors so I honestly wouldn't worry about reproducing a list perfectly. All the elements are there: GR75s with BCC, Toryn, Yavaris, etc. Pelta vs AFMKIIb and the exact squadrons you bring can differ list by list. I would say Nathan's list is closer to the standard Rieekan list these days.

The two big considerations when facing a Rieekan fleet are:

• Do I focus on his squadrons?
• ...or do I go for his carriers first?

This will be highly dependent on your own list.

If you've never played against a squadron ball before with a Biggs + YT1300 Biggs Ball, roll some dice against it in a practice session and see how long this blood bag lasts...

Just check where the damage is coming from.

First source: Squadrons
Second source: Mark II or MC30.

For the first part:
Eighter you take out the squadrons, or you take out the ships that activate them. But the last part is hard, when there are 3 transporters flying around.
If you have a strong anti squadron list, that can handle or take out the ace ball, you might have no strong list against someone who dont has squadrons (untill Sloane comes out....).
So this gives only the option to take out the ships. First the Yavaris (if you are able to get in range).
If the list has VCX with relay, take these out (if able). No relay means most of the time that they are out of range to activate the squadrons. And the VCX are not unique, so they are not protected by Rieekan. But the VCX will normaly hide to far away (distance 1-3 for relay is really bad).

For the second part:
This is harder. The Admo and the Mark II can tank really well. So taking them out can take some time.

14 hours ago, IronCondor said:

I would say Nathan's list is closer to the standard Rieekan list these days.

The two big considerations when facing a Rieekan fleet are:

• Do I focus on his squadrons?
• ...or do I go for his carriers first?

This will be highly dependent on your own list.

If you've never played against a squadron ball before with a Biggs + YT1300 Biggs Ball, roll some dice against it in a practice session and see how long this blood bag lasts...

Honestly, I find myself liking Nathan's list more than Norm's, but I don't know why. The list does look very similar to some of the lists I've seen in these forums...maybe that explains my reaction.

I'm definitely going to explore my options in regards to strategy and the considerations that you identify definitely frame everything. I can see pros and cons for both. I'm still developing my list, and its being guided by my thoughts of Rieekan as an inverse of the standard Imperial/Rebel paradigm. So, I'm thinking defensive but capable of striking quickly when the need arises.

I have played with a Rhymerball but not a Biggs Ball, so your suggestion of practice against it will be taken and definitely acted upon.

13 hours ago, Tokra said:

If you have a strong anti squadron list, that can handle or take out the ace ball, you might have no strong list against someone who dont has squadrons (untill Sloane comes out....).
So this gives only the option to take out the ships. First the Yavaris (if you are able to get in range).

I think the Yavaris is definitely a high priority target based on what I've read about it and what I've seen on the Worlds video. I've also noticed that this can be a challenge as it's in the best interest of the Rieekan player to keep that ship alive as long as possible. Losing the double tap would definitely weaken the effectiveness of the squadron ball.

kill the ship with him in it first

55 minutes ago, ouzel said:

kill the ship with him in it first

Shooting the zombie in the head always puts the zombie down.

Im in Mass but I may end up near syracuse for work next wednesday-thursday. If you know of a local gaming place I'd be happy to meet up and play a game or two with you.

11 hours ago, Rune Taq said:

Im in Mass but I may end up near syracuse for work next wednesday-thursday. If you know of a local gaming place I'd be happy to meet up and play a game or two with you.

I will message you.

@Ardaedhel, @thecactusman17, @IronCondor, @Tokra, @ouzel

Thank you all for your input. My Imperial list is ready for testing. I'll be playing it as second player against the Rieekan list I reconstructed for Nathan using Superior Positions, Most Wanted, and Hyperspace Assault as my first three test objectives.

"The Rieekan Iceberg:"

(399 points)

Admiral Motti

ISD I - Relentless, Minister Tua, Ordnance Experts, Reinforced Blast Doors, Rapid Launch Bays, Quad Laser Turrets, XX-9 Turbolasers, MS-1 Ion Cannon

Raider I Corvette - Instigator, Director Isard, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers

Raider I Corvette - Impetuous, Agent Kallus, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers

Maarek Stele

Tie Defender Squadron

Tie Defender Squadron

VT-49 Decimator

VT-49 Decimator

1 hour ago, Admiral WigT said:

@Ardaedhel, @thecactusman17, @IronCondor, @Tokra, @ouzel

Thank you all for your input. My Imperial list is ready for testing. I'll be playing it as second player against the Rieekan list I reconstructed for Nathan using Superior Positions, Most Wanted, and Hyperspace Assault as my first three test objectives.

