13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Has anyone tried Tie Punishers in Epic?

We have and I personally enjoy them. They, like Y-wings, TIE Bombers, T-65 X-wings, TIE fighters, B-Wings, K-Fighters, etc. work well in Epic against one another as long as cancer is kept out (basic top Meta ships). We find, for the points, TIE Bombers are all around better for Epic lists however. Now we did implement Epic "House Rules" to get classics and unused back in the game that help. Here's a few: 1) Punishers get (2) extra munitions tokens on all secondary weapons and can choose 1 round per game where they can make (2) simultaneous secondary weapons in one attack. 2) T-65s may load (1) Torpedo at zero cost. 3) Y-Wings may load Ion Bombs and (1) Extra Munitions token at zero cost. 4) B-Wings may reduce cost of Secondary Weapon upgrades by (3), but if Cannons are added, no other Secondary Weapon may be loaded. 5) A-Wings may add a Proton Rocket at zero cost. 6) Kihraxze just get the GFH upgrade as that's as good as we once had. 7) TIE Bombers may include any Bomb upgrades and reduce each by (3) points and add (1) Extra Munitions token per Bomb Upgrade at zero cost. 8) TIE Fighters may choose once per game where all red dice of TIEs at range one of each other can be rolled at one time as one attack at a single target (now that's a swarm attack, dodge that haha).

In Epic I'd expec UGR Punishers and BOmbers to be pretty terrifying. They're among the best pure jousting value ships at the moment, it's just that they have limited dials and aren't that good at keeping time on target.

Bring 9 of them though, and they're a lot scarier.

More of an Epic fix than a Punisher buff but I think Epic ships should reduce damage suffered from small or large base primary weapons or turret secondary weapons by 1. Would incentivize (i spelled that right you dumb forum software) using munitions against capital ships which makes sense.

Punisher only System upgrade: Advanced Munitions Guidance System: When attacking with a missile or torpedo secondary weapon, the defender may not add evade results to their role. Take that ya smelly wookiees!

I could get on board with that. Call it 'Upgraded Homing Chips' for the HOming MIssiles reference.

12 hours ago, ABXY said:

I really like how they designed the Star Wing with the different Cannon vs Ordnance variants, so here is a blending various ideas:

TIE/IT-a

TIE Punisher only. Title.

Once per round when attacking with a [Torpedo] or [Missile] secondary weapon you may discard 1 other [Torpedo] or [Missile] Upgrade card to add one [Critical] result to your roll.

TIE/IT-s

TIE Punisher only. Title.

When dropping a bomb without the 'Action' header, you must place two of the appropriate tokens. One token must be placed using the 1 [left bank] template and the other token with 1 [right bank] template.

Extended Launch Tubes

(Bomb)

TIE/IT-a only. Limited.

When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped [Torpedo] and [Missile] Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard an ordnance token on that card instead.

Expanded Bomb Bay

(Missile)

TIE/IT-s only. Limited.

When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped [Bomb] Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard an ordnance token on that card instead.

Auto -Reactive Shielding

(System)

TIE Punisher and B-Wing only

The first time you are attacked each round, you must assign a Reinforce token to your ship. If the attacker is in your Primary arc it must be a Reinforce Fore token, otherwise it must be a Reinforce Aft token.

You may equip one additional System Upgrade.

(but I think this is too much text???)

Auto-Reactive Shielding might also be a decent system upgrade for any ship with shields. I think giving it a prerequisite of " Small Ship only. Shield Value greater than 1 " would be a good requirement, so it not available on the Virago, Upsilon, U-Wing, Ghost, (Scum)Aggressor, or Lambda, but it would be available on the TIE Advanced, Special Forces TIE, G1A, Punisher, B-Wing, TIE Phantom, E-wing and the upcoming TIE Reaper. Thematically, it makes the least sense on an E-wing or Phantom, but every ship it would be available to (with the exception of the Special Forces TIE and the Havoc) could use a little boost.

On 2/21/2018 at 9:50 PM, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

This sums it up well.

Bombers = disposable, cheap, alpha strike (although with Unguided Rockets they make good frontline)
Gunboats = versatile (good burst, sustained, and maneuverability for bargain price)
Punisher = heavy (hard-hitting and durable) and expensive

The way I would go about it is giving Punishers a permanent Reinforce but only in their 90 degree primary firing arc as others have mentioned. This gives them the durability they need while still allowing them to get outplayed... just flank them to disable their bonus.

But let's be real here... even that won't be enough. They'll also need something similar to the Vaksai title to lower the cost of all upgrades and/or some form of infinite ordnance like the reload action and/or an EPT on the higher skill pilots.

I've seen a few people suggest that reinforce only work in arc for them but I think that's a mistake, they are already fairly easy to arc dodge so it wouldn't really help them much at all but forcing your opponent to choose between escaping your arc and getting an unreinforced shot has a lot of strategic implications.