"The Rieekan Iceberg:"

(399 points)

Admiral Motti

ISD I - Relentless, Minister Tua, Ordnance Experts, Reinforced Blast Doors, Rapid Launch Bays, Quad Laser Turrets, XX-9 Turbolasers, MS-1 Ion Cannon

Raider I Corvette - Instigator, Director Isard, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers

Raider I Corvette - Impetuous, Agent Kallus, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers

Maarek Stele

Tie Defender Squadron

Tie Defender Squadron

VT-49 Decimator

VT-49 Decimator

My first impression is:

• Wow, those are some upgraded Raiders. Expanded Launchers are very expensive upgrades for them. Why not just go Flechettes + Ordnance Experts and save the points for squadrons or flotillas?
• VT 49s are heavy and don't help lock down fighter balls. Why not just run a ball of Defenders instead?
• Director Isard seems like a waste of points. If you're playing a Rieekan fleet it's pretty easy to guess what commands his ships will be doing.
• You probably want at least 4-5 activations just to stay competitive. An extra Gozanti or two with its squadron 2 and Comms Net would be immensely useful.

25 minutes ago, IronCondor said:

My first impression is:

• Wow, those are some upgraded Raiders. Expanded Launchers are very expensive upgrades for them. Why not just go Flechettes + Ordnance Experts and save the points for squadrons or flotillas?
• VT 49s are heavy and don't help lock down fighter balls. Why not just run a ball of Defenders instead?
• Director Isard seems like a waste of points. If you're playing a Rieekan fleet it's pretty easy to guess what commands his ships will be doing.
• You probably want at least 4-5 activations just to stay competitive. An extra Gozanti or two with its squadron 2 and Comms Net would be immensely useful.

The Raiders, the VT-49's and Isard are all part of a specific strategy I have floating around in my head. I need the extra teeth that the Expanded Launchers give, that is why I selected them over the Flechettes.

I gave some thought to matching the activations, but then decided against it for two reasons. First, since I am testing an Imperial build and I want to find its limits, I decided to give the Rebel fleet a bit of an advantage, so to speak. It's a focus on quality versus quantity. Secondly, I don't always match activations when I play thematically. It forces me to give more thought to strategy, and it inspires innovation. I think those are part of the equation to finding a solution to Rieekan.

That being said, if this test list fails miserably I will take your suggestions into consideration when I build "The Rieekan Iceberg 2.0."

The bane to the Rieekan Titanic... Hahaha

You don't have nearly enough activations to run those raiders without them getting flat out leveled. That would be my criticism. Raiders, more than any other ship, need last to not die.

On 5/17/2017 at 1:38 AM, thecactusman17 said:

The way this list plays vs an Imperial opponent is very defensive. You need solid defensive objectives that you can exploit to make him come to you.

I am incredibly saddened to hear that. Are you sure that you can't find local players, at least once a month or so? It looks like you are in New York, I know for a fact that there are New York players who aren't in Manhattan.

Seems like most new york players arent in manhattan. Even the guys i find to play with me dont live in manhattan.

For your ISD I, though, you have a blue crit upgrade, but only 3 blue dice in your entire armament including the rear hull zone. That is a waste of points, even if it's only thematic playing.

Another thing is that you appear to be splitting your concentration on the 2 strategies–going for squadrons versus going for ships. Your raiders are heavily upgraded as ship killers, but you've also thrown in a lot of anti squadron options.

The instigator title paired with your squadron cover will be good for keeping the bombers off of your ships for at least the first round of contact, but Rieekan Aces, particularly Dutch/Wedge, excel at mopping up squadrons. I've killed Maarek on the first round before.

So I think it could work. Just my thoughts.

4 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

Seems like most new york players arent in manhattan. Even the guys i find to play with me dont live in manhattan.

There does not seem to be many players around the Finger Lakes region. I know Buffalo has a few, but that is two hours from where I am. My guess is that they're all either in the Hudson Valley or in the Southern Tier.

If you ever want to meet at one of the stores in Albany send me a message. Early saturday or sunday tends to be what works for me.