On 2/24/2018 at 11:17 PM, Princezilla said:

I've seen a few people suggest that reinforce only work in arc for them but I think that's a mistake, they are already fairly easy to arc dodge so it wouldn't really help them much at all but forcing your opponent to choose between escaping your arc and getting an unreinforced shot has a lot of strategic implications.

It does have a lot of strategic implications. That's kind of the point? And... why are you talking it being a bad idea if it's weak to arc-dodging? The front-arc reinforce is to help the Punisher joust better, to do what it's suppose to do while still being fair. It's totally cool for it to have a weakness that's not just a stat-check but rather a form of counter-play that an enemy can exploit by simply flying better. Plus, the ones that arc-dodge generally have lower damage output, so it's usually not going to melt instantly unless you're completely outplayed and flanked by their whole list.

Since this is the absolute best forum title... is it time to bring this thread back? Has anyone been flying Bayonetta lately?

I feel like I haven't seen any of these other than Redline on the table this spring. Are they really that bad already?

(Couldn't find a single forum-appropriate gif of a "Punish Attack" but you get the idea)

Price changes to torps hurt them.

But don't worry, Angled Deflectors and Passive Sensors are coming, the Punishers will RIDE AGAIN.

E: and Plasma Torps.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Price changes to torps hurt them.

But don't worry, Angled Deflectors and Passive Sensors are coming, the Punishers will RIDE AGAIN.

E: and Plasma Torps.

Do you think Redline will go up? Because right now it sort of seems like the chassis has that common problem where the highest init named pilot is by far the most useful. I guess Passive is good for not worrying so much about getting locks but i5 is still super useful and that ability is bonkers

10 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Do you think Redline will go up? Because right now it sort of seems like the chassis has that common problem where the highest init named pilot is by far the most useful. I guess Passive is good for not worrying so much about getting locks but i5 is still super useful and that ability is bonkers

Eh....

I think it's more the common problem of I 5 being too cheap or the opposite (see also: Sith infiltrator; the non-force users are utter jokes for their inflated costs)

Either way, Deathrain has an amazing ability but is STUPID expensive especially with the inflated trajectory simulator cost

For the generic, passive Sensors will alleviate the need for higher I. It'll probably be all for not-much at a 38 starting cost, though

Finally, fuses may eliminate the need for the WAY too expensive Ablative Plating.

The ARC may be my baby, but Deathrain is my man (phrasing!) and by far my favorite pilot. I hope these upgrades and point update do him justice

17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Do you think Redline will go up? Because right now it sort of seems like the chassis has that common problem where the highest init named pilot is by far the most useful. I guess Passive is good for not worrying so much about getting locks but i5 is still super useful and that ability is bonkers

I think Redline gets a whole bunch of new toys, and the usability of hum really depends on how good those toys are in terms of price.

16 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Do you think Redline will go up?

No, he and the other Punisher pilots should get a point decrease if FFG holds to their typical "up" when good, "down" when bad approach. I do think they will keep Trajectory Simulator and Proton Torps will hold at their previous increase.

16 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I hope these upgrades and point update do him justice

I do think the designers want Punishers to be field-able at top-ish tables and they will get some respite from the slightly heavy-handed increase they received before.

16 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think Redline gets a whole bunch of new toys, and the usability of hum really depends on how good those toys are in terms of price.

The toys do help, but they will be priced accordingly, so the chassis simply has to come down so they could make moderate sense in fielding without upgrades, akin to a B-Wing chassis in usability, kinda?

Passive Sensors will allow the lowest generic to be good.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

No, he and the other Punisher pilots should get a point decrease if FFG holds to their typical "up" when good, "down" when bad approach. I do think they will keep Trajectory Simulator and Proton Torps will hold at their previous increase.

If he gets a decrease, it should be small. In general, I think the problem is how common I5 is right now, notably from some underpriced Resistance aces and Whisper/Duchess. A fix to I5 will make Redline more playable. I definitely could see TrajSim go down 2 ponts as it's basically never played right now. AS will probably come down a little too. Proton Torps is probably fine (maybe it could lose 1-2 points) and will present a better but more expensive alternative to Plasma. We'll see how that one shakes out.

I want a price decrease so that I legally can run my 3-fives list legally: Proton Torps Redline, Juke Brath, and Juke Whisper. (sorry @heychadwick about the dark lady and the nightmares she gave you so many years ago)

22 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If he gets a decrease, it should be small. In general, I think the problem is how common I5 is right now, notably from some underpriced Resistance aces and Whisper/Duchess. A fix to I5 will make Redline more playable. I definitely could see TrajSim go down 2 ponts as it's basically never played right now. AS will probably come down a little too. Proton Torps is probably fine (maybe it could lose 1-2 points) and will present a better but more expensive alternative to Plasma. We'll see how that one shakes out.

Agree here, some of the dirt cheap 5's are kind of annoying (Duchess, Lulo, etc...)

I think Adv Sens should be scaled, maybe at 11-12 for I6 and go down 2-3 points per I value. I would also like to see Guri and Corran swap point values, I've played them both and would take Guri over Corran every single day even at the same cost.

I also think Vader and Scum Fenn should probably swap point values, Fearless at 2 seems fairer too.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

Agree here, some of the dirt cheap 5's are kind of annoying (Duchess, Lulo, etc...)

Agreed, though I think Scourge and Mauler are perfect where they're at. Howl should go up 4 points and the generic TIEs should drop substantially.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

I think Adv Sens should be scaled, maybe at 11-12 for I6 and go down 2-3 points per I value.

Disagree quite a bit here. If the aces are paying for their initiative (as in really paying for it), it's not that big a deal. AS has the not-inconsequential downside of limiting you to only 1 action per activation. The problem is that what it should scale by really isn't initiative at all . Think about it: Why should Saw Gerrera pay as much for Advanced Sensors as 4-LOM does? His chassis gets use out of it when he pulls reds, but it's not the crazy-awesome synergy that 4-LOM has. Or why should poor Quiz pay as much as freaking GURI for Advanced Sensors? Or why should Vader have to pay even more when it completely negates his ability?

Unfortunately, aggressive Initiative scaling isn't the answer (I could see going up 1 point per I value, but no more). The only thing is really to price the aces based on what they're really capable of (with or without upgrades), which probably means upping Guri's base cost and 4-LOM but letting Corran and Saw have a good deal on it. It's sad because it kind of locks her into taking it, but in all honesty there's no other Sensor she really wants anyway unless the list is really that point-starved, in which case she may still not take it.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

I would also like to see Guri and Corran swap point values, I've played them both and would take Guri over Corran every single day even at the same cost.

100% agree. AS Guri is hands-down the best arc-dodger in the game, over Soontir, over Poe, over Duchess, Vader, Anakin, everyone. She's basically god-tier and her only weakness is that I5 can be beaten by I6. Corran isn't seeing much play but he could be so cool for a little cheaper or with a little less competition.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

I also think Vader and Scum Fenn should probably swap point values, Fearless at 2 seems fairer too.

Just up Vader to Fenn's price and problem solved. Fenn is great. All I6s should be hard-to-get expensive to where large bids aren't necessary because they're rare enough as-is.

54 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Just up Vader to Fenn's price

This just hurts.

....and you typed it even.

pretty sure Vader is cheaper simply because he can't boost (no, afterburners don't count cause they're charge-limited and extra $$$)

whether or not he needs to go up...eh probably, but I personally won't invest much arguement because I haven't experienced him that much

I do know, however, that Holdo is gon' troll the FORCE outta him

20 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This just hurts.

....and you typed it even.

I6 is way too easy to get. Vader is too cheap, and Soontir could probably go up a little too. As should Duchess, L'ulo, Nien, Ello, Thane, Howl, Teroch, Guri, and others. They're ubiquitous because they get a whole lot of value for their cost.

Similarly, many generics and especially many I3-4 named pilots should go down in price. I'd like to see a world where each pilot gets used a similar amount (except the obvious thematic favorites that will always be used a bit more). Aggressive high-Initiative-scaling is the only way to accomplish that.

Could Punishers benefit from a more distinct loadout? Right now, they're basically Bombers with some dial/action tweaks and a sensor slot. As Torpedo/Missile platforms, they're outperformed by Os-1 Star Wings.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

pretty sure Vader is cheaper simply because he can't boost (no, afterburners don't count cause they're charge-limited and extra $$$)

whether or not he needs to go up...eh probably, but I personally won't invest much arguement because I haven't experienced him that much

I do know, however, that Holdo is gon' troll the FORCE outta him

Fenn also has the not-insignificant benefits of five red dice and four green dice when the attack range is 1, plus the guaranteed evade result if he's in the r1 primary arc.

1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:

Fenn also has the not-insignificant benefits of five red dice and four green dice when the attack range is 1, plus the guaranteed evade result if he's in the r1 primary arc.

Oph! Quite right!

That's a difficult benefit to overstate, ESPECIALLY given I 6 for Initiative killing and arc dodging purposes

4 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

some dial/action tweaks and a sensor slot

Very significant changes, especially:

• Boost and linked boost-lock

• White reload

• Sensor slot once PS is out and TrajSim comes down a little.

Also access to named pilots of a very different sort. Deathrain is so much better than Deathfire and Redline is bonkers over Tomax.

By themselves very good reasons to take a punisher over a Bomber.

Don't think we'll see any loadout changes

Punishers basically are bigger bombers with a system slot and boost (though those are already massive differences) and, as Moser pointed out, their pilot abilities be craye. Deathrain and adv. Sensors on Redline (who is uniquely structured to circumvent their limitations) make them surprisingly mobile and good at kturning while still farting out modified ordnance

Passive sensors will soon give Punishers the distinct honor of ferrying TL ordnance without the need for Jendon

Boats can too, of course, but sensors don't play nice with adv slam so we're gonna need some testing! Their manueverability is completely different to the punisher's however, so there's some clear distinction

Also punishers are medium bases, which I hold as a MASSIVE weakness for the clunky Arc but which doesn't hinder the more mobile (re: boost) punisher. They make fine blockers in a pinch